Why pray?

[reen12]

Thank you reen, i appreciate that

…Let’s see. Is there a chagrined smiley here that i can use? Wait, maybe this will do For here i was thinking i might be helping to guide you to a fuller understanding of Christian teachings on suffering (by pointing you to writings by CS Lewis and JPII, etc) but instead it turns out you probably could have written the book on it yourself

Not to worry. Someone, half a generation ahead of me,
told me - when I was age 30, to never make assumptions
about another’s knowledge base, and life accomplishments.
That information has saved me more chagrined moments
than I can count.

One of my favorites, in this regard, was my assessment of
this Judaic prayer book, in terms of the commentaries that appeared in same.
I noted the author’s name, and thought:
“I bought this used edition of this work, printed decades ago.”
“I wish that this man was better known.”

Imagine my chagrin, when I found out that this man had been -
the Chief Rabbi, of the British Empire.

That’s like reading Shakespeare, and wondering why he isn’t more well-known. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

I smile, when someone offers a Zen tale.
In early July, I had given my own rendition of a Zen tale,
complete with an illustration that I had made, to accompany same.
I began reading Eastern works, at age 32.

quote: reen12, from another thread

Reflection: Detachment

There is an ancedote, well known to those who have
an interest in Zen. It has, as well, I think, application
to the Christian life, because it has to do with detachment,
and the interior discipline required to achieve same.

Two monks, an elder and a disciple, were
walking along a road. The rains had been heavy,
and their path was a sea of mud.
Looking ahead, they saw a young woman, distressed,
looking at the road that she wished to cross. The elder monk
increased his step, and was soon standing beside her.
“May I help?” he asked, bowing deeply.
The woman nodded, gratefully, and the elder monk
picked her up and carried her across the road.

Later, when the two monks had continued some way,
the younger monk appeared agitated. When he was
asked what was troubling him, the younger monk blurted out:
“Master, it is written and it is held, that monks are to
have nothing to do with women. Yet you carried that
woman across the road.”

The elder monk replied:
"I left her back there. Are you still carrying her?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/monksfinished.jpg

This is one of my favorite ancedotes, for it teaches so much
in a brief form.

My favorite human being, from the past, is the Hasidic Reb, Zusia.

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Zusia had such a simple heart, as did Francis.

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Best,

reen

 

[reen12]

I am not a full-fledged Catholic. I feel the Holy Spirit has guided me to the Church, to the saints and the popes, to their examples and writings, in order to experience and to grow from the great spiritual depth and breadth of the Church. There are so many wonderful things there but at the same time i am not able to fully commit. I believe that much of what the Church teaches is true, at least in a general sense, but i am wobbly regarding some of the specifics and cannot honestly profess to believe in everything that you have to believe in to be a Catholic.

Thus it seems i may always have to admire and love and learn from the Catholic faith at a distance.

There is great beauty in the Catholic faith. The Church, in our day, will be seen to have had one of her more glorious moments, as she defends the infinite value of human life, from conception to natural death. Holy Mother Church will stand against every reality that acknowledges not the infinite value of each human being.
God granted, in our day, a great saint, Mother Teresa,
to remind the world of the sacral nature of human life.

To look on her face is to look upon the face of God.

stanford.edu/group/ivfaculty/Essays/mtki0.jpg

reen

 

[Bridge]

Hi reen, liked the story and your drawings.

Detachment has actually been a large part of my readings and my spiritual practice over the last year. And yes, that story is very true, attachments definitely have a way of being there even when we don’t realize it.

The web of the world is full of invisible threads.

 

[steve_b]

quote: steveb

It is Christianity’s doctrine of original sin that forms the
basis for a theology of grace, sacrament, justification,
righteousness, atonement, and, ultimately, salvation.

Judaism waits for a messiah…true?.. Why?

messiahs save…correct? What do Jews need saving FROM?
reen:

the God of Israel already grants forgiveness, mercy,
love, and eternal life.

Jewish scriptures end with Malachi.

How did God grant forgiveness from Genesis to Malachi?
reen:

A savior, rescuing man from a non-existent reality [original sin],
while offering a salvation already granted, by the God of Israel,
is redundant in nature.

What salvation are you speaking of that is already granted?
reen:

What am I to do, in relation to all of this?
Follow the natural law, acknowledge the one God,
and work to leave the world a better place than I found it.

Is that all Jewdaism requires from Genesis to Malachi?
reen:

Grace, sacrament, justification, righteousness, atonement -
are the terms by which salvation is framed, in Christian theology.

