Why pray?

[Mystic_Warrior]

No. Nothing doing.

There is* nothing* that justifies the suffering of that little girl.
Not here or hereafter.

According to your limited human perspective - and mine.

God is ultimately responsible for the suffering of innocents.
There is no reality, in this universe - or any other universe -
that justifies the hell that that 3 year old child was confronted with.

No, He’s not. How do you know what she experienced? Do you know the story behind it? Do you know the circumstances?

The agonizing suffering of a grown man, at the height of his powers -
for 3 hours, does not a thing to justify a world in which God
knew little ones would suffer.

reen12

This isn’t about comparing the suffering of Christ to our suffering. What does that comparison have to do with it?

Peace…

MW

 

[reen12]

I think there’s a difference in that the Heavenly Father knows all and the earthly father does not. An earthly father may intervene at his child’s peril. For instance, in order to shield his child from making a poor choice, he is in effect not letting his child experience failure.

Failure, pain, hardship and a host of other things are part of life as we know it. We humans have created what you see here. We have created the evil that we perpetuate as a race and society.

The Heavenly Father does intervene sometimes - when it is necessary and fulfills the purpose of the human. However, he does not violate our free choice. This life isn’t meant to be perfect and free from pain at all. It’s meant to be a learning experience wherein we learn what good and evil really are.

Peace…

MW

Thank you for your thoughts, Mystic Warrior.

I had written, earlier in this thread, that a human father may have
to be apprised that a situation existed in which his help was
needed. Additionally, I had written:

quote: reen12

Parental intervention removes opportunities to mature,
in some instances. No problem with that.

The instance that haunts, is the 3 year old child who was
abducted in Portugal. What has happened to her?
Taken in the night, from love and Mommy, where is this little girl now?
Can her confusion and terror even be imagined?

I don’t give a hoot what happens to adults, in a limited sense.
They at least have fully rational minds, and can at least
understand that evil exists in the world. But not a child.

How, in the name of all that’s holy, Christians - or any other
believers - can roll off ‘answers,’ in a horrible situation like that,
stupifies me. "God gives man free will. The father of humanity
had a wife who had a taste for apple dumplings, and that
‘explains’ everything.’ It does?

I don’t give a hoot, either, as to which ‘lessons’ God wants me
or any other adult to learn. But not a 3 year old little girl.

“Deliver us from all that is evil…” It didn’t ‘work’ for this little girl,
did it?

It all looks grand, on paper. God’s ‘vast, eternal plan.’

The charts, crafted in His defense, are masterpieces of human ingenuity.
But that’s all they are. Job challenged God, and God deflected Job’s questions.
In essence -----> “I’m bigger and stronger than you.”

And to top it off, God ‘restores’ to Job that which had been taken.
Are children replaceable? The author of Job apparently didn’t
want to go there. A failed attempt at 'deus ex machina.’
Job - sitting at a new table, with new dishes, and new children.
Evidently, might makes right. “Were you there when I laid out
the heavens?”

“No. Was I supposed to be?”

reen12

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Thank you for your thoughts, Mystic Warrior.

You are welcome. I hope you know I’m not challenging your theology. I understand evil. I understand heartache. I’ve experienced it. And I think you have too. I just want to share my thoughts on it. And, I don’t want to appeal to Scripture to make my points. I could, but I think it’s important that it not come into play here.

It all looks grand, on paper. God’s ‘vast, eternal plan.’

The charts, crafted in His defense, are masterpieces of human ingenuity. But that’s all they are. Job challenged God, and
God deflected his questions. “I’m bigger and stronger than you.”

And to top it off, God ‘restores’ to Job that which had been taken.
Are children replaceable? The author of Job apparently didn’t
want to go there. A failed attempt at 'deus ex machina.’
Job - sitting at a new table, with new dishes, and new children.
Evidently, might makes right. “Were you there when I laid out
the heavens?”

“No. Was I supposed to be?”

reen12

I really don’t have any defenses for God regarding this. I have no elaborate theology to explain my position. That just won’t do. My understanding comes from experience, not from pen and paper. It comes from extreme pain that can never truly be spoken of and expressed. I refer you to my blog for an idea of this.

I think God’s point to Job is what I have told you already. That is, “Job, you don’t know my plans. You really don’t know what’s best for you, even though you think you do. Since you don’t know the end and the beginning why do you question me so?”

That’s my paraphrase of the situation. Yes, there was suffering. Yes, there was pain. But, what I take away from it is that Job didn’t know these things before. He knew good, but he didn’t really know evil. Once he experienced “evil” and all things were restored to him, he then had an amazing appreciation for that good.

