Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

[Sue_Denim]

I’ve never seen a Christmas tree on an Altar, is that a “baptist thing” ( I see you are a former Baptist)

It’s not necessarily a Baptist thing, in fact, the Baptist church I belonged to would cringe at the idea that there was any tree other than the cross. I’m just using Baptist generally to summarize my faith journey, otherwise I would be a series of hyphenates. That’s my fault and I apologize for not being more specific.

Back to my original quote. Altar is the wrong word. I guess I’m looking for a word that would mean “pastor’s place before the congregation”.

ETA: Thank you for the welcomes and I’m not trying to take things off-topic, just add clarity to my previous post.

 

[JRKH]

It’s not necessarily a Baptist thing, in fact, the Baptist church I belonged to would cringe at the idea that there was any tree other than the cross. I’m just using Baptist generally to summarize my faith journey, otherwise I would be a series of hyphenates. That’s my fault and I apologize for not being more specific.

Sue,
No problem…My comment was somewhat “tongue in cheek”

Back to my original quote. Altar is the wrong word. I guess I’m looking for a word that would mean “pastor’s place before the congregation”.

Is “sanctuary” a better word? The area up by and around the Altar?
In our parish we have a “Christmas Tree” of sorts in the sanctuary area. Off to the left side as you are facing the Altar. It’s actually more of a backdrop for the Nativity scene. No ornaments but many small clear lights representing the night sky.
We do have some other christmas trees but these are at the entrances and are “make a wish” trees to help needy folks.

ETA: Thank you for the welcomes and I’m not trying to take things off-topic, just add clarity to my previous post.

You are welcome. I hope that your time here is a profitable to you as it has been to me.

Peace
James

 

[Tiberius1701]

Also, although the Body of Christ has been mentioned in passing, its reality is often overlooked or under-realized. I’ve heard many people object to asking the Saints in Glory for intercession by citing the verse that says that Jesus is the “One Mediator between God and men” (1 Tim. 2:5). The Catholic Church does not not ignore this verse, it shouts “Amen!” to it. But, that leaves the question, if only Jesus is the mediator, how can we ask God for anything? I mean, you and I, here on earth? If only Jesus can mediate, then, only Jesus can ask God for anything. Yet every Christian - Protestant and Catholic - I’ve ever met not only asks God for help, but also asks other Christians to pray to God for them. Too many don’t see the disconnected logic here. They ask, “how can we ‘go past’ Jesus to the Saints?” but they don’t ask, “how can we ‘go past’ Jesus to our fellow Christians?”

It’s the exact same answer in both cases: we don’t “go past” Christ. We are Christ (through our Baptism)! “For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into One Body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of One Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:12-13). Through Baptism, something really does happen: we become - in a radically real way - the very Body of Christ. This is not a euphemism, nor is it a catchy phrase to show our vague, friendly commeraderie. This is Truth! And that is why we can pray to God - be it to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit - both on behalf of ourselves and on behalf of others.

Christ is the One Mediator… And We Are Christ by our Baptism! Thus, we have the courage to pray. And we neither cease to be the True Body of Christ when we pass from this life and go on to Purgatory and eventual Heavenly Bliss (or, for the blessed few, go straight to the Heavenly Throne) nor do we truly die. If we are alive in Christ here, then they are far more alive in Heaven! Life comes through union with God, and the Saints are fully united to God, so they are far more alive than we are. So, if we, by our Baptism, have the power to pray through the sole mediation of Christ, then how much more do those who are not simply united with Him through Baptism, but are completely united with Him by their having been perfected in the Heavenly Places, with no traces of sin whatsoever to seperate them from God?

 

[hazcompat]

Jer 15:1 Yahweh said to me, 'Even if Moses and Samuel pleaded before me, I could not sympathise with this people! Drive them out of my sight; away with them!

peace

 

[heathernoel]

My relationship with Mary began when my Mom died and I was on my own with my kids (I love my husband, but sometimes a mom needs her mom). I started asking Her for help. Eventually, it was my daughter’s Hail Mary that led me to Mass. I need her help with the kids…she’s my Mother too

 

[zz912]

Simple answer, because Jesus wants us to.

He wants us to be One Body, and One Church. He wants us to pray for each other. Scripture tells us the prayer of a righteous man is powerful. Scripture also tells us if we see a brother commiting a non-mortal (venial) sin, we are to pray for them.

Lots of examples in Scripture of Christians (and Jews in the OT) praying for one another. My memory is bad, but wasn’t there a story of one of the OT fathers asking God not to destroy a city if he could find 100 good people, then 90, then 80, etc etc etc. This is a huge example of someone praying for another.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Oh, there’s also one more, very interesting incident, that people never seem to remember when talking about this topic: the Transfiguration (Matt 17:1-8ff). We’re supposed to be imitators of Christ, right? Well, who was Jesus talking to on that mountain? Wasn’t it Moses (long dead) and Elijah (long assumed into heaven)? Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t those guys qualify as Saints in Heaven? If you want to know why Catholics talk to our forebears who reside with God in Heaven, consider this simple, consise answer: “Because Jesus did it first.”