Man complicates, not God.

reen

As you know, all the terms you refer to, are not what man invented. They are revealed truths from God
reen:

Note: As to the criticality, and the hinge nature - of the doctrine of original sin -
the CCC addresses this. [from the Vatican website}

389

The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News
that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered
to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Here is an easy compilation of ALL the references to original sin in the Catechism, incuding #389 you mention. You may not believe in original sin but you have to accept the results of original sin that got passed on to all humanity. That was suffering and death, which was not known by Adam or Eve before their fall. That’s from Genesis.

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=original+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[reen12]

Judaism waits for a messiah…true?.. Why?

messiahs save…correct? What do Jews need saving FROM?

Hello, steveb.

In terms of your questions, Judaism 101 has a table of contents, found here:

jewfaq.org/toc.htm

Moshiach [messiah] means ‘anointed.’

e.g. Samuel anoints David as king.]

“Then Samuel, with the horn of oil in hand, anointed him in the midst of his brothers;
and from that day on, the spirit of the Lord rushed upon David.”
1 Samuel 16.

The Judaic ‘moshiach’ does not mean savior - in the Christian sense.
Judaism waits not for a messiah to save man from sin,
original or personal sin. The God of Israel already grants forgiveness.
This is seen in the tesuvah - the turning back to God,
and in the Day of Atonement, each year.

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow… Isaiah 1:18

Original sin was a belief of Saul of Tarsus. [St. Paul]

Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death,
and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned…
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all,
so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. {Romans 5:12 5:18]

This is a Christian belief. Judaism does not hold this belief.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Yet as I said, in an earlier post:

quote: reen12

…the Judeo-Christian scriptures at least convey some idea of Who God is. In both Judaism and Catholicism, the add-ers, the over-explainers, the definers, the sure and the certain, took over - and before Moses was off the mountain, a 2nd time, the festooning began, eventuating in 613 mitzvoth.
By the time the Scholastics finished, the God of Sinai, in the person of Jesus, sounded more like the God of philosophy and calculus, not the triune I AM.

quote: steveb

As you know, all the terms you refer to, are not what man invented. They are revealed truths from God

Christians hold that revelation was ongoing.

2+ billion human beings, in our own time, proclaim that
Jesus of Nazareth was/is the God/man, savior, and that God is triune.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Christianity teaches that man inherits the sin of Adam,
and that baptism removes this ontological sin - a sin in
man’s very being. It is also held that man needed saving -
from both original sin and personal sin. That man is ‘wounded’ in nature.

Sacraments are said to be outward signs, instituted by Christ, to give grace. Jesus of Nazareth counseled:
“Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

The dominant teaching, in Judaism, is that man is born in innocence.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

During his/her lifetime, each will sin.

Yet HaShem ‘the Name’] forgives, if man turns back to Him teshuvah.]

While there is a leaning toward good, there is also a leaning toward evil - yetzer hatov, yetzer hara.
[More akin to the teaching of concupisence -
not an ontological sin - ‘inherited’ from Adam.]

Concupisence:

newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

Man sins because he/she is not a perfect being.
One accepts this fact, turning back to God when one sins.
The world to come awaits man, when life ends.
Judaism embraces life, and the gifts of God.
It is ‘this world,’ oriented - not oriented toward heaven.
[the world come - *Olam haba.]

It took a great deal of time, before I understood this
critical difference.
In Christianity, it seems that a great deal is made of grace,
fonts of grace, categorizng sin, categorizng grace,
‘made’ righteous, ‘imputed’ righteouness, works vs.sola fides,
and so on.

God does not expect His human creatures to be perfect.

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reen12

 

[reen12]

Jewish scriptures end with Malachi.

How did God grant forgiveness from Genesis to Malachi?..

What salvation are you speaking of that is already granted?..

Is that all Jewdaism requires from Genesis to Malachi?

In further answer to your questions -

Christianity teaches that man inherits the sin of Adam,
and that baptism removes this ontological sin - a sin in
man’s very being. It is also held that man needed saving -
[salvation] from both original sin and personal sin. That man is ‘wounded’ in nature.

Sacraments are said to be outward signs, instituted by Christ, to give grace.
Jesus of Nazareth counseled:
“Be ye perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

The dominant teaching, in Judaism, is that man is born in innocence.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/…ginal_Sin.html

During his/her lifetime, each will sin.

Yet HaShem ‘the Name’] forgives, if man turns back to Him teshuvah.]

While there is a leaning toward good, there is also a leaning toward evil -
yetzer hatov, yetzer hara.
[More akin to the teaching of concupisence -
not an ontological sin - ‘inherited’ from Adam.]

