Why pray, when we cannot change God's will?

[healonzo]

Re: Why pray, when we cannot change God’s will, and He never changes His mind?

Good question. I think it has really caused a lot of people to rethink their positions. I think a lot of people are trying to reconcile Free Will and Predestination. You can read about what Thomas said about predestination which is helpful in understanding how we are created differently then other animals. You can also get a glimpse on our nature by reading about what Thomas says about Angels and free will. One thing I would like to add to this argument is this:

God has a passive Will and an active Will. We are also created to have free will. Scripture supports both premises. Think about that and think about God’s Will instead of a loose term such as God’s plan. It might open more doors to understanding the Trinity.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Fixxer,

An excellent post

God bless

I found this statement while reading my Magnificat and I thought it a great answer for this question!
“The purpose of prayer is not to change the order established by God, but to obtain what God has decided to accomplish by means of our prayer.”

Father Bernard Bro, O.P.
October 2011 Magnificat

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Healonzo,

Can you providfe a link to what Thomas said about predestination?

Thanks and God bless

Re: Why pray, when we cannot change God’s will, and He never changes His mind?

Good question. I think it has really caused a lot of people to rethink their positions. I think a lot of people are trying to reconcile Free Will and Predestination. You can read about what Thomas said about predestination which is helpful in understanding how we are created differently then other animals. You can also get a glimpse on our nature by reading about what Thomas says about Angels and free will. One thing I would like to add to this argument is this:

God has a passive Will and an active Will. We are also created to have free will. Scripture supports both premises. Think about that and think about God’s Will instead of a loose term such as God’s plan. It might open more doors to understanding the Trinity.

 

[healonzo]

Hi, Healonzo,

Can you providfe a link to what Thomas said about predestination?

Thanks and God bless

Hi sure no problem.

here is a link about humans being different than animals and the next chapters go on to Providence. I recommend reading chapters 111–116

www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc3_112.htm

Here is a link from Catholic Encyclopedia on predestination.

newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

Here is a link on angels.

newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm

I think they probably discussed predestination and free will in this forum already. But I also think that understanding Providence in the context of ‘why do we pray at all’ is very important.

God Bless all!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Healonzo,

Thank you :tiphat:

God bless

Hi sure no problem.

here is a link about humans being different than animals and the next chapters go on to Providence. I recommend reading chapters 111–116

www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc3_112.htm

Here is a link from Catholic Encyclopedia on predestination.

newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

Here is a link on angels.

newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm

I think they probably discussed predestination and free will in this forum already. But I also think that understanding Providence in the context of ‘why do we pray at all’ is very important.

God Bless all!

 

[SGWessells]

Thanks for the link about predestination. As a former Calvinist, I found it quite interesting, and much more sensible.

The other day, a problem occurred to me regarding prayer, and I thought, what better people than you to advise me. Mark 11:23 says that when we ask for anything in prayer, we will receive it if we do not doubt at all; and James 1:7 says that someone who doubts will receive nothing. But 1 John 5:14,15 says that when we pray according to God’s will, He hears us and grants our request. But it seems to me that we cannot do both. For to ask according to God’s will is to grant the possibility that it might be God’s will to say no; but we cannot grant that possibility without some doubt whether God will say yes; therefore, we will not receive what we ask for according to the other verses. What are your thoughts?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SGWessells,

I think we need to look at prayer in the say way that Christ taught us with the Our Father.

We acknowledge God’s Divinity and our responsibility to worship Him. We are dependent on Him for our survival in thiis world and the next - and we also live with other humans who are also dependent on God.

Our main focus must be for our eternal salvation. Prayers that focus on God’s Will for our salvation will be answered. We can have no doubts (like old Calvin) that God wills the salvation of all men. It is our job to cooperate with God’s Grace to achieve this end… because we can not do this by ourselves or be with God in Heaven simply by practicing mindless ritualistic ‘works’.

There are those who think that winning the lottery is going to happen because they have prayed to God to win ‘all this money’. Well, maybe this is God’s will for someone and maybe it isn’t - but, there can be no doubt that God want us to pray that we accomplish His will. To do this, we are to do good and avoid evil while following what Christ told us to do through the Church He founded on Peter. Either way, if we win the lottery or lose it - we are still subject to God’s Law and our eternal salvation is far more valuable than any amount of money (or new car, or new girlfriend, or whatever material aspect we are telling ourselves we need for happiness).

Then there are those who are not interested in the frivilous (winning the lottery) but have a dread disease - or a beloved family member has this disease - and they are praying for deliverance from this evil. No doubt about it - this is a higher order prayer than the lottery crowd came up with - but, still, are we focusing our attention on God’s Will for us? We know we can say, “Yes” to this when we take whatever answer the doctor gives us with equal resolve. This is not indifference, but rather an indication that we are truly willing to accept God’s Will in our lives.

