Why pray?

[reen12]

I’ll start with two verses from Scripture.

Matthew 6:7-8

And.

Mark 11:24

In these two passages Jesus clearly teaches two things. First that your Father in heaven already knows what you need before you ask for it and Second, we should only pray for things that we have already received.

What are the implications of these two teachings? If the Father already knows what we need why do we need to ask in the first place? What does it mean to only ask for things that you have already received? These two verses are inextricably linked. If we ask for the Fathers will to be done isn’t it already being done? If we ask for God to have mercy hasn’t He already had mercy? If we ask Him to comfort us in our time of trouble isn’t He already doing that? If we ask Him to deliver us from evil in the eternal sense hasn’t He already done that. In fact if He already knows what we need if we are truly asking for something “in Jesus Name”, that is according to who Jesus is, that means it has to be something God has already given us.

So that brings us to the next question, why pray in the first place? If God is already giving us what we need before we ask, why ask? The answer is simple, we don’t pray in the hope that we will “get” something. Prayer serves two purposes, it is Eucharistic (giving thanks to God) and doxological (giving praise to God). Prayer serves as one of the primary ways we have communion with God. God created us for communion with Himself. So in a real sense when we pray we are doing what we were created to do and being what we were created to be. When we achieve pure prayer we remove all of the distortion of our fallen, unnatural state and see the Uncreated Light of the Glory of God. Then we become truly human.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Thank you for your reply, Joe. Can you help me out, here?

God created us for communion with Himself. So in a real sense when we pray we are doing what we were created to do and being what we were created to be.

Yes. There is a part of me that understands this.
Here’s the question that I can find no answer for.
Last summer, a 3 year old child was kidnapped in
Portugal. She is still missing. I damn near died inside,
when I heard of this. How in the name of God am I supposed
to continue to believe in the deity of Judeo-Christianity?
A God would permit this to happen to a child?

reen12

 

[jpjd]

As to your original question, the answer is, we pray because the Bible tells us to: 1 Thessalonians 5:17 “Pray without ceasing”.

As to your other point, why would God allow this to happen…the real question is, why do WE allow this to happen. We are supposed to be the Body of Christ on earth. Why do WE do things to other people? Why do WE allow suffering to continue?

Obviously, the Word of God has not been heard by all; conversions are needed around the globe. What are YOU doing to help build up the Kingdom?

 

[Techno2000]

Thank you for your reply, Joe. Can you help me out, here?

Yes. There is a part of me that understands this.
Here’s the question that I can find no answer for.
Last summer, a 3 year old child was kidnapped in
Portugal. She is still missing. I damn died inside,
when I heard of this. How in the name of God am I supposed
to continue to believe in the deity of Judeo-Christianity?
A God would permit this to happen to a child?

reen12

I read this from a NDE that said :“Man will Prey on Man, until Man will Pray for Man.”

 

[reen12]

There are too many reasons to pray, and you can look at them in the mirror. And all around you. And if that doesn’t compel you, then know that God commanded you to pray.

And if you refuse, then you are serving yourself, and worshiping yourself…

and not God.

Perhaps I could consult God’s own manual, on that topic.

quote: reen12

It’s all about Him, right? Not about that little girl.
The celestial Narcissist, who’s too busy tending to His august ego
‘I"m God, you know’] to take a few moments to rescue a 3 year old
from hellish circumstances.

reen12

 

[RebeccaJ]

reen12, it is obvious that the suffering of a small, innocent child has brought you to compassion for a complete stranger.

The Catholic teaching on suffering is that it is a necessary aspect of being human.

You compare the suffering for a few hours of a grown man, Christ, but what I have never understood, is why God chose this as the way to the redeem the world. Obviously, as you say, He is omnipotent and could have done anything, in any way, but chose suffering.

In this way, we know that suffering plays an important role, to the world, to us.

None of us can reason out why the suffering of innocents exists. Suffering is complex, and any road you go down leads to “why”. Free will is a component. Suffering leads us to compassion is another. Christ suffered on the cross and calls us to pick up our crosses and follow Him. It is obvious that God knows our suffering exists, and does not ignore its existence.