For most of my life I’ve experienced good things. Had a pretty good life I’d say. Then I began to experience some horrible things. Those things tore at the very fabric of my being. Slowly, but surely I’ve come to the realization that I am only experiencing what many others have. I now have compassion and can sympathize with others who are hurting. I now have the patience to deal with others in a way I never had before.

Good always - always - always comes from bad events. We may not see it or understand it even if we do see it. I’m grateful now for the bad things. I appreciate goodness, love and mercy now more than I ever have in my life.

Just my thoughts.

Peace…

MW

 

[reen12]

Good always - always - always comes from bad events. We may not see it or understand it even if we do see it. I’m grateful now for the bad things. I appreciate goodness, love and mercy now more than I ever have in my life.

Just my thoughts.

Peace…

MW

I appreciate your further reflections, Mystic Warrior.

Suffering endured may foster humility.
And humus is the word for soil [ground.]

Ground down by suffering, one soars not into regions didactic. Suffering, I have found,
knocked me off my high horse, landing me on the ground, the earth, from which
we are made… No wonder the root of ‘humility’ is humus.

reen12

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I appreciate your further reflections, Mystic Warrior.

Suffering endured may foster humility.
And humus is the word for soil [ground.]

Ground down by suffering, one soars not into regions didactic. Suffering, I have found,
knocked me off my high horse, landing me on the ground, the earth, from which
we are made… No wonder the root of ‘humility’ is humus.

reen12

You are welcome. God bless you.

Peace…

MW

 

[reen12]

Oh Gawd. I put the wrong code for an icon into post # 73
in this thread. It’s not supposed to be a ROFL icon.

It’s too late to fall off my high horse. I’m already on the ground! http://bestsmileys.com/sad/4.gif

reen12

 

[steve_b]

All the easy answers - about how God permits evil, free will, and all the rest of it -
then He asks us to pray…

Why?

Since He knew, from eternity, that that little girl would suffer like hell -
what’s the sense of praying for* anything*?
That His ‘vast, eternal plan’ included allowing this child to
suffer the rigors of hell - He can take His plan and keep it.

God made this world. He is responsible for all of these innocents.
He could stop this in an instant. But He doesn’t. Then He
is titled Merciful, Compassionate, Wonderful Counselor…

How come the Wonderful Counselor has to be informed, by His
creatures, that a 3 year old is now in a horrible situation?
Doesn’t He know? Doesn’t He care?

Big time ‘double-message’ - from the Almighty.

I wouldn’t want to disturb Him - in His glory, by asking Him to intervene,
on behalf of a 3 year old.

It’s all about Him, right? Not about that little girl.
The celestial Narcissist, who’s too busy tending to His august ego
‘I"m God, you know’] to take a few moments to rescue a 3 year old
from hellish circumstances.

If this is the ‘God of mercy,’ then the definition of mercy might
need re-tooling - to reflect the actual attributes of this deity.
Out to lunch.

Or am I now to be told how Jesus suffered for 3 hours, and
I should consider God’s graciousness, in ‘saving’ us.
Tell it to that little girl.

reen12

Hi again Reen.

I first talked with you back in 05.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=498718&postcount=83

I’ll bet one of the most frequently asked question (whether verbally or in the silence of one’s heart) is, why do bad things happen to good people and why do good things happen to bad people

when good people are in a blender, and ask God to unplug the blender, only to have the speed upped to frappe speed, one might sigh, as a saint once said, if this is how you treat your friends Lord, no wonder you have so few…right?

All I can say, in my experience, the closer one desires to get to God, the closer and closer one gets to the cross, until you’re on it yourself. It’s above my pay grade to answer why some people are on the cross longer than others. Or that it SEEMS some people escape the cross altogether.

All I know is, this existence isn’t heaven. That comes to those who persevere till the end, in this life.

That’s why it is called faith. It’s a grace and a mystery.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Oh Gawd. I put the wrong code for an icon into post # 73
in this thread. It’s not supposed to be a ROFL icon.

It’s too late to fall off my high horse. I’m already on the ground! http://bestsmileys.com/sad/4.gif

reen12

Sister, don’t worry about it. I missed it anyway

Peace…

MW

 

[DebChris]

There are many of us who experience terror. I have come to know true evil the past year and a half. Little children hurt and abused, people killed, people committed suicide. And I knew them. I’ve asked the question to God many times. Why? I received no answer, but I know there’s a purpose. I just can’t see it.

I understand the feeling.

