Why pray to Mary or anyone other than God?

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Armourbearer,

I agree with Hiskid that your post above is very well presented and shows much thoughtful consideration of both sides.

Just a couple of thoughts – I’ll just lift appropriate sections for the sake of space…
You said:
What I do find fault with is the belief that they are intended to intercede, to take action as an intercessor, an action that the Bible states as a two way street and by implication a position of close proximity, namely here on earth. “Confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another…
Then you go on to describe how “one to another” requires proximity. This I will grant you. However you do NOT mention “pray one for the other which does not require the same kind of proximity or even an close relationship. For instance…did you pray for the people affected by the earthquake in Japan? I’m sure you did. Yet you are not in proximity to them nor do you have a close relationship with them. Likewise we have a forum here for prayer requests. We don’t know each other and are spread around the world but we offer prayers even though we are not in “proximity” or have a relationship of “earned trust and a fulfilled obligation”…
So – We don’t confess our sings to Mary or a saint which I will grant, does require proximity but to ask them to pray – to intercede - for us, that does not require the same proximity.

You go on to mention St Paul in Philippians:
None of these things are actions those who have died and moved on can any longer fulfill, if they could, there would be no reason for Paul to be torn in Philippians 1:20-26 in the choice between labour with the saints and “gain”, as he clearly was. He says:
“24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;”
There is a clear distinction between “in the flesh” and his “gain.” I believe he was torn because he knew his limits, he was worried about their strength and growth and that he could not do for them what it is that they would need from heaven. He could not strive with them; he could not help bear their burdens any longer.
I think that you will agree that, if you are physically with someone you are in a better position to help since you and they can talk directly and clearly. However, being physically removed from them does not mean you cannot still help. After all Paul wrote letters when he could not be there. We also know that Paul prayed for those distant from him because he said so in his letters.
So the point is that, yes, close physical proximity is beneficial, but it is not necessary for one to intercede on behalf of others.

Lastly I’d like to thank you for taking the time to consider this and to ask good questions and to respond with such a well thought out reply.

Peace
James​
 
It’s a lot simpler than you’re making it.

Prayer - conversation with God - should be utterly simple. God doesn’t want us to get encumbered in our prayer…e.g, only asking righteous people to pray for us.

We should do as Jesus did…he prayed for us…that we may be one…and other supplications to the Father…and we too then should pray for each other.

Death doesn’t separate souls in Christ. The souls in heaven can and do pray for us. This is part of what we mean by the “Communion of saints.”

“that we may be one”…is also a “means”…the oneness is the community of saints…and He is encouraging us not to just pray for each other but to act as one body. To aid each other…to remove obstacles to oneness with God.

Utter simpleness in prayer.

We should pray like we would like our children to talk to us. But we’re imperfect parents.
 
armourbearer said:
I am not Catholic by practice or belief and I intend absolutely no disrespect with my question and am seeking an honest answer.
I will admit I could read any number of books on the subject and I am sure that there is a thread on the subject somewhere. I would much rather engage in good conversation with somone or any number of someones who believe and practice this method of prayer.
I am at a loss and have for a number of years wanted to understand, not criticize, what it is I don’t understand. I am not saying I will ever agree, however, I would deeply appreciate an understanding. I came upon this sight researching details as to the “putting together” of the Bible and found it to be a wonderful resource.

If I may make one request could all validating scripture come from the current KJV so that I may be able to keep up.

Thank you and God Bless!
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Hello and welcome,

This question is the most common one I get from my Protestant friends.

We do ask Mary and other Saints to ‘pray for us’ in the same way we pray for others. Why do we do that? Because we believe they led exemplary holy lives and are already in heaven in the presence of God. Just like Moses and Elijah etc. who appeared in ‘flesh and blood’ before some of the disciples and talked with Jesus. Therefore, because they are already in the presence of God, their prayers are more efficacious then ‘sinners’ prayers here on earth.

