Why pray?

[reen12]

PART ONE

Hi again Reen:thumbsup:
…As I said those years ago, you remind me of Edith Stein in some ways.

…God is in the non understanding and the non reasonable and that is complete confusion to our intellect and complete confusion to all our concepts that we have developed about God.

…It is at the point in life that we no longer understand God that we are letting go of our delusions and illusions and entering into Reality. For God is The Totally non understandable – The I am Who Am. Scripture tells us many things about God and are truthful I hold – but more than that He is more than all that – even it could be said, less than all that.

Cont. Part 2

The head of the philosophy dept, 40 years ago, used to refer to me as Edith Stein,
and that was before I knew who she was. At the time, I was desperate for ‘answers,’ and I drove through the material, with laser focus, trying to find some thought, some stance, from which life would have meaning.

By 1958, I knew that I only had me to turn to.
And that was to lean on a pathetically weak reed.
Life, to me, was utterly absurd, a complete farce.
[Remember how we used to say that Christ is Lord of the absurd?
Maybe that’s the clue, Barb. Christ is *Logos - the source of meaning.
Only the Lord of the absurd can triumph over same.]

quote: BarbaraTherese

It is at the point in life that we no longer understand God that we are letting go of our delusions and illusions and entering into Reality. For God is The Totally non understandable – The I am Who Am. Scripture tells us many things about God and are truthful I hold – but more than that He is more than all that – even it could be said, less than all that.

That’s getting to the reality, Barb. And why I say that I defend God,
even as I berate Him. Yet not Him, but the ‘descriptions’ of Him.
No human being will ever comprehend I AM.

In Camus’ play, Caligula, the mad emperor, at the end of the play, says
"All one need do is to be logical to the very end.’
To me, it’s madness, to try to ‘justify the ways of God to men.’

To try to raise logic - in an apotheosis of same - to ‘defend the
ways of God’ with men,’ is to make unto oneself a false god.
Logic - as ‘applied’ to God. Same is to violate the commandment:
Thou shalt not misuse My Name.

The neat and tidy, the sure and the certain, have no place
in the face of great evil.

No one has greater respect for logic than I do, and that’s
perhaps why I reject - out of hand - any attempt to explain
God’s actions. Logic must fold it’s tents and withdraw.

quote: BarbaraTherese

He is more than all that – even it could be said, less than all that

.

Can you expand on this, Barb?

reens

 

[reen12]

OK. I see that you are expanding on this, in the following post.

reens

 

[reen12]

PART 2

“More” is a strange word really in this particular context, for I can equally say “less”. God is in fact more Merciful and less judgmental. As He is less Merciful and more Judgmental. He is in fact more and less Merciful, more and less Judgemental.

***…***There then arises three options.

• I can retreat into atheism and refuse to believe that God exists.
• Two - I can hold that He is a cruel and uncaring God.
• Three - I can confess I do not understand God at all.
  …The conclusion, that I am fast reaching, is that the
  Judeo-Christian scriptures were man’s attempts to
  explain why** life was so hard, and sometimes bitterly unjust.

On the other hand of course, it can equally be said, that atheism is man’s attempt to make sense of life that is often hard and bitterly unjust……………i.e. God, under these circumstances, simply cannot exist. It is not so much belief or unbelief that offends, as it is holding to God’s Loving Existence and then trying stupidly to explain it and justify it…………God is totally beyond explanation in every way. He simply is. He is the I Am Who Am.
***Cont…Part 3 ***

As a child, I was desperate for meaning.
By happenstance [grace?] I was in a Catholic gradeschool.
Comes the little catechism, given, at age 6, to prepare for First Communion.

What did I find? God exists, He is Creator, I am to ‘know Him,
love Him and serve Him, in this world, and be happy with Him in the next.’
The soft sunlight, coming through the windows, washed over the pages of this little book.
All of this seemed manifestly true, to a 6 year old heart and mind. It still does.

Next thing I know, I’m being told about original sin, Jesus,
hellfire, mediators, the list seemed endless. I memorized it all,
as was required. But I resisted this teaching. That’s why, for me,
all of this is introject. Who is Jesus, and why are they talking about Him,
I thought then. Had I been able to, I would never have sat there and listened to all of this.