What you are objecting to is the knowledge that God allows suffering, and it is normal and an age old reaction to be angry at God for allowing suffering. But no one here can tell you definitively, why, it is an aspect of the divine that we don’t know.

So be angry, but know that God understands our suffering, quite well, even when we don’t know the answer to why. The Cross is more than Christ suffering. Jesus’ Mother was at His feet, watching her only Son suffer and die. Those He loved were there as well, suffering with Him, as you are suffering with this small, innocent, stranger.

Maybe pray for understanding.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I was watching last night a program about a man who had been very ill including severe depression and hospitalized for 2half years. He said something that caught my ear well and truly “I dont’t think you can comment or understand unless you have been through similar yourself”. And you know what, I dont think you can. I don’t think I can.
There are times in life for some when all I believe goes into crisis and there is only silence and darkness re my human reason and logic, even about Faith and God…all needs be silent and is literally silenced in non understanding and confusion, and that silence cuts deep, very deep indeed and in a very human way. For some there is Faith and even trust but it can no longer understand, no longer give itself reasons to have Faith and trust. It is either there or it is not - and if it is there, then it is against all human logic and reason, understanding. When someone is suffering dreadfully and most especially the innocents in life, I know only silence where logic and reason, understanding, is concerned. Those who do at these times ask valid and angry questions, I have no answers for at all…none to comfort and console and reassure anyway. I am struck dumb in my unbelief because most often Faith and trust in God is supported by human logic and reason giving sound reasons to believe and drawn from somewhere or other…and often perhaps from an unchallenged in any major way position of security in life.

I recall a woman I know who was going through dreadful suffering and in my nice secure life, I spoke to her from that nice secure life about God and trusting Him. She said to me “Please, please, Barb, don’t speak to me about God”. I grew up a lot that day.

I no longer feel anger at the dreadful suffering of so many innocents in life - expressed anger for me can be cathartic to the situation…but I rather wish I did still experience great anger…rather than experience what amounts to I think interior bleeding from a deep wound of sorrow and sadness that offers nothing to the situation itself whatsoever.

Blessings and regards…Barb
I had missed you in the Forums, Reen, and hoped that it was purely accidental…good to see you are indeed out and about still with courage talking your talk and walking that walk.

 

[Mickey]

Abba Macarius was asked, ‘How should one pray?’ The old man said, 'There is no need at all to make long discourses, it is enough to stretch out one’s hands and say, “Lord, as You will, and as You know, have mercy.” And if the conflict grows fiercer say, “Lord, help!” He knows very well what we need and He shows us His mercy.
Sayings of the Dessert Fathers by Benedicta Ward

 

[reen12]

I was watching last night a program about a man who had been very ill including severe depression and hospitalized for 2half years. He said something that caught my ear well and truly “I dont’t think you can comment or understand unless you have been through similar yourself”. And you know what, I dont think you can. I don’t think I can.
There are times in life for some when all I believe goes into crisis and there is only silence and darkness re my human reason and logic, even about Faith and God…all needs be silent and is literally silenced in non understanding and confusion, and that silence cuts deep, very deep indeed and in a very human way. For some there is Faith and even trust but it can no longer understand, no longer give itself reasons to have Faith and trust. It is either there or it is not - and if it is there, then it is against all human logic and reason, understanding. When someone is suffering dreadfully and most especially the innocents in life, I know only silence where logic and reason, understanding, is concerned. Those who do at these times ask valid and angry questions, I have no answers for at all…none to comfort and console and reassure anyway. I am struck dumb in my unbelief because most often Faith and trust in God is supported by human logic and reason giving sound reasons to believe and drawn from somewhere or other…and often perhaps from an unchallenged in any major way position of security in life.

I recall a woman I know who was going through dreadful suffering and in my nice secure life, I spoke to her from that nice secure life about God and trusting Him. She said to me “Please, please, Barb, don’t speak to me about God”. I grew up a lot that day.

