Why pray to Mary AND the saints?

[TimothyH]

Yes, apologies for not explaining myself properly.

I have no issue with all graces being dispensed via Our Lady, indeed I believe it, but that is simply saying that Our Lord is the head, Our Lady is the neck and such forth, it is of necessity due to the mystical body.

But if we take it as St Alphonsus suggests that would mean that the saints cannot even have direct access to God, that instead they must go via Our Lady, that is that they must ask her and not God, that seems to rend apart the communion of saints. Instead of the Church Glorious praying for us and we to them, as well as God, it would appear that we must pray to them and they to Our Lady and our Lady to our Lord. In a word we need an intercessor (a saint) with an intercessor (our Lady) with God. That is just a step too far, of course the saints praise and glory with Our Lady and sing her praises and in hers Gods, but to say that they can do nothing of themselves, that when they see go see god they are told ‘Ite ad Maria’ that I cannot believe. It also rends apart the communion of saints because it renders the communion of saints pointless, we need not pray to saints we need merely pray to Our Lady (though God forbid that anyone say such a thing) and our prayers will be answered. The communion of saints is no longer a communion of saints but instead it becomes the cult of Mary and Our Lord.

So if I understand, praying to saints would be pointless since all prayers go through Mary anyway? Is this correct?

I confess that I don’t have an answer. Can you point to the work of St. Alphonsus which states this. I would like to persue it myself.

-Tim-

 

[jmj1984]

So if I understand, praying to saints would be pointless since all prayers go through Mary anyway? Is this correct?

I confess that I don’t have an answer. Can you point to the work of St. Alphonsus which states this. I would like to persue it myself.

-Tim-

No, thats not what I mean. What I am saying is that if all the saints do is go and ask Mary for graces the entire economy of grace, the communion of saints is turned upside down. Its in the glories of Mary p146 in the edition I have (Tan books).

Of course Graces come through Mary but that is quite a seperate thing from saying that all the saints do when we pray to them is ask Mary for graces, they ask God and it comes via Mary and thence through them to us.

 

[TrueLight]

No, thats not what I mean. What I am saying is that if all the saints do is go and ask Mary for graces the entire economy of grace, the communion of saints is turned upside down. Its in the glories of Mary p146 in the edition I have (Tan books).

Of course Graces come through Mary but that is quite a seperate thing from saying that all the saints do when we pray to them is ask Mary for graces, they ask God and it comes via Mary and thence through them to us.

I look at it this way. I don’t agree with what every Saint says. So I’ll read some things and think, “This really speaks to me. It really makes sense to me.”

Then I’ll read something else and think, “I don’t know about that”, and then I move on.

 

[TimothyH]

I realize that certain great saints have written wonderful texts full of imagery and prose extolling the many virtues and benefits of Mary - and deservedly so - BUT, these texts need to be read carefully, fully and by persons who are spiritually ready to deal with the deep and complex concepts they present.

Too many people - even good and sincere Catholics, can be easily misled by some of these writing and these concepts. Most of us really need to concentrate on a very simple faith and leave the details to God.

We should always face challenges to our faith and seek answers to questions which come our way.

We learn about things we love - cars and sports teams - and God is no different. We want to learn about God and his Kingdom because we love God, and we shouldn’t discourage people from exploring and learning about their faith because they may face a complex issue or because someone else doesn’t think it is important.

Holiness and knowledge of God is not just for a select few. Many of us are smarter than we are given credit for and many of us are more spiritually ready to read these works than we are given credit for. The whole reason for the Second Vatican Council was to open the Church to the world, to give the entire world the benefit of the teaching of the Church. The Church realized that many of the people in the pews were more educated than the priests and theologians who were teaching them, and the Church responded by opening itself to the world. And that is part of the reason for CAF, so that we can encourage each other and help each other, to ask questions and learn and grow in our faith.

I would like to encourage the OP and sincerly hope he finds the truth. The truth always leads to greater love of and unity with God.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

We should always face challenges to our faith and seek answers to questions which come our way.

While I certainly can’t disagree with this statement I believe I can say that some “challenges” are more necessary than others. Even a “simple faith” can be extremely challenging to put into practice…Something I have a lot of experience with…for I struggle…

We learn about things we love - cars and sports teams - and God is no different. We want to learn about God and his Kingdom because we love God, and we shouldn’t discourage people from exploring and learning about their faith because they may face a complex issue or because someone else doesn’t think it is important.

I agree but at the same time the exploration and learning should be undertaken in an orderly fashion and, if possible, under some guidance.
Different people are drawn to different expressions of faith. Certain saints can be very helpful to some while other saints can be very difficult to understand. Too often we can be confused or misunderstand something we read and find ourselves in error…Again, this is something I have some personal experience with.

Holiness and knowledge of God is not just for a select few.

Agreed, Holiness is not restricted to the “select few”, and neither is “knowledge” but let’s not confuse the two either…Some of the greatest saints are also the simplest. In fact one might say that the most profound knowledge is most often the simplest. Look at the great and profound teachings of Christ in the Gospels. Can anyone doubt the wisdom and wealth of knowledge they contain? Yet they are simple. The simplest of teachings…

Many of us are smarter than we are given credit for and many of us are more spiritually ready to read these works than we are given credit for. The whole reason for the Second Vatican Council was to open the Church to the world, to give the entire world the benefit of the teaching of the Church. The Church realized that many of the people in the pews were more educated than the priests and theologians who were teaching them, and the Church responded by opening itself to the world. And that is part of the reason for CAF, so that we can encourage each other and help each other, to ask questions and learn and grow in our faith.

I hope that you were not insulted by my post. I never meant to infer that most people are not very smart.
My point is that in studying these matters, it is important to approach the matter in an orderly manner. AND it is crucial to have a good and solid grounding in the basics so that one does not get tripped up by some of the imagery, analogies, and other such literary devises used by authors who may well have been writing hundreds if not thousands of years ago to audiences with very different cultural outlooks.

The simple truths that I expressed in my post should serve as comfort to all and a check on understanding so that one not become confused by the more complex ides being expressed.

I would like to encourage the OP and sincerely hope he finds the truth. The truth always leads to greater love of and unity with God.

I second that

Peace
James