Fast forward, six years. Now I’m seeing an elderly neighbor,
going to temple, to help form a *minyan. *I watched, quietly,
as I saw this good and soft-spoken man, on his way to temple,
to express his love of God. No proclaiming Judaism, did he -
for Judaism seeks not converts.

Later, I find that - in Orthodox Judaism - the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures,
[the Pentateuch] are to be held as complied by Moses, as dictated by God.

By this time, my ‘willing suspension of disbelief’ evaporates.

Now, too, I’m considering the fact that Christianity posits the existence of an ontological sin,
a sin in man’s very being, said to be ‘inherited’ from Adam. [original sin.] This, to me, is manifestly untrue. The dominant teaching, in Judaism, rejects this notion, utterly.
[The doctrine of ‘concupisence’ is nearer the Judaic *yetzers.]

In Christian doctrine, evil is said to exist, because of man’s free will, original sin,
and concupisence.

[continued in following post]

reens

 

[reen12]

I find Judaic thought far more redolent of Who God is, than I do Christian scriptures and doctrine, in terms of that which is held in common, by Christians.Yet even in the Hebrew scriptures, what is found, in essence, is the acknowledgement of one God, the articulation of the natural law, [the commandments,] and the realities of Godhead. [no graven images,
no other gods, the sabbath as sacred to Him, His Name is to be held holy.]

That - to the Decalogue - was added 613 mizvoth, reflects the human need to codify,
clarify and define, while claiming that all of this is from Almighty God Himself.
e.g. the Pentateuch, held to be dictated, by God, to Moses.]

Part of one’s identity is that which is accepted - as constitutive of reality…

The adjectival seems to get a hearty workout, when one states, basically,
“I don’t think so,” about given beliefs - as expressed in formal doctrines.

I understand the words found in Zechariah:

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

I don’t know how, and I don’t need to, yet those words speak to me and for me.
Beyond the reach of intellect, I know these words to be true. Perhaps this is
the meaning of ‘faith.’ I hear the God of Israel, and I know, then, the meaning
of the words ‘Be still and know that I am God.’ And it is in the shelter of His wings,
that all questions die on one’s lips, and we become still.

reen

 

[reen12]

……….Alleluia Amen!..you got it Reen!..no real compliment methinks, Reen, remember that I’m crazy…

I have to think that general looniness is an endowment,
made for His purposes.
What these are, I’ve no idea, most of the time.
Yet one is put in mind of shattered vessels.
Cracked pots, from which may flow the waters of Siloe, if He so chooses.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

“Let us sing a new song unto the Lord.”

And cracked pots hum, nicely, when a breeze is blowing.
Singing the song of a cracked pot. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reens

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Reens…I hope my posts didn’t give you (or anyone) a headache…they did me!

That’s getting to the reality, Barb. And why I say that I defend God,
even as I berate Him. Yet not Him, but the ‘descriptions’ of Him.
No human being will ever comprehend I AM.

The moment one has a definition and concept of God, one can be assured that one needs to let go of it because it is only a human concept and in ‘human orbit’ is all it is. God simply is and The Totally Other.

In Camus’ play, Caligula, the mad emperor, at the end of the play, says
"All one need do is to be logical to the very end.’
To me, it’s madness, to try to ‘justify the ways of God to men.’

We simply cannot justify God’s ways "My Ways are not your ways, nor My Thoughts your thoughts. All we can do is accept His Ways because accept or not God’s Ways Are.

To try to raise logic - in an apotheosis of same - to ‘defend the
ways of God’ with men,’ is to make unto oneself a false god.
Logic - as ‘applied’ to God. Same is to violate the commandment:
Thou shalt not misuse My Name.

… …

The neat and tidy, the sure and the certain, have no place
in the face of great evil.

We do tend to grope for them, and sometimes if we find a place where we can live with the reality of that overwhelming evil and our Faith and explain it all (personal security), our whole self is not really engaged with reality…and the reality that is the evil.

No one has greater respect for logic than I do, and that’s
perhaps why I reject - out of hand - any attempt to explain
God’s actions. Logic must fold it’s tents and withdraw.