I no longer feel anger at the dreadful suffering of so many innocents in life - expressed anger for me can be cathartic to the situation…but I rather wish I did still experience great anger…rather than experience what amounts to I think interior bleeding from a deep wound of sorrow and sadness that offers nothing to the situation itself whatsoever.

Blessings and regards…Barb
I had missed you in the Forums, Reen, and hoped that it was purely accidental…good to see you are indeed out and about still with courage talking your talk and walking that walk.

God, Barb, I’m in a really rough place. And in that place,
nothing written in either set of scriptures is to avail.
The more I consider what is said in both sets, the more
disgusted I become. And disgust comes from the Latin
for ‘stomach.’ I literally cannot stomach one more moment of
‘God knows best.’
The reason why what happened to that 3 year old is so awful,
is that even if a child is very ill, often his mother is there, to
bring comfort. But this child was taken away in the night and
no mommy to comfort her and soothe her. What in the name
of God happened to that child?
This is a level of evil that is incomprehensible.

All that I was taught, at an age when I could not say
“No. This teaching is crazy,” asserts. Introjects, all.
Material taken in that I was forced to ‘stomach,’
as a child.

I haven’t been over on the spirituality board, because I’ve
been working this through, and had not an appropriate
reflection to offer.
The conclusion, that I am fast reaching, is that the
Judeo-Christian scriptures were man’s attempts to
explain* why* life was so hard, and sometimes bitterly unjust.

You wrote, a couple of months ago, that only profound
silence is possible, in the face of great evil and suffering.
I believe God exists. But Whoever He is, He cannot
possibly be conveyed in scriptures.

Accept His will, He knows what’s best, He is God/you are
creature. Well this is one creature who’s had it up to her
clavicle, with the God of Judeo-Christianity. All that I can do
is to say that I trust God - in Who He knows Himself to be.

Petionary prayer seems useless effort. What’s going to happen,
is going to happen. And when this becomes a matter of
“blame the victim,” [original sin] with a tidy theology to
justify all, I’m done.

And the odd thing is, I do not come to these
conclusions because of anything that’s happened to me.
I’m in God’s face over what He allows to happen to others.
How dare He? How dare He try to justify horrendous suffering?
Suffering on the part of innocents who can’t even reason yet?

I’m not saying any of this well. I defend God, as I berate Him.
Or I should say, I defend God - from the neat and tidy answers,
of Judeo-Chrisitanity. There are no neat and tidy answers.
God is Who He knows Himself to be.

Good to hear from you, Barb.

reen

 

[RebeccaJ]

God is Who He knows Himself to be.

I know that was not to me, but I will just add, in my atheist years, this is what I struggled with reasoning out…even in my atheism, I had defined God.

In your anger, you are defining God.

As I searched for truly, Who God IS, I was very careful. As soon as I found a belief system to define God, I was gone. Honestly, that was one of the first things that appealed to me in the Catholic world…God is not defined, but rather, reasoned to a point that we can know Him, by scripture and sacred tradition.

Outside of that, God cannot be defined, to do so, is to begin to create a false god, one that is made after one’s own image. Even an atheist has defined god, mainly as non-existent, but usually there are added attributes…mainly of the negative kind.

I don’t understand suffering. I spent a good amount of time trying to understand it, I obsessed over Christ’s suffering, asking endless questions of a Catholic friend, who finally had enough and told me to stop with the obsession over suffering.

It is a difficult subject, and when people give the answer, “because God has a plan for you!”, I don’t think they are defining God, just, I think suffering is too difficult a thing for people to deal with. It is easier to brush it aside as “God’s Will”.

But this is in fact the difficulty we face, as humans, we suffer and we also have an aversion to conflict. Suffering is conflict made large, real and unavoidable. Our natural response is to become apathetic.

This is the difficulty we face as Christians, at every turn, Christ was telling us, showing us, to pay attention to suffering, to DO something about it, not ignore it.

Where is God in all of this?

A friend mind once said that we, the baptized, are Christ in this world. It is our actions and our compassion and our DOING that brings the Love of God to those in pain.