The original word ‘pray’ had two meanings.
  1. To ‘ask for’ or request (e.g. in olde English “I pray to thee Your Majesty to grant me this request” etc) of course, they weren’t praying to the King they were asking for something.
  2. To ‘worship’ (praising the Lord etc)
When we ‘pray’ to the Saints we are ‘asking them to pray for us’ as in the first definition. The more people praying for you the better but if you have Saints who are ‘cleansed’ and sin no more, petitioning God directly on your behalf then their prayers are more effective than sinners on earth whose prayers may be hindered by unconfessed sins or selfish concerns.

You don’t have to ask the Saints, you can pray directly to God (in the second sense) of the meaning.

I think some Protestants get ‘upset’ or ‘misunderstand’ this particular practice because for them ‘praying’ and singing is their ultimate form of 'worshipping God".

Whereas for Catholics the Mass and keeping the Sacraments is the ultimate form of ‘worshipping God’.

Prayer for Catholics connects us to God and the Saints in heaven. I see it as my daily conversation with God.

Someone once said Protestants pray and Catholics say prayers?😃
 
The prayer of a righteous man avails much.

DRC: James 5:16. Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
 
I have yet to see this presented to armourbearer so I will begin by appealing to something more familiar to us all: the family. Or what the Church is, the family of God.

Her objections seem to stem from the perception of Jesus as a jealous overlord who is suspicious of anyone attempting to “go over is head” because He and only He is the one mediator…

We know that can’t be true because “God is love”(1 John 4:8). And that love is not jealous(1 Cor 13:4).

So God is not jealous. God loves us. And included in this love is His will that we grow into full maturity by His grace.

This is what scripture means when it says that we are, “to be conformed to the image of his Son.”(Rom 8:29).

How are we “conformed” into the image of Christ?

First we are baptized into Christ’s body(Matt 28:19; John 3:5; Rom 6). In baptism we receive God’s family name, we recieve forgiveness for our sins, we are given the Holy Spirit, and we are given the gift of divine sonship/daughtership. God is our Father, Jesus is our brother as well as our King and High Priest. His mother is our mother(John 19:27). And the Saints are our brothers and sisters as well.

Then we also have our weekly family dinner: the Eucharist. But instead of just receiving mere material bread and wine we receive our Lord’s risen flesh and blood.

As the prophet par excellence Jesus fortold of His immanent death at the Passover by separating His Flesh and Blood and then offering it as bread and wine. What happens when your body is separated from your blood? Death.

So by partaking of the Lord’s body and blood we are further entering into His death(John 6; 1 Cor 10 & 11). And it is by entering into this death that we will be raised with Him(Rom 6:5).

We also know that, “neither death… nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”(Rom 8:38-39).

Yes, Jesus is the one mediator. But does Jesus jealously guard and restrict His mediatorship? Or does He share His mediatorship with the Saints? Does He selfishly hold on to the glory that He received from God the Father? Or does Jesus share His infinite glory with all of us?

Would not Jesus bestow glory onto His Saints by allowing them to share in His work of salvation? Would arourbearer, or any of us, selfishly withhold the greatest gifts from our siblings, or would we not share with them all that we have?

How much more for our mother? If any of us had the opportunity to create our own mother, would we not make the most perfect mother in all of the universe?

How much more so for Jesus, God the Son, who became incarnate in her womb?

And if Jesus fulfilled all of the commandments perfectly(namely the fourth commandment, the one that says “honor your father and mother” in which “to honor” literally translated from the Hebrew means “to bestow glory”)do you honestly think that Jesus wouldn’t bestow upon her the fullness of all glory and grace that any creature had ever received in all of history?

Our families are not that which the Church or the Trinity is a type. Rather that our human families are the foreshadowings and types that find their fulfillment in the Trinity and the Church. In the Godhead is that fullness of family; Fatherhood, Sonship, and the mutual and total offering of Love that is the Holy Spirit. We join this when we partake of the divine life(2 Peter 1:4). And in Christ we are united to each other.

I also came from a protestant background, and after that I became an atheist. I had my qualms about veneration of the Saints. But when I was taught about the familial nature of God and His Church, those reservations melted away.

I will continue to pray for armourbearer and all of my protestant brothers and sisters.

May God bless you all.
 
armourbearer said:
“… who better to pray on your behalf than the mother of the Son of God?”