… …

Can you expand on this, Barb?
" He is more than all that – even it could be said, less than all that"

God is more and God is less. One statement cancels out the other…because God cannot be more nor less because “more” “less” and even the whole statement “He is more than all that - even it could be said, less than all that” is merely a human concept.
God and the nature of God is the Absolute Unknown…yet “No one comes to The Father except through Me” - in Jesus we see God if He were a human being, because in Jesus the impossible has entered into time and space broken into absolutely ‘human orbit’: God becomes human in Jesus - fully human and yet fully divine.
What we humans cannot do, is with our almost ‘adored logic’ find laws that will predict and thus ‘contain’ God. We cannot understand God, in fact, logic cannot even find God. Logic I think though can and does set up its own idols including making an idol of itself. Logic is indeed a wondrous Gift and can tell us something about God, even if it is only that God is not logical as we insight it. Logic however is limited and even fallible. Logic is fallible simply because it cannot define. nor prove and ‘contain’ God, it cannot even ‘see’ God. Logic is faulted and is not ‘a or the god’. This calls to mind “I have come to set son against father, mother against daughter”. There is that conflict in humankind betwee the advocates of logic as infallible and those who claim to be gifted with Faith. At times and in my very own ‘house’ logic and Faith are at war.
Reeny, I really am outside of my comfort zone and in deep waters and not too sure I can swim (make sense). I can only hope that perhaps I might and fluke “make sense” in The Lord’s generosity.

Blessings and my regards…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I find Judaic thought far more redolent of Who God is, than I do Christian scriptures and doctrine, in terms of that which is held in common, by Christians.Yet even in the Hebrew scriptures, what is found, in essence, is the acknowledgement of one God, the articulation of the natural law, [the commandments,] and the realities of Godhead. [no graven images,
no other gods, the sabbath as sacred to Him, His Name is to be held holy.]

That - to the Decalogue - was added 613 mizvoth, reflects the human need to codify,
clarify and define, while claiming that all of this is from Almighty God Himself.
e.g. the Pentateuch, held to be dictated, by God, to Moses.]

Part of one’s identity is that which is accepted - as constitutive of reality…

The adjectival seems to get a hearty workout, when one states, basically,
“I don’t think so,” about given beliefs - as expressed in formal doctrines.

I understand the words found in Zechariah:

Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men of every nationality, speaking different tongues, shall take hold, yes, take hold of every Jew by the edge of his garment and say,
“Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”

I don’t know how, and I don’t need to, yet those words speak to me and for me.
Beyond the reach of intellect, I know these words to be true. Perhaps this is
the meaning of ‘faith.’ I hear the God of Israel, and I know, then, the meaning
of the words ‘Be still and know that I am God.’ And it is in the shelter of His wings,
that all questions die on one’s lips, and we become still.

reen

“In my Father’s House, there are many mansions”.

What we cannot understand, we tend to fear and with fear “fight or flight” checks in…and with our concepts etc. etc. re Faith and religion, often we choose “fight” and can, in doing so, destroy the very essence of Faith and religion in the life of humanity. That dominance of the strongest clicks into place too…it is the strongest argument that rules the weaker argument - hence ‘the pack’. And so we really do fight to assume the strongest argument. Until we can let go of all these things, we are not yet fully human because we are still operating on the level of animal kingdom. We are no longer animals with tusks to fight for dominance, we are humans with words and indeed the pen can leave the sword for absolute dead at the start line.

What dreadful things have happened and indeed happen in our world over ideas and human concepts. I read somewhere that we cannot have Peace in our world until we are Peace in our world…until I am Peace in my world, my environment.

What is Truth and are there objective truths? I believe there are and that Truth (capital “T”) is Absolute Truth. But we need to seek for these hand in hand…not hand on sword looking at you with suspicion and anger…for then I am no longer looking for Truth and truth - rather I am looking at the other in suspicion and anger and engagement will not be with the search for Truth and truth…rather with the other and my need to dominate, to win, to control, to be leader of the pack. And the resolution of that in my favour will be my personal Truth and truth.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I have to think that general looniness is an endowment,
made for His purposes.
What these are, I’ve no idea, most of the time.
Yet one is put in mind of shattered vessels.
Cracked pots, from which may flow the waters of Siloe, if He so chooses.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/shatteredvessel-1.jpg

“Let us sing a new song unto the Lord.”