It seems paltry, our good actions, compared to the evil of the world, it does.

This is one child, of millions, who have suffered at the hands of evil…and I see no answer, myself, no reason, no why. Most people ignore suffering as “that’s the way it is”, “glad it wasn’t me”, “it could happen to you too”, and/or start blaming…government, religion, God, parents, school systems, it goes on and on.

The world is broken. Original Sin has the most obvious of evidence. The suffering of the innocent is the most obvious evidence for the need of redemption, of mankind as a whole.

I don’t believe for a moment that the Love of God has left those who suffer. If I believed that, I wouldn’t be able to make it through the day, let alone my life. A world that suffers without God, is empty and broken, with no chance for hope.

 

[Sister_Amy]

My sister’s name is RebeccaJ!

Fancy that.

 

[DebChris]

Abba Macarius was asked, ‘How should one pray?’ The old man said, 'There is no need at all to make long discourses, it is enough to stretch out one’s hands and say, “Lord, as You will, and as You know, have mercy.” And if the conflict grows fiercer say, “Lord, help!” He knows very well what we need and He shows us His mercy.
Sayings of the Dessert Fathers by Benedicta Ward

Is it God who is narcisstic or is it we? Greek mythology is full of stories of gods manipulating humans who have no recourse but to cry “woe is me.” As Christians, this is not our view of God although at times we do ask, “God, how could you let this happen?” He is omnipotent afterall.
Years ago, Rabbi Kushner wrote Why Bad Things Happen to Good People. I think it is still on the bestseller list. My own acquaintance is merely through often quoted excerpts.
In a church in Germany, there stands a statue of Jesus with missing arms, a result of WWII bombings. Somebody put a sign on the statue with the words, “He has no hands but yours.” We could sit around waiting for God to change things or we could take a step and change things within our environment. That does not mean changing the world, just a small part of it, starting with our selves. This is where prayer comes in.
I have woken in the middle of the night, reached down to the cramp in my calf and cried, “Lord, help!” The cramp left. There are other difficulties in my life that God has not so instantaneously removed. Phrased another way, is it we who are waiting for God or God who is waiting for us? Is He waiting for us to ask for his help? What is it that I can do to change a situation?
Alcoholics pray the Sinrenity Prayer. “Lord, grant me the wisdom to accept those things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.”
Are we willing to take the necessary steps or do we sit back and expect God or somebody else to change the situation?
At a conference years ago, the discussion turned to discernment. Discernment was discribed as doing everything in our power and then sitting back and expecting a miracle. “Letting go and letting God” does not mean doing nothing. It means listening for that still small whisper that is God. Prayer is two way conversation. It is not simply us telling God what we want.

 

[reen12]

I’ve had enough of CAF for a while.

reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

God, Barb, I’m in a really rough place. And in that place,
nothing written in either set of scriptures is to avail.
The more I consider what is said in both sets, the more
disgusted I become. And disgust comes from the Latin
for ‘stomach.’ I literally cannot stomach one more moment of
‘God knows best.’
The reason why what happened to that 3 year old is so awful,
is that even if a child is very ill, often his mother is there, to
bring comfort. But this child was taken away in the night and
no mommy to comfort her and soothe her. What in the name
of God happened to that child?
This is a level of evil that is incomprehensible.

All that I was taught, at an age when I could not say
“No. This teaching is crazy,” asserts. Introjects, all.
Material taken in that I was forced to ‘stomach,’
as a child.

I haven’t been over on the spirituality board, because I’ve
been working this through, and had not an appropriate
reflection to offer.
The conclusion, that I am fast reaching, is that the
Judeo-Christian scriptures were man’s attempts to
explain* why* life was so hard, and sometimes bitterly unjust.

You wrote, a couple of months ago, that only profound
silence is possible, in the face of great evil and suffering.
I believe God exists. But Whoever He is, He cannot
possibly be conveyed in scriptures.

Accept His will, He knows what’s best, He is God/you are
creature. Well this is one creature who’s had it up to her
clavicle, with the God of Judeo-Christianity. All that I can do
is to say that I trust God - in Who He knows Himself to be.