Concupisence:

newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm

Man sins because he/she is not a perfect being.
One accepts this fact, turning back to God when one sins.
The world to come awaits man, when life ends.
Judaism embraces life, and the gifts of God.
It is ‘this world,’ oriented - not oriented toward heaven.
[the world come - *Olam haba.]

It took a great deal of time, before I understood this
critical difference.
In Christianity, it seems that a great deal is made of grace,
fonts of grace, categorizng sin, categorizng grace,
‘made’ righteous, ‘imputed’ righteouness, works vs.sola fides,
and so on.

God does not expect His human creatures to be perfect.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reen12

 

[steve_b]

Hello, steveb.

In terms of your questions, Judaism 101 has a table of contents, found here:

jewfaq.org/toc.htm

I’m familiar with the site, I’ve used it many times in the past
reen:

Moshiach [messiah] means ‘anointed.’

e.g. Samuel anoints David as king.]

“Then Samuel, with the horn of oil in hand, anointed him in the midst of his brothers;
and from that day on, the spirit of the Lord rushed upon David.”
1 Samuel 16.

The Judaic *‘moshiach’ *does not mean savior - in the Christian sense.

Then where did this anointing stop? Why are you still waiting for an anointed moshiach?

Jews are very particular and precise on geneologies. You’re familiar with the geneology of Jesus, and Mary and Joseph…correct?

Jesus is also called son of David. Jews thought the line of David died out.
reen:

Judaism waits not for a messiah to save man from sin,
original or personal sin. The God of Israel already grants forgiveness.

This is seen in the* tesuvah -* the turning back to God,
and in the Day of Atonement, each year.

Didn’t the day of atonement require sacrifice in the temple by the high priest?

Since the distruction of the temple, and the priesthood, how does that requirement continue for the Jew?
reen:

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord,
"Though your sins are as scarlet, They will be as white as snow… Isaiah 1:18

Original sin was a belief of Saul of Tarsus. [St. Paul]

And Saul was a Jew. A Pharisee. He was Rabbi Gamaliel’s top student. And you know who rabbi Gamaliel was…right?
reen:

Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death,
and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned…
In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all,
so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. {Romans 5:12 5:18]

This is a Christian belief. Judaism does not hold this belief.

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html

Christianity believes the first man was made sinless. But he blew it. Therefore Adam couldn’t pass on to further generations what he had lost. And we saw God prescribe the consequences in Genesis. They would know suffering and death, something they had no otion of before the first (original) sin.
reen:

Christians hold that revelation was ongoing.

2+ billion human beings, in our own time, proclaim that
Jesus of Nazareth was/is the God/man, savior, and that God is triune.

reen12

Question:

What did God mean when He said let US make http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/h...ifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/hs362.gif man in our image ? [Gen 1:26]

 

[steve_b]

In further answer to your questions -

Christianity teaches that man inherits the sin of Adam,

One of the effects of original sin is suffering and death, something Adam and Eve knew nothing about until the original sin. That’s well documented in Genesis.

Another effect is, the affinity to sin is too easy. When there was no sin originally, now sin abounds. Something changed in human nature. You can’t deny this.
reen:

The dominant teaching, in Judaism, is that man is born in innocence.

The first man WAS innocent. That’s true. But he blew it for himself and all others.
reen:

During his/her lifetime, each will sin.

Yet HaShem ‘the Name’] forgives, if man turns back to Him teshuvah.]

While there is a leaning toward good, there is also a leaning toward evil - **
yetzer hatov, yetzer hara.
[More akin to the teaching of concupisence -
not an ontological sin - ‘inherited’ from Adam.]

If man is born in ininnocence, why should he lean towards evil? A disorder in his nature perhaps?
reen:

man sins because he/she is not a perfect being.

Yet In the beginning man was perfect. What chnged?
reen:

One accepts this fact, turning back to God when one sins.

The world to come awaits man, when life ends.
Judaism embraces life, and the gifts of God.
It is ‘this world,’ oriented - not oriented toward heaven.
[the world come - *Olam haba.]

It took a great deal of time, before I understood this
critical difference.
In Christianity, it seems that a great deal is made of grace,
fonts of grace, categorizng sin, categorizng grace,
‘made’ righteous, ‘imputed’ righteouness, works vs.sola fides,
and so on.

reen,

What you’ve done is absolutized the OT and rejected the NT.
reen:

God does not expect His human creatures to be perfect.

Is heaven going to be an extension of the way it is here?