And cracked pots hum, nicely, when a breeze is blowing.
Singing the song of a cracked pot. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reens

Time Magazine roughly 1974 - article headline “In an insane world, the sane will be considered insane”…and to my mind our world is crazy. What is crazy - what do I mean by crazy? It is so different from me it needs to be punished, rehabilitated and fall into line with me and not rock my jolly boat as these waters of life we charter are dangerous waters indeed and we all need to stick together and do something about those who don’t or the boat may sink and all of us in it

And cracked pots hum, nicely, when a breeze is blowing.
Singing the song of a cracked pot. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

…La de dah dee dah. We are the cracked pots singing the Song of The Cracked Pots as the gentle breeze moves in our midst …la de dah dee dah.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I was thinking about a book I had read, when it popped into my mind “Am I sure I am asking myself the right questions? let alone searching out the right answers” And the truth is that no, I do not know if I am even asking myself the right questions, let alone seeking out the right answers. The only response to this, is a favourite saying of mine…“and on we go, always the journey”…

Part of one’s identity is that which is accepted - as constitutive of reality…

What IS reality…reality simply IS and has many frontiers including the inner personal to me. Reality in essence can neither be right nor wrong - for it simply is.
“I Am Who Am” …and I am who I am …you are who you are and we are who we are…but who am I, who are you, who are we…that is where we flounder…

 

[DebChris]

I was thinking about a book I had read, when it popped into my mind “Am I sure I am asking myself the right questions? let alone searching out the right answers” And the truth is that no, I do not know if I am even asking myself the right questions, let alone seeking out the right answers. The only response to this, is a favourite saying of mine…“and on we go, always the journey”…

What IS reality…reality simply IS and has many frontiers including the inner personal to me. Reality in essence can neither be right nor wrong - for it simply is.
“I Am Who Am” …and I am who I am …you are who you are and we are who we are…but who am I, who are you, who are we…that is where we flounder…

I never took the required Theology class at the first college I attended. I remember the orientation, at least the following.
When reading the Bible, “Don’t look for the answers. Look for the questions.”
It was a freeing statement for me, especially as I did not know what friends in high school meant about opening the Bible to find the answers (roulette style).
It is only in finding the questions that I could find the answers. Case in point. Genesis talks about a man leaving his mother and father and clinging to his wife. The 4th Commandment is “Honor your father and mother that you may live long in the land.” Answer: Tobit.
The leader of a prayer group to which I once belonged used to say, “The only problem with God is that He thinks He’s God.”

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I never took the required Theology class at the first college I attended. I remember the orientation, at least the following.
When reading the Bible, “Don’t look for the answers. Look for the questions.”
It was a freeing statement for me, especially as I did not know what friends in high school meant about opening the Bible to find the answers (roulette style).
It is only in finding the questions that I could find the answers. Case in point. Genesis talks about a man leaving his mother and father and clinging to his wife. The 4th Commandment is “Honor your father and mother that you may live long in the land.” Answer: Tobit.
The leader of a prayer group to which I once belonged used to say, “The only problem with God is that He thinks He’s God.”

Hi again DebChris…I have never taken a theology course per se of any kind, though it is a fascinating subject to me. The problem with God to us humans is that He Is indeed God?
In Scripture it can seem to me that one quotation/instruction/whatever seems to cancel out something else…but it all comes together for me in Jesus. I dont think that all may have this experience…and it remains a fascinating question - What is reality and Reality? We can be so very mistaken thinking that we are not - as a very simple example: Sighting my bus in the distance I say “Here comes my bus at last”…but as it moves closer and the number on the bus becomes clear, it is not my bus at all." But another person at the bus stop says “This is my bus and it is far too early” i.e. what we do conceive to be real and Reality, may well prove not to be real nor Reality at all…or is it - the bus simply is and it is a particular bus, and what I think and anyone else thinks, cannot change what it actually is nor its particular identity.