That’s the thing. We don’t have the answers as to why these things are allowed. But, for me, after everything I’ve been through I trust God and that He knows what He is doing.

I don’t think the bad things that happen are all about “lessons” personally. I think they have more to do with the scope of God’s plan and purpose for each human being. But I know the people who have died close to me were saved from further hurt and pain by them being taken.

It’s not about saying a magic prayer and God being a magic genie. It’s about plans and purposes that our minds cannot fathom.

Peace…

MW

On retreat once, the retreat master talked about making a list of question to ask God when he finally sees him.
I once had a student ask why God did not warn Adam and Eve about the snake.

Why is it that all the life lost during the tsunami was human?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

On retreat once, the retreat master talked about making a list of question to ask God when he finally sees him.

Oh, trust me, I have my own mental list

I once had a student ask why God did not warn Adam and Eve about the snake.

I think the answer to this was clear in the Genesis account. God told them what would happen if they ate of that fruit. He told them not to and even gave them the consequences (rightfully so). Instead of believing God, they believed a lie. If only we follow Him at His word we wouldn’t have to worry about being forewarned.

Why is it that all the life lost during the tsunami was human?

I don’t know. You would have to ask Him. I have some pet theories, but they are pretty much over the top and it gets into a whole other topic. It’s possible that it was collective punishment. It’s possible it was simply a natural disaster that He allowed. I don’t think anyone can say for sure. Another point on the board for the finite mind of man.

Peace…

MW

 

[DebChris]

Oh, we know about God warning Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. The question was why did He not warn them about the snake?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Oh, we know about God warning Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit. The question was why did He not warn them about the snake?

I had to chuckle at this, sorry. He shouldn’t have had to warn them about the snake. That’s the point. The temptation was part of the whole deal I think. Would they believe Him or not? He gave them all the information they needed to make the right choice.

It’s called personal responsibility. They can’t go back like Eve did and say, “well, the snake deceived me! It’s no wonder I made the wrong choice!” She said this and in doing so neglected to take any responsibility for what she had done. She was wrong. And so was he. What did he do? He blamed it on her.

We humans have a real aversion to humility, obedience and responsibility. We have Adam and Eve to thank for that. They were our parents. And ever since that time, we are still pinning everything that happens on God when we should be asking ourselves how we got where we are now.

Peace…

MW

 

[reen12]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Reen

I burst out laughing, when I read what you’d written.
I’ve been out of my ‘comfort zone,’ since I could
stand up and walk!

Childhood indeed saw me most adventuresome re ‘comfort zone’ - altho purely accidentally since I thought mistakenly the world was my oyster:hypno: With age I have had sufficient experience that if I put my head up most of the time I am in the middle of “rapid fire attack”…hence keeping head down is my comfort zone.

As life goes forward, one has a chance to step back
and consider happenings, and even critique same.

Very true, Reens! We can learn from the past and it can tell us things for our today and todays to come. I took immediately to a line in Bob Dylan: today is tomorrow’s yesterdays…for a while I had it up on Bethany’s walls here with my addition “so be a busy making good memories, for one day and if you get real lucky, a good memory will be your today’s reality”.

“What’s with this ‘naming’ things?” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
pace God - what with Adam being invited to name the animals]

…and man has taken it to the ridiculous and absurd?
It can all be confusing to me because the danger remains and I have seen it quite often that either those using the ‘big language’ do not comprehend what the actual word implies, whereas others do. I fall into the former!

The moment one names something, a gap opens - between
the phenomenon named, and the ‘namer.’

Once ‘named,’ an attitude forms, vis a vis the named.

My mind wont go round the above, Reen. I just can’t grasp your concepts because my mind for some reason is going, I think, into switch off mode. I have asked my doctor about this along with my dreadful memory…age and medication is the diagnosis.
Sometimes I can look at a statement written, or read something and my mind tells me that I understand it, but my understanding has lost its ‘memory function’.

God understands this. He left it to John and Paul to name things.
But He left us stories.

In illo tempore…'Once upon a time…"
“A man was set upon by robbers…”

“And then what happened?..”. http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

Jesus made it all so simple to my mind…religion makes it complex. All the complexities of rules and regulations, isms andwhole documents re this and that etc. etc. does make religion very complex even completely too complex for the person in the street - I know, I’m one of them. Quite often in reply to the statement that I am Catholic I can get the answer “Its all too complex for me”…immediately Catholics dive into their “book of knowledge with address and reply” and have not heard at all what was said.

We so often work at cross-purposes with God.
He’s trying to coax us to consider the human,
while we insist on ‘naming.’ Making a ‘head trip’
out of that which is pilgrimage. He stressing
the relational, while we stress the definitional.