 

[reen12]

I’m familiar with the site, I’ve used it many times in the past

Yes, it’s a really helpful website, I’ve found.

quote: steve b

Then where did this anointing stop? Why are you still waiting for an anointed moshiach?

That’s just the point, steve b. I’m not awaiting anyone.

BTW, it’s not ‘anointed moshiach.’ That’s redundant.
messiah = the ‘anointed.’ To say messiah is to convey ‘anointed.’
That’s what the word messiah means.
As Christ = Christus = ‘the anointed one’

I do not seek conversion to Judaism. The members of
Judaism fulfill their task, as God’s chosen people.
Judaism does not seek converts, yet will accept same.

Christians think in terms of a savior - and man needing
salvation from something. [original sin, personal sin.]
Judiac view, on salvation, found here:

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

and here:

faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-38.html

Chrisitianity is based on the belief that the Judaic messiah
has come into the world as God/man, ‘savior.’

messiah = the anointed

messiah/moshiach does not = ‘savior’

That is a Christian belief.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Christianity believes the first man was made sinless. But he blew it. Therefore Adam couldn’t pass on to further generations what he had lost. And we saw God prescribe the consequences in Genesis. They would know suffering and death, something they had no otion of before the first (original) sin.

Thank you, steve b. I am familiar with Christian doctrine.

You might consider consulting Rashi’s commentary on
Genesis, as to the ‘us.’ [The imperial ‘we’ is still in use.]

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/8165/jewish/Chapter-1.htm

reen

 

[steve_b]

That’s just the point, steve b. I’m not awaiting anyone.

I guess I should have asked upfront, what brand of judaism do you follow?
reen:

Christians think in terms of a savior - and man needing
salvation from something. [original sin, personal sin.]
Judiac view, on salvation, found here:

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-38.html

Do these sites speak for all Jews? What makes THEM authoritative?
reen:

Chrisitianity is based on the belief that the Judaic messiah
has come into the world as God/man, ‘savior.’

messiah = the anointed

That is a Christian belief.

reen12

As you know, since Jesus and his disciples and the Church were 100% Jewish in the beginning, this could be called the Jewish belief also…correct?

 

[reen12]

reen,

What you’ve done is absolutized the OT and rejected the NT.

‘absolutizing the OT’ = the faith of Israel

quote: steve b

Is heaven going to be an extension of the way it is here?

I no longer think in such categories, steve b.

Love God, follow the natural law, as best I can,
and celebrate His creation. Not thinking that,
somehow, this world is ‘inferior’ to the next.
What would God think of this?
“I gave them so much beauty to see and to enjoy.”

God really is Father. Safe here, and loved by Him,
forgiven when I sin, always remembered by Him -
why would I not trust Him to create a beautiful eternity?

It’s a sea-change

Judaism is ‘this world’ oriented.

We are to leave the world a better place than we found it.
We are to be grateful to God for the wonders of His creation,
that we may delight in.

 

[reen12]

I guess I should have asked upfront, what brand of judaism do you follow?

I need not follow Judaism, steve b, because I do not at all
feel called to convert to same. Nor need I.

quote: steve b

Do these sites speak for all Jews? What makes THEM authoritative?

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Orthodox.html

Judaism leaves many things undefined.

quote: steve b

I guess I should have asked upfront, what brand of judaism do you follow?

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did Jesus, Joseph and Mary follow?

Joseph spent his entire life, in Judaism, for he died before
Jesus did. Each morning, Joseph and Jesus would have
donned the phylacteries, and said the morning prayers.
Mary would have prepared the Sabbath meal, each Friday,
before the Sabbath began. What authority instructed them to
perform these rituals?

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did they follow, do you think?

---

Christianity is redundant.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

The God of Israel had already granted mercy, forgiveness, salvation and love.
There is room in His heart for those not of His chosen people.

All religions end up ‘festooning.’ Hanging this or that definition
on that which was passed on, adding to the required.
It seems to be a great need of mankind, to festoon.
To comment. To interpret. To add.

As I said, earlier:

quote: reen12

I think that the Judeo-Christian scriptures at least convey
some idea of Who God is. In both Judaism and Catholicism,
the add-ers, the over-explainers, the definers, the sure and the certain, took over -
and before Moses was off the mountain, a 2nd time, the festooning began,
eventuating in 613 mitzvoth.
By the time the Scholastics finished, the God of Sinai, in the person of Jesus,
sounded more like the God of philosophy and calculus, not the triune I AM.