This is where for me and with great gratitude Faith steps in and states what IS reality and Reality. Not all have this experience either…certainly I think my Faith keeps me ‘sane’ and my psychiatrist happy that I am not rocking any boats anywhere and she called to account - or am I just steps ahead of her?..my Chemist, however, who fills my prescriptions has probably had a drop in income and is not so happy - or am I buying more products in his shop to be kind and keeping his income stable? I, my family and friensd, are happy because I am not put into hospital and the reason for that I am happy to accept as my ‘reality’ of top priority transcended only by my Faith which keeps me able to avoid hospital amongst other matters. My parish and diocesan authority are happy because I have learnt the discpline of “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” in the interests of survival rather than virtue - not that either are perturbed about prime cause, only results. Ahhh reality, society and humans.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I first read The Bible from cover to cover when I was 7yrs old because I found there were such wonderful stories in The Bible and many stories, a book of short stories. Tobias is one of them…I am re reading Tobias (since you mentioned it) and simply as a story as I did as a child rather than picking out or looking for quotations to support or knock down my concepts or that of others. In reading this way, as an entire story from beginning to end, one grasps I think the underlying spirit and the spirit of The Law rather than its letter. As one reads, what is between the lines or the spirit is ‘picked up’ by one’s own spirit. In much the same way as music (rather than the lyrics which speak to ‘the head’) carries the spirit along with it. As The Word of God it becomes even more powerful and formative than all that. My take only!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

From Anthony de Mello (Vatican has warned against some of the writings of de Mello; however what I am quoting below is not contrary to Church teaching) …text below has sections edited out…
soulwise.net/99adm03.htm

Remember that sentence from Paul: "If I give my body to be burned and all my goods to feed the poor and have not love . . ". It’s not your actions, it’s your being that counts. Then you might swing into action. You might or might not. You can’t decide that until you’re awake. Unfortunately, all the emphasis is concentrated on changing the world and very little emphasis is given to waking up. When you wake up, you will know what to do or what not to do. Some mystics are very strange, you know. Like Jesus, who said something like “I wasn’t sent to those people; I limit myself to what I am supposed to do right now. Later, maybe”. Some mystics go silent. Mysteriously, some of them sing songs. Some of them are into service. We’re never sure. They’re a law unto themselves; they know exactly what is to be done. “Plunge into the heat of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord”, as I said to you earlier.

Imagine that you’re unwell and in a foul mood, and they’re taking you through some lovely countryside. The landscape is beautiful but you’re not in the mood to see anything. A few days later you pass the same place and you say, “Good heavens, where was I that I didn’t notice all of this”? Everything becomes beautiful when you change. Or you look at the trees and the mountains through windows that are wet with rain from a storm, and everything looks blurred and shapeless. You want to go right out there and change those trees, change those mountains. Wait a minute, let’s examine your window. When the storm ceases and the rain stops, and you look out the window, you say, “Well, how different everything looks”. We see people and things not as they are, but as we are. That is why when two people look at something or someone, you get two different reactions. We see things and people not as they are, but as we are.
…No, not sour like a lemon, but sour like a mango. “But I never tasted one”, you say. Too bad! But you go ahead and write a doctoral thesis on it. You wouldn’t have if you had tasted it. You really wouldn’t. You’d have written a doctoral thesis on other things, but not on mangoes. And the day you finally taste a green mango, you say, " I made a fool of myself. I shouldn’t have written that thesis". That’s exactly what Thomas Aquinas did.

A great German philosopher and theologian wrote a whole book specifically on the silence of St. Thomas. He simply went silent. Wouldn’t talk. In the prologue of his Summa Theologica, which was the summary of all his theology, he says, “About God, we cannot say what He is but rather what He is not. And so we cannot speak about how He is but rather how He is not”.