… …

 

[DebChris]

I just came from a Revival sponsored by the African Affairs Ministry.
How can the Sudanese Choir Sing with all that is happening in Sudan and Dafur? Because prayer takes us away from where the world, with all its bad news, would keep us.
We were invited to touch the hem of Jesus, like the woman with a hemorhage, along with Eucharistic Adoration.
Today was the first night of the two night revival. Tomorrow’s theme is “Getting a Renewed Attitude through the Beattitudes.”
Also known as the be/attitudes.

 

[steve_b]

I had to chuckle at this, sorry. He shouldn’t have had to warn them about the snake. That’s the point. The temptation was part of the whole deal I think. Would they believe Him or not? He gave them all the information they needed to make the right choice.

mystic:
It’s called personal responsibility. They can’t go back like Eve did and say, “well, the snake deceived me! It’s no wonder I made the wrong choice!” She said this and in doing so neglected to take any responsibility for what she had done. She was wrong. And so was he. What did he do? He blamed it on her.

We humans have a real aversion to humility, obedience and responsibility. We have Adam and Eve to thank for that. They were our parents. And ever since that time, we are still pinning everything that happens on God when we should be asking ourselves how we got where we are now.

Peace…

MW

As you know it got even worse. Adam said to God, it was the woman YOU gave me. :doh2: talk about a bone head comment!!!

 

[reen12]

steve_b:
As you know it got even worse. Adam said to God, it was the woman YOU gave me. :doh2: talk about a bone head comment!!!

Maybe Adam was just giving God a ribbing. http://bestsmileys.com/cool/1.gif

That snake hasn’t got a leg to stand on.

[Thank you, to whomever wrote that line.]

reen

 

[reen12]

Sister, don’t worry about it. I missed it anyway

Peace…

MW

That is most kind of you, Mystic Warrior.
You walk the walk, and not just talk the talk. :tiphat:

reens

 

[reen12]

Quoting Reen
Childhood indeed saw me most adventuresome re ‘comfort zone’ - altho purely accidentally since I thought mistakenly the world was my oyster:hypno: With age I have had sufficient experience that if I put my head up most of the time I am in the middle of “rapid fire attack”…hence keeping head down is my comfort zone.
Very true, Reens! We can learn from the past and it can tell us things for our today and todays to come. I took immediately to a line in Bob Dylan: today is tomorrow’s yesterdays…for a while I had it up on Bethany’s walls here with my addition “so be a busy making good memories, for one day and if you get real lucky, a good memory will be your today’s reality”.

…and man has taken it to the ridiculous and absurd?
It can all be confusing to me because the danger remains and I have seen it quite often that either those using the ‘big language’ do not comprehend what the actual word implies, whereas others do. I fall into the former!

My mind wont go round the above, Reen. I just can’t grasp your concepts because my mind for some reason is going, I think, into switch off mode. I have asked my doctor about this along with my dreadful memory…age and medication is the diagnosis.
Sometimes I can look at a statement written, or read something and my mind tells me that I understand it, but my understanding has lost its ‘memory function’.
Jesus made it all so simple to my mind…religion makes it complex. All the complexities of rules and regulations, isms andwhole documents re this and that etc. etc. does make religion very complex even completely too complex for the person in the street - I know, I’m one of them. Quite often in reply to the statement that I am Catholic I can get the answer “Its all too complex for me”…immediately Catholics dive into their “book of knowledge with address and reply” and have not heard at all what was said.

… …

Read your post, Barb. Took the med and my eyes are closing.
Will reply on the morrow.

reens

 

[reen12]

Hi again Reen.

I first talked with you back in 05.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=498718&postcount=83

I’ll bet one of the most frequently asked question (whether verbally or in the silence of one’s heart) is, why do bad things happen to good people and why do good things happen to bad people

when good people are in a blender, and ask God to unplug the blender, only to have the speed upped to frappe speed, one might sigh, as a saint once said, if this is how you treat your friends Lord, no wonder you have so few…right?

All I can say, in my experience, the closer one desires to get to God, the closer and closer one gets to the cross, until you’re on it yourself. It’s above my pay grade to answer why some people are on the cross longer than others. Or that it SEEMS some people escape the cross altogether.

All I know is, this existence isn’t heaven. That comes to those who persevere till the end, in this life.

That’s why it is called faith. It’s a grace and a mystery.

Good to hear from you, steve b

There’s an anecdote from Buddism that I was reminded of,
when I read what you wrote. Will share same, tomorrow.

reen