Petionary prayer seems useless effort. What’s going to happen,
is going to happen. And when this becomes a matter of
“blame the victim,” [original sin] with a tidy theology to
justify all, I’m done.

And the odd thing is, I do not come to these
conclusions because of anything that’s happened to me.
I’m in God’s face over what He allows to happen to others.
How dare He? How dare He try to justify horrendous suffering?
Suffering on the part of innocents who can’t even reason yet?

I’m not saying any of this well. I defend God, as I berate Him.
Or I should say, I defend God - from the neat and tidy answers,
of Judeo-Chrisitanity. There are no neat and tidy answers.
God is Who He knows Himself to be.

Good to hear from you, Barb.

reen

Hi Reen…I am just acknowledging your Post above, although you are probably asleep as I write (7.45am here Tue 19August) I am out and about today but am making note to answer your Post when I am back online again…probably in roughly 11-12 or so hours from now.

You wrote, a couple of months ago, that only profound
silence is possible, in the face of great evil and suffering.
I believe God exists. But Whoever He is, He cannot
possibly be conveyed in scriptures.

…I still maintain that there is a place where only silence is possible not because one chooses it, but because there is no other place to go. I agree with you too re “cannot possibly conveyed in scriptures” because ultimately God is Complete Mystery. But I will try to explain my concepts better later today or tonight.
Blessings…and good to catch up with you again - Barb

 

[josephdaniel29]

Yes. There is a part of me that understands this.
Here’s the question that I can find no answer for.
Last summer, a 3 year old child was kidnapped in
Portugal. She is still missing. I damn near died inside,
when I heard of this. How in the name of God am I supposed
to continue to believe in the deity of Judeo-Christianity?
A God would permit this to happen to a child?

reen12

There is no good answer to your question. God has genuine love for mankind and genuine love always respects free will. Man in his sickened and fallen state does many things to reject God’s love and man’s own true calling. The very fact that you are upset is itself your true, God given, loving nature shining through.

Despite what the proponents of the prosperity Gospel will tell you God never promised that we would be free from suffering. The question is what do we do with that suffering. What if that girl’s tribulations lead to her conversion to God and her salvation? Would her suffering be worth it? What if that girls strength leads to the conversion of even one of her captors? What if the girl dies? Then surely God, who is all merciful and all loving will give rest to that girls soul. What if by dying that little girl was never given the chance to turn away from God and risk eternal separation from Him. Would it be worth it?

I certainly don’t have the answers to those questions There are many ways in which God operates that we do not know or understand. What we can do is pray and intercede for her and for her captors that their souls may be saved. In that way we become perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We can rest and be assured of God’s infinite mercy.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[DebChris]

The best remedy for those who ae frightened, lonely, or unhappy is to go outside somewhere they can be alone, alone with the sky, nature, and God. For then and only then can you feel that everything is as it should be and that God wants people to be happy amid nature’s beauty and simplicity. As long as this exists…there will be solace for every sorrow, whatever the circumstance…nature can bring comfort to all who suffer—Anne Frank

If I were a physician, and if I were only allowed to prescribe just one remedy for all the ills of the modern world, I would prescribe silence. For even if the Word of God were proclaimed in the modern word, how could one hear it with so much noise? Therefore, create silence—Soren Kierkegaard.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

PART ONE

---

God, Barb, I’m in a really rough place. And in that place,

nothing written in either set of scriptures is to avail.
The more I consider what is said in both sets, the more
***disgusted I become. And disgust comes from the Latin ***
for ‘stomach.’ I literally cannot stomach one more moment of
***‘God knows best.’ *****

Hi again Reen:thumbsup:
Yeah, when I read your OP, I felt you were in a truly really rough place indeed and suffering because of it. And this is one of the things that drew me to you from the start, your intellectual honesty and openhearted shared courageous honesty. As I said those years ago, you remind me of Edith Stein in some ways.
Forgive me please for the length which covers two Posts. Part one and part two due to wordcount. Oh dear it looks as if it could be three Posts. I am on such unsure ground since I think at times I cross over into philosophy - whatever indeed that is.

