I fail to see why this issue is pertinent, but since you bring it up, try reconciling 1 Tim. 2:4 with Romans chapter 9. Good luck with that.
You are so right. After we are baptized and regenerated by the Holy Sacrament of Baptism as the Church has taught for 2000 years the Holy Spirit, another paraclete turns our groans into prayer as Paul says in Romans. Obedience. By one mans obedience we were made sinners and by one mans obedience we were made righteous. No need to understand, just obey.
Reason takes me anywhere it wants to, unlike the time when I said, “you can’t touch these dogmas because I’m going to believe them no matter what.”
Here is an article discussing evidence for “patterns coming into being.”Hi, SGWessells,
The problem with this approach is that it implies one has the ‘truth’ and measures all reality against it. While it is not politically correct, one’s likes and dislikes have real influence on one’s choices - as opposed to expressing a desire to only follow the ‘truth’. We are really just back to your preferences being the determination for what you chose. After all, you have left yourself nothing else: God is what we believe Him to be, the Bible is not inspired - so it is obviously a fraud and ‘truth’ is simply variable.
And, concerning your position on ‘…patterns can also come into being…acting according to their own natures’ has no evidence whatsoever. The sun ‘rises in the east’ each morning in a predictable manner (a pattern) because it is in its nature to do this? It makes one wonder how the sun got such a nature… do you think God (the Supreme Pattern Maker) had a Hand in this?
In my opinion, what you have presented is this is simply relativism by making yourself the sole determination of what is true. The failure here is that if you have ever made a mistake -(selected the ‘un-true’ for whatever reason) the argument falls apart.
Calling this ‘varialbe’ may ‘float your boat’ but, you will ultimately fatigue from bailing water out of this very leaky structure!
God bless
Thank you for your explanation. Maybe you missed the single quote I used about the ‘sun rising’? (Please go back and check…
) I am aware it is our observations from Earth that give us this view. I was using this by way of illustration. I guess I will need to try something else… 
Yet amazingly we know that all the patterns we see around us just happened - and keep on repeating and show what we call ‘random variety’ and then come back to yet another pattern. Try throwing your clock against the wall and see how the pieces go all over the place. Now, gather all of the pieces and throw them agains the wall and see if you get your clock back. The limitations seen with this clock experiement (once per clock!
) are real - and assuming you have an abundance of money - are only limited by how many clocks you want to buy for each throw! Please note, all of these clocks are the result of a real clock maker! A concept that even the Deists had no problem believing as they looked into the visible universe.One of the more interesting things about ‘truth’ is that our concepts of it keep on changing. For example the “Ptolemaic Universe” was the ‘truth’ from before the Ancient Greeks - but, it repalced the ‘truth’ of a ‘Flat Earth’. The geocentric earth ‘truth’ had a fairly long run on the time scale of ‘earthy truths’ but was eventually replaced by the ‘truth’ of a heliocentric universe as identified by scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. This is not to say that any of these theories are ‘wrong’ - only that as our understandings gained in both depth and precision we were able to see them for what they are and use them (like the ‘shoulders’ that Newton used (now, this is a metaphor, SGWessells… don’t think of Sir Issac climbing up someone’s back) to stand on…
Actually, I do not think anyone can give you such an explanation because of the stipulaton you have given. Psalm 14 has an interesting beginning … in fact, let me return the favor and provide you with a link: usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Psalms&ch=14 Ultimately, the burden lies with you - until you open not only your mind but your heart - all will remain both hard, sterile and cold. Now, if you dispute this, just wait around and you will have an eternity of empirical evidence.
Hi, SGWessells,
I read the article. The speculations of some physicists concerning “quantum vacuum fluctuations” and virtual particles omitted an intersting item: the inability to actually measure someting does not negate its existence. These short-lived particles that suddenly appear does not mean they were not there all along and now we able to detect them, or that that God did not create them - like much longer-lived items such as you and I! Truly, this atheistic reference you provided is hardly something that proves anything - simply speculation by those with a real agenda against there being a Creator. Going back to the beginning - something can not come out of nothing - except the speculation contianed in this reference. Ultimately a pattern demonstrates a Pattern Maker… and, that is the name of that tune.