• This is a canonized saint of the Roman Catholic Church, the prince of theologians for centuries. To know God as unknown. In another place St. Thomas even says as unknowable. Reality, God, divinity, truth, love are unknowable; that means they cannot be comprehended by the thinking mind. That would set at rest so many questions people have because we’re always living under the illusion that we know. We don’t. We cannot know.
• A man born blind comes to me and asks, “What is this thing called green”? How does one describe the color green to someone who was born blind? One uses analogies. So I say, “The color green is something like soft music”. “Oh”, he says, “like soft music”. “Yes”, I say, “soothing and soft music”. So a second blind man comes to me and asks, “What is the color green”? I tell him it’s something like soft satin, very soft and soothing to the touch. So the next day I notice that the two blind men are bashing each other over the head with bottles.

One is saying, “It’s soft like music”; the other is saying, “It’s soft like satin”. And on it goes. Neither of them knows what they’re talking about, because if they did, they’d shut up. It’s as bad as that. It’s even worse, because one day, say, you give sight to this blind man, and he’s sitting there in the garden and he’s looking all around him, and you say to him, “Well, now you know what the color green is”. And he answers, “That’s true. I heard some of it this morning!”

The fact is that you’re surrounded by God and you don’t see God, because you “know” about God. The final barrier to the vision of God is your God concept. You miss God because you think you know. … That’s what the gospels were saying, that religious people “knew”, so they got rid of Jesus. The highest knowledge of God is to know God as unknowable.

…signature ditched - I’ve taken up enough space in this thread…

 

[BarbaraTherese]

By 1958, I knew that I only had me to turn to.
And that was to lean on a pathetically weak reed.
Life, to me, was utterly absurd, a complete farce.
[Remember how we used to say that Christ is Lord of the absurd?
Maybe that’s the clue, Barb. Christ is *Logos

• the source of meaning.
  Only the Lord of the absurd can triumph over same.]

My eye just caught the above , Reen…Jesus said “I will not break the bruised reed, nor quench the smoking flax”. We are so ready to crush where we sight any sort of weakness in many diverse matters - but not so Jesus. Thus when I find in myself a readiness and desire to crush through some sort of force of opposition, then I am not in imitation of The Lord. He has come indeed for the weak, bruised and the smoking candles. Great lines in the Canticale of Zachariah:
“He will give light to those in darkness
Those who dwell in the shadow of death
Amd guide us into the ways of Peace”

Life and the call to live it can be absurd I think to logic - and logic is not to be disdained as it is a gift from God as somehow reflecting Him and capable of telling us something about Him - but it is not infallible nor without boundaries…and when we come up against what will not make sense to us it is a “play in the theatre of the absurd” And Yes - Christ is indeed The Lord of the Dance and Lord of the Absurd. And The Lord triumphs over both simply because He is choreographer and dancer in one - and Master of the other. What is more absurd to logic than that God should become human like us in all things except sin? Yet He does. To logic this is what logic calls the anthropomorphism of God and illogical. Is Jesus God, or is He not? Is jesus not still fully human and fully God?..and even in His Glorified Self after His resurrection, Jesus prepares a meal for his apostles"9 As soon then as they came to land, they saw hot coals lying, and a fish laid thereon, and bread. 10 Jesus saith to them: Bring hither of the fishes which you have now caught. ".What is more of an abandoned dance and a riot of colour than to observe nature in all its wildness and cruelty, tenderness, and the wondrous variety of human nature - and our own strange dance through the journey of our days. What sense can we make of all this - none, it is a Divine Madness we would have to call it logically.
My computer is sick of me.I type and then it prints out in the reply facility only about 30 seconds after I finish typing has elapsed. I am going to bed! 9.33pm here Wed 20Aug.

 

[uglygal]

All the easy answers - about how God permits evil, free will, and all the rest of it -
then He asks us to pray…

Why?

Since He knew, from eternity, that that little girl would suffer like hell -
what’s the sense of praying for* anything*?
That His ‘vast, eternal plan’ included allowing this child to
suffer the rigors of hell - He can take His plan and keep it.

God made this world. He is responsible for all of these innocents.
He could stop this in an instant. But He doesn’t. Then He
is titled Merciful, Compassionate, Wonderful Counselor…

How come the Wonderful Counselor has to be informed, by His
creatures, that a 3 year old is now in a horrible situation?
Doesn’t He know? Doesn’t He care?

Big time ‘double-message’ - from the Almighty.