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Romans 8:34)
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Do you not pray for other people? Do you not ask others to pray for you or your family? If you disagree with the practice of praying to Mary and the Saints then surely asking Joe Schmo to pray for you or a loved one is equally as bad since by your logic asking anyone other than Jesus is not proper. If you disagree with that, why? While I apprecate your acknowledging my question, you have not answered it. You quoted scripture which does nothing more than sidestep the issue. If you ask people in your church to pray for you and/or your loved ones, what harm do you see in asking Mary or the Saints the same? All Christians (unless I’m missing something which very well could be the case) believe in life after death.

Surely Mary is alive and in heaven now. So, if you would ask the people in your church to pray for you tell me without quoting scripture why asking Mary is any different.
 
armourbearer said:
I am not Catholic by practice or belief and I intend absolutely no disrespect with my question and am seeking an honest answer.
I will admit I could read any number of books on the subject and I am sure that there is a thread on the subject somewhere.
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to me it’s sort of like asking “why eat if you have God?” or “what even talk to people if you have God?”

they are partakers of the divine nature and are very powerful due to God’s choice
 
armourbearer said:
I am not Catholic by practice or belief and I intend absolutely no disrespect with my question and am seeking an honest answer.
I will admit I could read any number of books on the subject and I am sure that there is a thread on the subject somewhere. I would much rather engage in good conversation with somone or any number of someones who believe and practice this method of prayer.
I am at a loss and have for a number of years wanted to understand, not criticize, what it is I don’t understand. I am not saying I will ever agree, however, I would deeply appreciate an understanding. I came upon this sight researching details as to the “putting together” of the Bible and found it to be a wonderful resource.

If I may make one request could all validating scripture come from the current KJV so that I may be able to keep up.

Thank you and God Bless!
Click to expand...
Within Catholicism, there’s a presumption that it’s okay to pray to Mary, because you’re only asking her to pray to you. A faithful Catholic doesn’t see any significant difference between asking Mary to pray for them and asking their neighbor to pray for them.

So from the Catholic perspective, the question would be, "Why NOT ask Mary to pray for you…why ask someone else to pray for you but EXCLUDE Mary from praying from you?

The idea that Catholics perceive Mary as a Goddess is just anti Catholic bilge.
 
Coming from a protestant background, there are some points that I have not seen mentioned yet that helped me to understand praying to Mary. The second chapter of John, The Wedding at Cana, Jesus first miracle was performed when his disciples went to the mother of Jesus and informed her of the problem-no wine. She went to Jesus and He was at first, it seems, disinclined to do anything. But at His Mother’s request, the miracle takes place. She told the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” I pray to Mary to intercede for me. She is a loving mother and proven intercessor. I also came to understand the word “pray” to mean “to ask”, “to implore” - many legal documents even include the word “pray” instead of “ask”. To pray is not to worship. I don’t worship Mary, but I am very thankful that God gave her to Jesus and to us. The practice of asking Mary to pray with me to God has helped me to behave toward the God of the universe with even more reverence.
 
popster said:
Coming from a protestant background, there are some points that I have not seen mentioned yet that helped me to understand praying to Mary. The second chapter of John, The Wedding at Cana, Jesus first miracle was performed when his disciples went to the mother of Jesus and informed her of the problem-no wine. She went to Jesus and He was at first, it seems, disinclined to do anything. But at His Mother’s request, the miracle takes place. She told the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.” I pray to Mary to intercede for me. She is a loving mother and proven intercessor. I also came to understand the word “pray” to mean “to ask”, “to implore” - many legal documents even include the word “pray” instead of “ask”. To pray is not to worship. I don’t worship Mary, but I am very thankful that God gave her to Jesus and to us. The practice of asking Mary to pray with me to God has helped me to behave toward the God of the universe with even more reverence.
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There’s a lot of noise about the big deal which Catholics make of Mary and from a non Catholic perspective, I guess I could understand it, to a degree.

But this coin has two sides, the other side being, why do so many non Catholics come about as close as possible to ignoring Mary completely?

They do nothing that would come close to actually blessing her in any way. At most you might hear her name mentioned around Christmas in the nativity account, maybe a mentioning at mothers day but that’s about it. Why? What is the big deal here?