The issue of doubt is a true plague spread by the Devil to unplant the seeds of Faith planted by God. The ‘doubt’ aspect is that we do not know if God is really acting in our best interest! Yes, the same God, Who took on Flesh and died on the Cross for us - must put up with these kinds of doubts. I really think the quickest remedy for this type of doubt is the Crucifix.

There may be some who ‘doubt’ tht God will see things their way - either with regards to the lottery or being rid of a dread disease. The challenge here lies in our willingness to look at that Crucifix and tell God we are willing to accept whatever He sends. A perfect example of someone who lived their life this way is St. Thoms More. Shortly before he was martyered by Henry VIII, he told his daughter, “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” I think St. Thomas had the right idea and certainly was not a slave to doubt.

Hope that helped.

God bless

Thanks for the link about predestination. As a former Calvinist, I found it quite interesting, and much more sensible.

The other day, a problem occurred to me regarding prayer, and I thought, what better people than you to advise me. Mark 11:23 says that when we ask for anything in prayer, we will receive it if we do not doubt at all; and James 1:7 says that someone who doubts will receive nothing. But 1 John 5:14,15 says that when we pray according to God’s will, He hears us and grants our request. But it seems to me that we cannot do both. For to ask according to God’s will is to grant the possibility that it might be God’s will to say no; but we cannot grant that possibility without some doubt whether God will say yes; therefore, we will not receive what we ask for according to the other verses. What are your thoughts?

 

[healonzo]

Thanks for the link about predestination. As a former Calvinist, I found it quite interesting, and much more sensible.

The other day, a problem occurred to me regarding prayer, and I thought, what better people than you to advise me. Mark 11:23 says that when we ask for anything in prayer, we will receive it if we do not doubt at all; and James 1:7 says that someone who doubts will receive nothing. But 1 John 5:14,15 says that when we pray according to God’s will, He hears us and grants our request. But it seems to me that we cannot do both. For to ask according to God’s will is to grant the possibility that it might be God’s will to say no; but we cannot grant that possibility without some doubt whether God will say yes; therefore, we will not receive what we ask for according to the other verses. What are your thoughts?

I’ll try to help also in explaining this because it helps me learn more about The Trinity.

Here is a link about salvation (predestination vs. free-will) from a Catholic Apologist from Catholic Answers:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=5057

First of all, I don’t claim to know the life of the Trinity. An analogy I can think of is this:

Augustine was walking on the beach one day contemplating the Holy Trinity when he came upon a boy who was trying to pour the ocean in a hole with a cup. He said to the boy, “It is impossible you will never be able to do it” The boy replied, “And neither will you be able to understand the Trinity.” (note: I’m paraphrasing)

tqualey brings up a good point about how to pray. Catholic teaching says we don’t know how we ought to pray. And I’m guessing the Bible passages you quoted are contained within certain contexts in the Bible. I think the best way to understand prayer would be to look to the parables and look to Jesus’ own words. The Parable of the Persistent Widow (Luke 18:1-8) and Healing of the Blind Beggar (Luke 18:35-43) are good examples. In the parable Jesus explains on the need for prayer because of various reasons, and then later on in Luke he heals the blind beggar as others are rebuking the beggar.

1. God is scrupulous & Merciful
2. it supports your idea that we don’t know God’s Will

It is better to think in terms of trusting God to provide for our eternal salvation(temporal needs included) instead of whether or not we are doing God’s Will. In other words God is constantly creating in the Universe (as it’s expanding) and creates unlimited opportunities.
It causes us problems to think in terms of limits when God is limitless.

 

[healonzo]

I’ll try to help also in explaining this because it helps me learn more about The Trinity.

Here is a link about salvation (predestination vs. free-will) from a Catholic Apologist from Catholic Answers:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=5057

First of all, I don’t claim to know the life of the Trinity. An analogy I can think of is this:

Augustine was walking on the beach one day contemplating the Holy Trinity when he came upon a boy who was trying to pour the ocean in a hole with a cup. He said to the boy, “It is impossible you will never be able to do it” The boy replied, “And neither will you be able to understand the Trinity.” (note: I’m paraphrasing)

tqualey brings up a good point about how to pray. Catholic teaching says we don’t know how we ought to pray. And I’m guessing the Bible passages you quoted have certain meanings in within a certain context (I haven’t read them yet, but I’ll try to later on). I think the best way to understand prayer would be to look to the parables and look to Jesus’ own words. The Parable of the Persistent Widow (Luke 18:1-8) and Healing of the Blind Beggar (Luke 18:35-43) In the parable Jesus explains on the need for prayer because of various reasons, and then later on in Luke he heals the blind beggar as others are rebuking the beggar.