I wouldn’t want to disturb Him - in His glory, by asking Him to intervene,
on behalf of a 3 year old.

It’s all about Him, right? Not about that little girl.
The celestial Narcissist, who’s too busy tending to His august ego
‘I"m God, you know’] to take a few moments to rescue a 3 year old
from hellish circumstances.

If this is the ‘God of mercy,’ then the definition of mercy might
need re-tooling - to reflect the actual attributes of this deity.
Out to lunch.

Or am I now to be told how Jesus suffered for 3 hours, and
I should consider God’s graciousness, in ‘saving’ us.
Tell it to that little girl.

reen12

Hi reen!
Reading this made me smile
Not because it is funny or amusing, but because I have yelled and screamed these almost exact words at God myself.

I don’t have any ‘theological’ answers or thoughts to offer. Theology is not my specialty, but in my opinion you questions, anger and accusations are normal and healthy.
God can take your accusations and anger. When you finish, He will give you a few moments to calm down and say “so nice to finally meet you”.

IMO you are getting to know God, and seeing how ridiculous theodicy’s appear to those who suffer. In the book of Job, God dismissed all “advice” and “explanations” given by Job’s ‘friends’ who could so easily talk from atop their pain-free pedestal. Job didn’t settle for it, in fact he raged against it and God did not get angry. In fact, I think he praised Job for it.

 

[DebChris]

Hi reen!
Reading this made me smile
Not because it is funny or amusing, but because I have yelled and screamed these almost exact words at God myself.

I don’t have any ‘theological’ answers or thoughts to offer. Theology is not my specialty, but in my opinion you questions, anger and accusations are normal and healthy.
God can take your accusations and anger. When you finish, He will give you a few moments to calm down and say “so nice to finally meet you”.

IMO you are getting to know God, and seeing how ridiculous theodicy’s appear to those who suffer. In the book of Job, God dismissed all “advice” and “explanations” given by Job’s ‘friends’ who could so easily talk from atop their pain-free pedestal. Job didn’t settle for it, in fact he raged against it and God did not get angry. In fact, I think he praised Job for it.

Why pray is as individual as each of us. At the moment the story of St. Theresa of Avila crosses my mind.
As she falls from her horse into the river, she raises her fist to heaven, “How could you?”
“I chastise those I love.”
“No wonder you have so few friends.”

In my own arguments with God, it is He who has always won. I would have it no other way.
“It is in weakness that power reaches perfection” is my response to today’s Job’s comforters who say “If only you had faith…”

 

[reen12]

Time Magazine roughly 1974 - article headline “In an insane world, the sane will be considered insane”…and to my mind our world is crazy…
…we all need to stick together and do something about those who don’t or the boat may sink and all of us in it

…La de dah dee dah. We are the cracked pots singing the Song of The Cracked Pots as the gentle breeze moves in our midst …la de dah dee dah.

You know what this made me think of, Barb?

Those of the cracked pot are sometimes like Bartimeus,
shouting out the name of Jesus. Everyone
was telling him to shut up, and not disturb
the Lord. Not Bartimaeus. He shouted all
the louder “Son of David, have mercy on me!”

Now Jesus tells His disciples to bring this
noisy man to Him. “What do you wish Me to do for you?”
“Lord, that I may see.”
Bartimaeus wasn’t concerned with the niceties.
He was desperate des espoir - without hope.]
Desperation rarely speaks in soft tones.
This was no matter of ‘let us reason together.’
Help!!!
[That’s what Peter said, slipping under the waters.]
Presaging baptism?

“I was sinking, and He pulled me out of the mire,
and set me on a high place.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A cracked pot minces no words.

“I was going down, for the third time, and
something happened. I can’t remember what it was.”
I was all overwhelmed and confused and then I was safe."

“Hide me in the shelter of Your wings.”
And peering out, through the feathers,
is better.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Those mires are scary. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen

 

[reen12]

Time Magazine roughly 1974 - article headline “In an insane world, the sane will be considered insane”…and to my mind our world is crazy. What is crazy - what do I mean by crazy? It is so different from me it needs to be punished, rehabilitated and fall into line with me and not rock my jolly boat as these waters of life we charter are dangerous waters indeed and we all need to stick together and do something about those who don’t or the boat may sink and all of us in it

…La de dah dee dah. We are the cracked pots singing the Song of The Cracked Pots as the gentle breeze moves in our midst …la de dah dee dah.