Reen, I have stumbled really over my response to you and I think because I am groping for words where words do not exist. I don’t know how widespread it may be but I am certainly absolutely confident others have the same experience as me - some things I know and I know what it is that I know, but I cannot explain it so the other can equally know. If that makes no sense to none, then I have been absolutely blest with being able to cry “SORRY ALL! I AM A BIPOLAR DISORDER-ER!” – and with a smile.

It is only when one can truly say to oneself “I do not understand, nor will ever probably understand ever” that we are close to possibly and perhaps who God Is – or at least out of ‘human orbit’ and into ‘God orbit’. He is “Who Am”. He simply is and beyond all our reasoning and understanding powers. God refuses to be logical, it could be said – simply because He cannot be grasped by our logic and human reason and understanding. We have to get beyond that (the place of the insane ). As long as reason is on our side in our concepts of God and as long as our understanding is on our side in our understandings of God, then our understanding and reasoning has not insighted God at all, but is moving in ‘human orbit’ only.

God is in the non understanding and the non reasonable and that is complete confusion to our intellect and complete confusion to all our concepts that we have developed about God.

But this does not address your valid question about this little 3 year old innocent who is under going at least potentially horrors unimaginable to us, simply because we are not that little 3 year old. She may perhaps have died a dreadful death. At this point – we do not know. Where is God in this if He is All Mercy and Compassion? My only answer is, Reen, that I do not know,but I know that my complete not knowing does not tell me God does not exist, it only tells me that what I know about God I have not really understood at all, nor in very real possibility can I, nor in very real possibility can anyone else. This event in Portugal simply fills my interior self with great sorrow and sadness – horror even. Not only for this child, but for the parents and family, friends. My Faith and my reason, my logic, cannot visit there simply because they are totally silenced and I am in a place that only horrified human emotion can visit.

---

The reason why what happened to that 3 year old is so awful,

---

is that even if a child is very ill, often his mother is there, to
bring comfort. But this child was taken away in the night and
no mommy to comfort her and soothe her. What in the name
***of God happened to that child? ***

***This is a level of evil that is incomprehensible. ***
I cannot understand such evil either, but I do know that it exists, there is an awful lot of incidences of such in our history and no reason to expect that it will cease in our future – except in hope that one day will see an end to these horrors – unimaginable horrors that man can inflict on man and/or child. Where is our Omnipotent God who can do all things, to whom all things are possible, in all this – where is His proclaimed Mercy and Understanding, His love of little children. Honestly, I do not know. It is at the point in life that we no longer understand God that we are letting go of our delusions and illusions and entering into Reality. For God is The Totally non understandable – The I am Who Am. Scripture tells us many things about God and are truthful I hold – but more than that He is more than all that – even it could be said, less than all that.

Cont. Part 2

 

[BarbaraTherese]

PART 2

“More” is a strange word really in this particular context, for I can equally say “less”. God is in fact more Merciful and less judgmental. As He is less Merciful and more Judgmental. He is in fact more and less Merciful, more and less Judgemental. ***

All that I was taught, at an age when I could not say
“No. This teaching is crazy,” asserts. Introjects, all.
Material taken in that I was forced to ‘stomach,’
as a child. ***
You have a remarkable intelligence Reen…………but even the most gifted of intelligences will never understand and fully explain God – it can only begin to do so when it confesses in quite often totally humbled humility and stunned logic stupefaction that it cannot understand nor explain. Three things exist to my mind in this thread.

• First the unimaginable sufferings of a 3 year old child.
• The second is that God, though capable of intervening, will in probability not intervene and yet we claim He is All Merciful and Loving………and if anyone cannot see the total contradiction in these two facts then I think that they are in denial.
• The third thing is that we have no logical nor reasonable explanation of why our All Powerful and Loving, Merciful God does not intervene.
  In the face of these three existing facts, I think that the human mind, reason and understanding, logic is silenced and must be silent, simply because there is no explanation we can grasp that makes all fit together nicely.
  There then arises three options.
• I can retreat into atheism and refuse to believe that God exists.
• Two - I can hold that He is a cruel and uncaring God.
• Three - I can confess I do not understand God at all.