Especially in light of the prophetic verse, “all generations shall call me blessed.” Why would non Catholics choose to sit this one out. It’s a practice AND Biblical prophecy which I’ve seen no church fulfill BUT the Catholic Church. I believe there are a few who honor Mary but I think they’re just offshoots of Catholicism anyway.
 
What you describe, babylonsfalling, was exactly what I saw in the Southern Baptist Church where I was a member for many years and the one where I spent my childhood wasn’t much better. Mary was mentioned only at Christmas and they were very careful to point out in the same breath that “she was a sinner like the rest of us.” This, I never bought- not even as a child. I never recall a Sunday School lesson or sermon about Mary.Several years back when the movie Passion of the Christ was released, our church went in groups to see it. Our pastor gave a series of Sunday nights sermons subsequent to the movie and in each sermon a character from the Passion of the Christ was featured. Mary did not even get a mention.At best in the Southern Baptist churches that I was affiliated with, Mary was treated like “one of the girls”, at worst, she is ignored completely. Very sad.Far from the “all generations will call me blessed.”
 
popster said:
What you describe, babylonsfalling, was exactly what I saw in the Southern Baptist Church where I was a member for many years and the one where I spent my childhood wasn’t much better. Mary was mentioned only at Christmas and they were very careful to point out in the same breath that “she was a sinner like the rest of us.” This, I never bought- not even as a child. I never recall a Sunday School lesson or sermon about Mary.Several years back when the movie Passion of the Christ was released, our church went in groups to see it. Our pastor gave a series of Sunday nights sermons subsequent to the movie and in each sermon a character from the Passion of the Christ was featured. Mary did not even get a mention.At best in the Southern Baptist churches that I was affiliated with, Mary was treated like “one of the girls”, at worst, she is ignored completely. Very sad.Far from the “all generations will call me blessed.”
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You know, if it weren’t so sad, it would be funny. “We’re going to spend a night talking about every character at the Passion as seen in Mel Gibson’s version,” pastor says. “What about Mary?” a church-goer asks after the fifth session. “Nah. She’s only in more scenes than anyone besides Jesus; I’m sure she’s not at all important,” he replies. “Oh… uh… sure. That makes sense…” 🤷
 
Sometimes you get a busy signal. Personally my fall back is st. Anthony, I always be losing my car keys and he keeps on helping me find them 🙂
 
Birdpreacher said:
Sometimes you get a busy signal. Personally my fall back is st. Anthony, I always be losing my car keys and he keeps on helping me find them 🙂
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My fall back is St. Macarius of Jerusalem, in case I loose sight of the Cross or of the Ressurection. After all, he helped St. Helen find the True Cross and he built the Church of the Holy Sepulcre. 😃 He also held a seat of honor at the Council of Nicaea in 325. (He’s my Patron Saint, so I know these things. 👍)
 
Some of the best answers to this question you can find on realcatholictv.com and listen to Michael Voris he is awesome !
He has a library of videos on a lot of these subjects and answers from the scriptors
 
mark_a said:
Billy Graham says that it is a reaction against Catholicism.
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I would agree with that, along with ignorance of the communion of saints and the mystical Body of Christ. When my little toe hurts, the rest of my body knows it. The saints in heaven, by virtue of comprising the Body of Christ, hear our prayers and intercede for us, not by their own power, but by the grace of God.
 
SteveVH said:
I would agree with that, along with ignorance of the communion of saints and the mystical Body of Christ. When my little toe hurts, the rest of my body knows it. The saints in heaven, by virtue of comprising the Body of Christ, hear our prayers and intercede for us, not by their own power, but by the grace of God.
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Amen, Brother. 👍
 
mark_a said:
Billy Graham says that it is a reaction against Catholicism.
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I’ve often though it was an effort to not be “too Catholic”:confused:…something which I suspect pervades much of non-Catholicism.

But after many generations of ignoring Mary, it would now seem normal to a third or fourth generation non denominational person. They couldn’t accurately be called anti Catholic or bigoted against Catholics because it honestly seems totally weird to them. Hence the non Catholic perspective, “Why DO you or WOULD you pray to Mary?”
 
We pray to God…as a community…because that is what Church is…a gathering of people with shared faith…
 
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