You know what this made me think of Barb?

Those of the cracked pot are sometimes like Bartimeus,
shouting out the name of Jesus. Everyone
was telling him to shut up, and not disturb
the Lord. Not Bartimaeus. He shouted all
the louder “Son of David, have mercy on me!”
Now Jesus tells His disciples to bring this
noisy man to Him. “What do you wish Me to do for you?”
“Lord, that I may see.”
Bartimaeus wasn’t concerned with the niceties.
He was desperate des espoir - without hope.]
Desperation rarely speaks in soft tones.
This was no matter of ‘let us reason together.’
Help!!!
[That’s what Peter said, slipping under the waters.]
Presaging baptism?

“I was sinking, and He pulled me out of the mire,
and set me on a high place.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A cracked pot minces no words.

“I was going down, for the third time, and
something happened. I can’t remember what it was.”
I was all overwhelmed and confused and then I was safe."

“Hide me in the shelter of Your wings.”
And peering out, through the feathers,
is better. Those mires are awful.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reens

 

[reen12]

Time Magazine roughly 1974 - article headline “In an insane world, the sane will be considered insane”…and to my mind our world is crazy. What is crazy - what do I mean by crazy? It is so different from me it needs to be punished, rehabilitated and fall into line with me and not rock my jolly boat as these waters of life we charter are dangerous waters indeed and we all need to stick together and do something about those who don’t or the boat may sink and all of us in it

…La de dah dee dah. We are the cracked pots singing the Song of The Cracked Pots as the gentle breeze moves in our midst …la de dah dee dah.

You know what this made me think of, Barb?

Those of the cracked pot are sometimes like Bartimeus,
shouting out the name of Jesus. Everyone
was telling him to shut up, and not disturb
the Lord. Not Bartimaeus. He shouted all
the louder “Son of David, have mercy on me!”
Now Jesus tells His disciples to bring this
noisy man to Him. “What do you wish Me to do for you?”
“Lord, that I may see.”
Bartimaeus wasn’t concerned with the niceties.
He was desperate des espoir - without hope.]
Desperation rarely speaks in soft tones.
This was no matter of ‘let us reason together.’
Help!!!
[That’s what Peter said, slipping under the waters.]

“I was sinking, and He pulled me out of the mire,
and set me on a high place.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

A cracked pot minces no words.

“I was going down, for the third time, and
something happened. I can’t remember what it was.”
I was all overwhelmed and confused and then I was safe."

“Hide me in the shelter of Your wings.”

And peering out, through the feathers,
is better. It is safe and warm there, with
no mires around. And the mind and heart
of a cracked pot is soothed by the heartbeat of God.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reens

 

[DebChris]

…
Life and the call to live it can be absurd I think to logic - and logic is not to be disdained as it is a gift from God as somehow reflecting Him and capable of telling us something about Him - but it is not infallible nor without boundaries…

Faith without reason (fundamentalism) can lead to violence.
Reason without faith can lead to violence (rationalism).
In a healthy culture, faith is open to rational critique and reason has been opened that revealed what religion teaches—Francis Cardinal George (10/1/06)

The parts of the soul as described in Cloud of Unknowing.
Mind (includes Memory) holds and embraces four faculties:

1. Reason distinguishes evil from good.
2. Will by which we love God, desire God, and ultimately dwell in God.
3. Inspiration by which we picture anything past as well as present.
4. Sensuality affects and controls all bodily reaction, both pleasant and unpleasant functioning to provide for physical needs and appetites.

Worry about nothing. Pray about everything.

Just as our adulthood shows the marks of the struggles of our youth, so our solitude bears the signs of lonely hours, our care for others reflects at time angry feelings and our prayer sometimes reveals the memory and the presence of many illusions. Transformed in love, however, these painful signs become signs of hope, as the wounds of Jesus did for the doubting Thomas—Henri Nouwen.