Yet amazingly we know that all the patterns we see around us just happened - and keep on repeating and show what we call ‘random variety’ and then come back to yet another pattern. Try throwing your clock against the wall and see how the pieces go all over the place. Now, gather all of the pieces and throw them agains the wall and see if you get your clock back. The limitations seen with this clock experiement (once per clock!
One of the more interesting things about ‘truth’ is that our concepts of it keep on changing. For example the “Ptolemaic Universe” was the ‘truth’ from before the Ancient Greeks - but, it repalced the ‘truth’ of a ‘Flat Earth’. The geocentric earth ‘truth’ had a fairly long run on the time scale of ‘earthy truths’ but was eventually replaced by the ‘truth’ of a heliocentric universe as identified by scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. This is not to say that any of these theories are ‘wrong’ - only that as our understandings gained in both depth and precision we were able to see them for what they are and use them (like the ‘shoulders’ that Newton used (now, this is a metaphor, SGWessells… don’t think of Sir Issac climbing up someone’s back) to stand on…
The Truth (upper case “T”) is that God created everything out of nothing - and you are free to accept or reject this Truth while grasping for the ‘truths’ you are clinging to at the moment.
Actually, I do not think anyone can give you such an explanation because of the stipulaton you have given. Psalm 14 has an interesting beginning … in fact, let me return the favor and provide you with a link: usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Psalms&ch=14 Ultimately, the burden lies with you - until you open not only your mind but your heart - all will remain both hard, sterile and cold. Now, if you dispute this, just wait around and you will have an eternity of empirical evidence.
God bless
First comment: A pattern does not necessarily prove a pattern maker, especially for us humans, who are genetically conditioned to see patterns even when they aren’t there, as in Hamlet’s discussion about clouds with Polonius. Biologically, patterns can accumulate gradually through replicated genes mutating to perform new functions, outmoded structures becoming parts of other structures, and gradual improvements in abilities being refined through natural selection, and so on, each part doing what it is programmed to do. Patterns can occur in nature without being planned by any superintending agency.
Second comment: Clocks are not biological entities; they have no life. We know they are designed by people. It is tempting to expand that fact by analogy to conclude, as Paley did, that everything that has parts which work together to achieve an end must have been designed to achieve that end. But not necessarily. Cumulative evidence from many fields suggests that creatures less skilled at achieving that end (reproduction being the most important for the species) simply died out, skewing the sample by leaving only those whose “pattern” fit for us to judge by.
Third comment: Truth and our concepts of truth overlap, but not completely, and the amount of overlap varies. Ptolemy’s geocentric universe was never “true” no matter how many people thought it was, because that’s not how the cosmos operates, and never was. Reality is not whatever we make it. Truth is not determined by majority vote, even if the majority are certain that “God created everything out of nothing.” Your implication seems to be that scientific “truth” keeps changing, while the “truth” of God remains the same. Maybe, but that could mean only that the Godly never attain any new knowledge
Incidentally, educated ancient Greeks knew the world was round. Apparently the writers of the Bible didn’t go to the right schools.
Let’s see just what we have here…Unless you are referencing Act 1 of Scene 2 … I am not sure what you mean by this discussion. But, don’t trouble yourself, while the metaphor may elude - the principle is fatally flawed! Since you hung your argument on the cloud - let’s see how it supports. Clouds not only have patterns but quite distinct patterns so that they can be studied as a types within major groups - and, this is called nephology, as a specific discipline in meterology.
I do not know if you took the time to count the number of Gratuitous Assumptions you have provided here - but just like the clock you dismissed , just how many patters that would replicate themselves after having been thrown against the wall do you think there are? You can not prove the point by simply providing it as a given - that is a ‘straw man argument’ … and, I think your ‘man’ here has just tried to steal the presentation! Imagine!!
No, SGWessells, you will have to do much better in presenting an agrument in this direction. Things just don’t happen. They don’t just happen in ANY OF THE SCIENCES!!! From Black Holes to nanoseconds we find patterns everywhere - even when we do not understand what is going on, we see similar processes from one end of the visible universe to the other to what is in the palm of your hand. Now, that Psalm you read … maybe you would be interested in reading it again… just think about it.We become “just” through Jesus and Mary.
And let us not forget about Hezekiah; Who when God sent Isaiah to tell him to get his house in order because he was going to die, prayed to live longer and had his request granted. Let us also not forget they were the worst years of Hezekiah’s life. I suppose when we pray we should pray like Christ, not my will but thine be done.