 

[hazcompat]

Psal 88:8 (89:7) God, awesome in the assembly of holy ones, great and dreaded among all who surround him,

Luke 1:19And the angel answering, said to him: I am Gabriel, who stand before God: and am sent to speak to thee, and to bring thee these good tidings.

Hebrews 12:1 With so many witnesses in a great cloud all around us, we too, then, should throw off everything that weighs us down and the sin that clings so closely, and with perseverance keep running in the race which lies ahead of us.

John 11:25 Jesus said: I am the resurrection. Anyone who believes in me, even though that person dies, will live,

peace

 

[thomasf]

Here is a good reason that I never hear anyone talk about. Some folks have a hard time getting close to Jesus. He kind of scares some people. Or they don’t understand Him, or He’s too much for some people. But who can be afraid of the Holy Mother? She’s kind, loving, and simply said ‘yes’ to God. She’s a mother to us all. And we all love our mother, right? Mary is easy to get close to and love and emulate. She’s the first, best Christian. And we can learn a lot by loving her. The great thing is, the closer we get to her, the closer we get to Jesus. And getting closer to Jesus is the goal, right? So how can a devotion that brings us closer to Jesus be bad?

 

[DrPiano]

Here is a good reason that I never hear anyone talk about. Some folks have a hard time getting close to Jesus. He kind of scares some people. Or they don’t understand Him, or He’s too much for some people. But who can be afraid of the Holy Mother? She’s kind, loving, and simply said ‘yes’ to God. She’s a mother to us all. And we all love our mother, right? Mary is easy to get close to and love and emulate. She’s the first, best Christian. And we can learn a lot by loving her. The great thing is, the closer we get to her, the closer we get to Jesus. And getting closer to Jesus is the goal, right? So how can a devotion that brings us closer to Jesus be bad?

I’ve heard that, but I don’t like to use it. The people I know who question asking Saints for intercession would simply say that if you’re scared of Jesus than you have an improper understanding of him and should be spending MORE time in Scripture and prayer getting to know him.

My mum is a prime example. She’s actually heard the above argument from someone else and it’s made trying to convince her that asking Saints for their intercession is ok even harder. I know of few protestants for whom this would work.

 

[Adonia]

I want to say Thank You to each and everyone of you for responding in such welcoming and pleasant ways! I have now an understanding that has eluded me and can honestly say this was enlightening and very infomative.

I believe that centuries of “wall building” have gone on and the only way we will ever be able to come together in one Faith is to communicate and seek not to destroy one anothers beliefs but rather to understand and leave Faith as it has always been intended…a matter of relationship because in the end that is all that matters.

I will say that I don’t agree with this practice but I appreciate you more knowing why you do, I hope that makes sense.

Thank You and God Bless!

Very well said! While I may not agree with other christian sects’ interpretation of Scripture, I do respect the people in them and their attempt to live holy lives by their belief in Jesus Christ. It is biblical that there are “many parts of the body” and each of them form the whole. Seeing others and their religious faith has helped me in mine. May God bless you too.

 

[KathleenGee]

I tend to agree with Cone137 in that we did not have Protestantism until 500 years ago.

Europe had witnessed the universal church since its beginnings in Ancient Rome, and so people there know their roots, see them…likewise are indifferent to them in this age of secularism. But you don’t see quite the fundamentalism and its issues in regards to Catholicism like you see here in the USA.

I was indifferent myself to Mary growing up, more or less, until I began work with Latin European Catholics – Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish. And it was their day to day devotion and way of relating to Mary – as companion, mother, and most intimate with Jesus – that I began to experience her presence – full of light, but gentle, quiet, no attention to herself for her sake, but only to bring us closer to God and His will as she did on earth.

Contrary to current charges that Emperor Constantine created the Catholic Church, what he did was provide it stature and place in society after almost being totally decimated by the last two Roman emperors. He built large churches with separation of the congregation from the bishops and presbyters in providing physical environment to expound on the message of Christ.

Constantine made Sunday an official day of relaxation as well as honor of Christ for Christians. He himself did not become a Christian, not baptized until so many days before his death. After he died, a million pagans entered the Church, and with them their own customs of veneration of the sacred, including genuflection and statues— but all for the glory of Christ.

God did not create anything evil, but good; God is love. Statues and genuflecting are not bad in themselves.