And, I suppose, I could get really ridiculous and claim to understand and put my understanding in theological terms that does strike the strictly logical human mind as totally illogical in view of the thread subject – the cruel sufferings of a little innocent child. But then God is not logical…………He is beyond that. It could even be said God is illogical. Does this mean that the person getting ridiculous and being illogical but theologically correct perhaps is closer to the reality of God than any? Good question – and question it remains.***

I haven’t been over on the spirituality board, because I’ve
been working this through, and had not an appropriate
reflection to offer.
The conclusion, that I am fast reaching, is that the
Judeo-Christian scriptures were man’s attempts to
explain* why**** life was so hard, and sometimes bitterly unjust.

---

On the other hand of course, it can equally be said, that atheism is man’s attempt to make sense of life that is often hard and bitterly unjust……………i.e. God, under these circumstances, simply cannot exist. It is not so much belief or unbelief that offends, as it is holding to God’s Loving Existence and then trying stupidly to explain it and justify it…………God is totally beyond explanation in every way. He simply is. He is the I Am Who Am.****
***Cont…Part 3

---

 

[BarbaraTherese]

You wrote, a couple of months ago, that only profound
silence is possible, in the face of great evil and suffering.
I believe God exists. But Whoever He is, He cannot
***possibly be conveyed in scriptures. ***

I think you are right, Reen. Scripture can tell us some things about God and perhaps an aweful lot about God. But if we think that Scripture summarizes God full stop for us to understand fully and totally full stop. Then I think we are wrong – for God is I Am Who Am …………He simply is and the human mind cannot even remotely grasp the whole of God. It is impossible. God is Merciful and less and more Merciful. God is our Judge and less and more our Judge.
God, The Totally Other……….Totally other from all that is human……….could only tell us really about Himself by becoming human, and so He did become human and in contemplating Jesus, we come to insight God as He would be if He was human – and behold Here is God human in Jesus. The Incarnation was over and beyond anything else, any miracle at all, the “God who can do all things”. And The Incarnation tells us far more about God than that He can indeed do all things. The Incarnation as an event pondered tells our human logic things about God…….and the consequent life, death and resurrection of Jesus can tell our human logic even more about this God of ours.

Accept His will, He knows what’s best, He is God/you are
creature. Well this is one creature who’s had it up to her
clavicle, with the God of Judeo-Christianity. All that I can do
is to say that I trust God - in Who He knows Himself to be.

“All I can do is to say that I trust God – in Who He knows Himself to be”.

That is an Act of Faith which steps beyond human reasoning and understanding, to trust in The I Am Who Am.

Petionary prayer seems useless effort. What’s going to happen,
is going to happen. And when this becomes a matter of
"blame the victim," [original sin] with a tidy theology to
***justify all, I’m done. ***

Of course, what is going to happen is going to happen and God has seen and known what from all eternity. Perhaps some good that has or will occur God saw from all eternity as a response to some good act that I was to do or my heartfelt prayer and pleading to Him. Some prayer I was to pray. Past, present and future are one to God. And perhaps God saw from all eternity that some evil that was to occur was the result of some evil that I was to do. Theology and us, I don’t think as yet and perhaps never has grasped the good that can come from prayer and goodness and good acts………and the evil and evils that exist in this world as a result of my/our evil act or acts – our sin. For my sin does not affect only me ………. it reverberates into our world and perhaps with a pebble in the pool type of consequence. This is a lesson from the story of Adam and Eve and how their freely chosen sin entered the world to affect and effect all of us to the end of time. The freely chosen sin of Adam and Eve had a pebble in the pool effect, and so do ours. So the very evil that appalls and shocks me, I may well have played a part in. Something I need remember before I deliberately choose sin. I need to think of my sin as cause - and effect I cannot know this side of eternity and when I do sight what my sin has caused in eternity, I may be totally alarmed and shocked and well I should be. We humans just do not insight fully the nature of sin.