1. God is scrupulous & Merciful
2. it supports your idea that we don’t know God’s Will

It is better to think in terms of trusting God to provide for our eternal salvation(temporal needs included) instead of whether or not we are doing God’s Will. In other words God is constantly creating in the Universe (as it’s expanding) and creates unlimited opportunities.
It causes us problems to think in terms of limits when God is limitless.

 

[Xntrik]

I don’t, but Jesus evidently does. John 14:14 says, “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.” He doesn’t say, “if you ask anything of me beyond this minimum amount or level”, or “if you ask anything of me, I will think it over and get back to you,” or “if you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it if I think it is in your best interest.” The only qualification Matthew gives is believing. “Whatever you ask for in prayer with faith, you will receive” (Mat. 21:22). Last time I looked, “whatever” means “whatever.” Not “some things, but not all.”
Now if someone asks for $10.00 in Jesus’ name and believes with unshakable sincerity that he will receive it,** yet doesn’t**, what are we to conclude? Jesus lied? Jesus doesn’t keep his promises? Or Jesus was misrepresented by the gospel authors, calling into question everything else in the gospels? What other alternative is there? Yet similar prayers go unanswered every day, don’t they? Isn’t it a commonplace explanation among Christians whose heartfelt prayers went unanswered that “God said no”? I’ve heard them say it many times. Yet, if the gospels are trustworthy, “God said no” is a direct contradiction of an explicit promise of Jesus Christ himself.

you summed up what has bugged the tar out of me forever and a half.

 

[Xntrik]

More accurate would be if we ask for some thing that is according to God’s Will in Jesus name He will do it for us!

I don’t know about that: God hates divorce (as per Malachi). So, when a believer couple I knew was considering divorce, I and a bunch of others prayed they wouldn’t. They did anyway. God is able to change the heart (as per Proverbs), so why didn’t He change their hearts? No, I still say prayer in most cases seems to be a waste of time (even though I can’t help doing it—just as Lewis said as quoted above), especially when it comes to cultural decay and politics.

 

[SGWessells]

I don’t know about that: God hates divorce (as per Malachi). So, when a believer couple I knew was considering divorce, I and a bunch of others prayed they wouldn’t. They did anyway. God is able to change the heart (as per Proverbs), so why didn’t He change their hearts? No, I still say prayer in most cases seems to be a waste of time (even though I can’t help doing it—just as Lewis said as quoted above), especially when it comes to cultural decay and politics.

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies. I have no doubt that prayer provides comfort and reassurance, even when we don’t get what we ask for; and if there is a God, he is more pleased with prayers that harmonize with, or submit to, his will, but I don’t think that addresses the problem of the contradiction. We cannot submit ourselves to whatever God wills, yes or no, and at the same time have no doubt that he will say yes.

 

[JReducation]

I’ll speak this question as a person of prayer and as a former student of Teresa of Avila. This question is silly. How is possible for two people to be lovers and never speak to each other?

Even Jesus prayed.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Xntrik,

Let’s sort out a couple of items …

I don’t know about that: God hates divorce (as per Malachi). So, when a believer couple I knew was considering divorce, I and a bunch of others prayed they wouldn’t. They did anyway. God is able to change the heart (as per Proverbs), so why didn’t He change their hearts? No, I still say prayer in most cases seems to be a waste of time (even though I can’t help doing it—just as Lewis said as quoted above), especially when it comes to cultural decay and politics.

First of all, you and the others did the right thing by praying for this couple and their marriage.

While God is not pleased with divorce - He positively has a very dim view of th divorced couple re-marrying. Let’s skip the part about being unequally yoked - I really just want to keep it simple…

The problem comes in when an immediate or near immediate outcome is effectively demanded of God! As much as I hate to say it, those two could have been greasing the skids on their journey straight to Hell! It could be that God saw that the time they spent together was for a purpose - and now, it is time to move away from eacdh other. While no one knows the Mind of God - this much we do know: He wills the salvation of all. But the God Who created us without our help will not save us without our active reliance on His Grace.

Whatever specific item we pray for - it needs to be attached to the total long term goal of our Eternal Salvation - to be a complete prayer. There are no easy answers here - but, the realty of this couple having divorced is not necessarily the worst thing that could happen to each other!

God bless

 

[wheels10]

I don’t know about that: God hates divorce (as per Malachi). So, when a believer couple I knew was considering divorce, I and a bunch of others prayed they wouldn’t. They did anyway. God is able to change the heart (as per Proverbs), so why didn’t He change their hearts? No, I still say prayer in most cases seems to be a waste of time (even though I can’t help doing it—just as Lewis said as quoted above), especially when it comes to cultural decay and politics.

Just a suggestion here. If you do come across a similar situation in the future, ie. a believer couple considering a divorce, and the couple truly does wish to reconcile their differences, you may want to suggest that the couple prays and fasts.

Matthew 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? 20 Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. 21 But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.