I finally saw recently the procession of Our Lady of Seville, Spain as a protection against heresies that divide and fracture the body of Christ in His believers. It was most incredible and powerful. But when you look at the divisions in Christianity, I can’t say that is good. People have to realize Christ forgave penitent priests for the wrongs they committed in the Reformation as well.

 

[crazzeto]

I want to say Thank You to each and everyone of you for responding in such welcoming and pleasant ways! I have now an understanding that has eluded me and can honestly say this was enlightening and very infomative.

I believe that centuries of “wall building” have gone on and the only way we will ever be able to come together in one Faith is to communicate and seek not to destroy one anothers beliefs but rather to understand and leave Faith as it has always been intended…a matter of relationship because in the end that is all that matters.

I will say that I don’t agree with this practice but I appreciate you more knowing why you do, I hope that makes sense.

Thank You and God Bless!

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[Nelka]

Hail Mary = rejoice Mary or hello Mary
Full of grace = grace is a freely given gift from God
The Lord is with you = It is God who makes her holy
Blessed are you among women = she holds a special place among all people (Lk 1:42, 48)
Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus = Jesus, the Son of God, makes Mary blessed
Holy Mary, Mother of God = Mary is holy because of her son, Jesus, who is God
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death = what we really as for is her intercession, prayers for us just as we would ask anyone to pray for us.

thereligionteacher.com/do-catholics-worship-mary/

 

[JonNC]

Hail Mary = rejoice Mary or hello Mary
Full of grace = grace is a freely given gift from God
The Lord is with you = It is God who makes her holy
Blessed are you among women = she holds a special place among all people (Lk 1:42, 48)
Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus = Jesus, the Son of God, makes Mary blessed
Holy Mary, Mother of God = Mary is holy because of her son, Jesus, who is God
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death = what we really as for is her intercession, prayers for us just as we would ask anyone to pray for us.

thereligionteacher.com/do-catholics-worship-mary/

This is well said. If one believes that the Blessed Virgin hears our requests for intercession, it makes perfect sense to ask her to intercede for us through her prayers, just as it does to ask those who are alive to do so.
If one doesn’t believe she hears our requests, then, knowing that she prays for the Church Militant in a general way, it makes sense that we pray that God hear their prayers, just as we ask Him to hear ours for others.

Jon

 

[armourbearer]

The Word of God says
“Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.” Proverbs 4:7

To quote my Pastor.
“It’s the relationship that counts and that is all that matters.”

And to quote JRKH
“a simple question can have very complex answers”
(“nail on the head” comes to mind James, thanks.)

I would like to confess some of my new understanding that you all have most graciously bestowed upon me about asking Mary and others for intercession. And for this I truly give Thanks!

1). I no longer believe the practice of asking Mary, the saints and the Apostles to intercede an act of worship by default, I believe it to be a matter of matter of intent.

2). ‘Praying’ is clearly a word that must have its usage clarified to understand the practice in its proper form.

3). I did not realize that asking Mary, the saints or Apostles for their intercession was not a command or an expected practice of the Catholic faith. It is simply based on personal need.

What I have heard from everyone is that this practice is based on the teaching of intercession and the value of the righteous in intercession, so I have studied and prayed and this is where I have ended up.

Asking the intercession of Mary, the saints and Apostles for intercession is not what Jesus had intended. He tells us to intercede and ask for intercession with very clear directions on why we are to seek it (Galatians 5:14 and James 5:16 “that ye may be healed.”), where we are to seek it and the mechanics of intercession (James 5:16, Romans 15:1) and none of this includes asking anyone inside heaven, other than Jesus.

It is contended that Mary, the saints and the Apostles are in heaven and able to hear us and with my limited experience I find no fault with this, Revelation 6:10 speaks of beings in heaven speaking out to our Lord, but are they interceding, I don’t beleive so. They are simply and only bearing witness to events.
What I do find fault with is the belief that they are intended to intercede, to take action as an intercessor, an action that the Bible states as a two way street and by implication a position of close proximity, namely here on earth. “Confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another.” “One to another” implies a great many things, a close proximity, a shared experience, an earned trust and a fulfilled obligation. None of these things are actions those who have died and moved on can any longer fulfill, if they could, there would be no reason for Paul to be torn in Philippians 1:20-26 in the choice between labour with the saints and “gain”, as he clearly was. He says:
“24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;”
There is a clear distinction between “in the flesh” and his “gain.” I believe he was torn because he knew his limits, he was worried about their strength and growth and that he could not do for them what it is that they would need from heaven. He could not strive with them; he could not help bear their burdens any longer.