---

***And the odd thing is, I do not come to these ***

**
conclusions because of anything that’s happened to me.
I’m in God’s face over what He allows to happen to others.
***How dare He? How dare He try to justify horrendous suffering? ***
Suffering on the part of innocents who can’t even reason yet?

I’m not saying any of this well. I defend God, as I berate Him.
Or I should say, I defend God - from the neat and tidy answers,
of Judeo-Chrisitanity. There are no neat and tidy answers.

---

God is Who He knows Himself to be.

***/QUOTE]
***God is Who He knows Himself to be. ***

……….Alleluia Amen!..you got it Reen!..no real compliment methinks, Reen, remember that I’m crazy…*

 

[DebChris]

Barbara,
Have you read Cloud of Unknowing? It seemed like that was where you were going as you started your post(s). We can only enter that Cloud in the silence of listening to God.

Even the most gifted of intelligences can never understand or fully explain God…

As I once discussed with a Nazarene minister friend of mine, our very intelligence often makes it difficult to accept God with the simplicity of a child.
God cannot be boxed between the pages of a book, no matter how sacred and inspired the writing.

God is Who He knows Himself to be.

……….Alleluia Amen!..you got it Reen!..

I agree. He is the Great I Am.

---

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Barbara,
Have you read Cloud of Unknowing? It seemed like that was where you were going as you started your post(s). We can only enter that Cloud in the silence of listening to God.

As I once discussed with a Nazarene minister friend of mine, our very intelligence often makes it difficult to accept God with the simplicity of a child.
God cannot be boxed between the pages of a book, no matter how sacred and inspired the writing.

I agree. He is the Great I Am.

---

Hi DebChris…Yes, I read the Cloud of Unknowing first in mylate teens I think it must have been (now 62yrs young ) what has stayed with me from that great spiritual classic, I think probably summarizes the whole text “Seek The God of Consolations and not the consolations of God.” To be honest as I typed my Posts I wasn’t sure where I was going, nor where I would end up and I typed with “fingers crossed” - in other words in hope it would all come out in the wash ok and I remain even yet unsure that it did. I merely hope so.
I know that Reeny has a powerful intellect and I know of her genuine and honest sincerity and integrity, compassion, and I really felt for her. I rather feel if everyone reading think me a little crazy, then Reen of all will understand what I am trying to say. God is The Complete Mystery and Unknown. In fact the less we claim to know about God the more probably closer we are approaching to the Reality of God.
What totally astounds and stuns my mind (and now and then it does touch sanity) is that the only way the human mind could grasp God, was indeed if God was to take on human form and reveal Himself as He would be if He were human…and behold He has done so! But what an awesome and stunning matter and event for God to bring into Being.
There are times however when I am confused about the “how and why of God” and events in my life and our world…until I enter that Great Silence again - and then I have no idea how I could ever ponder the how and why of God in the first place. I Am Who Am.

As I once discussed with a Nazarene minister friend of mine, our very intelligence often makes it difficult to accept God with the simplicity of a child.

…Yes, intelligence, human intelligence can get in the way of the simple acceptance of I Am Who Am in a very childlike way. It rather reminds me of often I may see something in nature and say for example “What a beautiful tree” and the person with me says “Yes, it is a weeping willow” - but have they really seen that particular tree as it is? The latter person has knowledge…while the former sees what is actually there and does not need knowledge. Truth of the matter is that “willow tree” is simply a name humanity has given to a certain group - no such thing in reality as a “willow tree” - there is only a specific sort of beauty humans call “trees”. Well something like all that. What on earth IS reality! Reality simply is. Truth be known I am out of my depth and into what for me can really only be “keep silence” or potentially make a jolly idiot of myself.

But thank you for greeting my lengthy posts with your kindness…I am too afraid to re read them myself!!! I hope that Reen will catch on as it seemed to me reading her posts that perhaps she was thinking as she wrote herself and came to her final conclusion which was spot on and worked herself out.

Blessings and regards…Barb