I believe in modern vernacular “location is everything,” applies here in a manner we may not be considering. Jesus lived, died and was resurrected and abides in Heaven. Everything He did, He did so that we could be with Him (John 14:2). Jesus lived, suffered, sacrificed, died and rose to achieve…an unencumbered, one on one relationship with each and every one of His children in His Kingdom (Matthew 27:51). He did it every day He lived a life without blemish, with every precious crimson droplet they bled from Him, with every stripe He bore He nailed our sin to His cross so that we could be free to have the Lover of our souls no further than a whisper. He did it so that we would have to offer no one, anything, to have the Maker of Heaven and Earth, The I am, the one who hung the stars, to whom the Angels bear witness and cry out to continually, hear our prayers. With this in mind why would I ask a servant of the King of a Kingdom to do anything for me when the King says that if we ask anything according to His will, He will not refuse us? To do so seems disrespectful, somehow. Am I saying they do not hold places of honor, no, I am not; but in Heaven who better to pray for any of us than the one who judges the righteous and intercedes for the saints (Romans 8:27).
On earth who better to pray for us than a righteous person? There is none! However, Heaven there is no comparison! By asking those in heaven to intercede on our behalf I believe we are insinuating one. I think this can be seen every time anyone tried to place honour or title or anything that took away from what Jesus would mean to a believer and give to the Apostles, they said, Not I, but Christ! (Acts 14:11-18).

“… who better to pray on your behalf than the mother of the Son of God?”

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Romans 8:34)

 

[Hiskid1973]

Nice post, a lot of thought…

 

[Tiberius1701]

Revelation 6:9-10 says, “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?’”

Please tell me, ArmourBearer, how is this not interceding? They’re dead and in heaven, and they’re asking God to take action on earth to affect the lives of those who have not yet died. To me, that’s kind of the definition of intercession. They’re dead, so they can’t be asking God to affect their own lives, therefore they are praying God to intervene in the lives of others. If that’s not intercession, I don’t know what is. Even if you don’t believe that “the prayers of the saints” mentioned in Rev 5:8 includes the prayers of the Church Triumphant (personally I believe it includes the prayers of the Church Millitant - aka us - the Church Suffering - those in Purgatory - and the Church Triumphant - those in Heaven), this verse specifically quotes the exact words of dead people’s intercessory prayers. How is this not interceeding, in your eyes?

You’re obviously trying honestly to understand us, so please trust that I am likewise trying to understand your thinking here.

 

[rdscheirer]

Revisit Paschal’s Dilemma or sometimes Paschal’s wager- he was a brilliant mathamatician in the 1800’s or maybe earlier who put it succinctly when he said-I paraphrase- If God exists and the scriptures are true I can choose either to abide by the scriptures and hope to get eternal bliss, or not follow them and take my chances.
As far as I know he chose the first.

 

[Tiberius1701]

Furthermore, while I understand that you are simply trying to maintain due reverence for Christ, who is God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, the Ultimate Intercessor, and the Sole Intercessor through whom we all have access to God, I do not think you are clearly understanding our explanation of why you, or anyone, can pray at all. It is not because we can talk to Christ as a friend. It is because, through our Baptism and the sanctification process that follows it, we are Christ’s Body. This, again, to beat the drum I will faithfully beat till the day I die, is immeasurably more true, and real, and substantial than you or I could possibly understand. Therefore, when you pray, be it directly to God, or to your most righteous companion on earth who then prays to God, or to one of the Saints in Heaven who then prays to God, it is not you, nor your friend, nor the Saint, who prays. It is Christ! So, when you claim that, “To [pray to the Saints] seems disrespectful, somehow,” I would claim that to deny their right to intercede for us, to deny their ability to do so, “seems disrespectful, somehow.” Not disrespectful of them, but disrespectful of Christ. Because it is His Body that they comprise, that we comprise. If they cannot intercede, then neither can we. For we are no more Christ than they, and without the grace of Baptism and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who is the Soul of the Divine Body of Christ which is the Church, nothing we say would be heard by God. The very same is true of them. If you can open your mouth and be heard by God because He died for you and made you a member of His Mystical Body, it is only because Christ, not you, prays in you. So if this is true of you, who are imperfect and stained with sin, yet who are still Christ’s Body, then it is true of them. We do not honor you when we ask you to pray for us; we honor Christ who died and gave you the power to do so. In the same way, we give honor and worship to God Almighty because we respect His Body who lives with Him in Heaven and can pray as He prays.

For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts,* *yet one body. " -I Corinthians 12:14-20)

You, ArmourBearer, part of the Body Militant, may say to the Body Triumphant, “Because you are not the Body Militant, you do not belong to the Body Prayerful,” but that does not make the Saints any less part of the Body of Christ, who is the One, Indissoluble, Immortal Body Prayerful.

I hope and pray that this makes sense to you, because it is the Truth. If to pray to the Saints is disrespectful of God, then to pray at all is disrespectful of Him.