I no more believe that it is the will of God that 613 mitzvoth
need be practiced, yet that is none of my business.
Nor do I hold that Jesus of Nazareth was God/Son of God,
savior. Any issues of ‘authority’ - coming from Christian sources,
are subject to debate, among Christians.

All I need do is to accept that God loves me, fulfill the demands
of the natural law, as best I can, try to leave the world a better place than I found it -
and He will make room for me, in the world to come. He may
even be happy to see me, and rejoice that I am there.
He really is a Father.

reen

 

[steve_b]

I need not follow Judaism, steve b, because I do not at all
feel called to convert to same. Nor need I.

Then why use their arguments as if they are yours too?
reen:

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did Jesus, Joseph and Mary follow?

Joseph spent his entire life, in Judaism, for he died before
Jesus did. Each morning, Joseph and Jesus would have
donned the phylacteries, and said the morning prayers.
Mary would have prepared the Sabbath meal, each Friday,
before the Sabbath began. What authority instructed them to
perform these rituals?

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did they follow, do you think?

The purpose of my question was in reference to Sadducees, vs Pharisees, vs Orthodox, vs conservative, vs Reformed, vs Hasidic, etc etc.

What version are you referencing?
reen:

Christianity is redundant.

beingjewish.com/toshuv/salvation.html

Why do you use this argument? Re: your opening comment, you don’t need to follow, OR convert, to Judaism. So why use ANY of their arguments since you don’t follow them?
reen:

The God of Israel had already granted mercy, forgiveness, salvation and love.

If that was the case there would be no need for a messiah OR the NT. As you know, that wasn’t the plan.
reen:

All religions end up ‘festooning.’ Hanging this or that definition
on that which was passed on, adding to the required.
It seems to be a great need of mankind, to festoon.
To comment. To interpret. To add.

As I said, earlier:

quote: reen12

I no more believe that it is the will of God that 613 mitzvoth
need be practiced, yet that is none of my business.
Nor do I hold that Jesus of Nazareth was God/Son of God,
savior. Any issues of ‘authority’ - coming from Christian sources,
are subject to debate, among Christians.

Reen, it seems you’re following a create-as-you-go belief system. Do you think God hasn’t seen that stuff before with His creatures? Do you think it worked?
reen:

All I need do is to accept that God loves me, fulfill the demands
of the natural law, as best I can, try to leave the world a better place than I found it -
and He will make room for me, in the world to come.

Did God give you personally a special revelation that this is all you need?
reen:

He may even be happy to see me, and rejoice that I am there.
He really is a Father.

Do Jews consider God as Father?

 

[reen12]

Did God give you personally a special revelation that this is all you need?

What I need will be supplied me by God, steve b.
That is personal, and I am special to Him, as are
all other human beings.

How do I know? Who says so? You can’t just believe something like this without the approval of religious authorities. Why believe this, and not that? Who gives you the right to choose?
The Church is the Body of Christ. He the vine, we the branches.

The scriptures say
The catechism defines
The Magisterium says

I feel like going for a walk with Winnie the Pooh,
before I succumb to serious seriousness.

Thank God that He provides a place of rest and restoration.

“You’re not allowed in here. You don’t believe everything.”
“Hush, now. Come in, little lamb.”
“Thank You, God. It is nice here.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reen

 

[reen12]

To return to a question that I posed, without reply from you:

quote: steve b

I guess I should have asked upfront, what brand of judaism do you follow?

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did Mary, Jesus, and Joseph follow?

quote: reen12

Joseph spent his entire life, in Judaism, for he died before
Jesus did. Each morning, Joseph and Jesus would have
donned the phylacteries, and said the morning prayers.
Mary would have prepared the Sabbath meal, each Friday,
before the Sabbath began. What authority instructed them to
perform these rituals?

What ‘brand’ of Judaism did they follow, do you think?

reen12

 

[reen12]

In terms of faith - any person who accepts not the assertions [faith-based beliefs]
of a given faith, is ‘outside’ that group.
What becomes the occassional exterior manifestation,
of this ‘outsideness?’ -

anathama, heresy, apostasy - and gradations thereof.

A member of a given faith may express sorrow…
that one is not ‘part’ of a given group of believers.
One’s salvation may be said to be at stake.

It is assumed that no reality is to be ceded - to
the beleifs of one who is not part of a ‘group’ of believers.

Who do you think you are, holding personal beliefs…?
.
If it turns out that one is a member of another religious group…good heavens.
Then an additonal hardy exchange may begin:

Where does it say in the NT…
Jesus said…
That’s not what that word means…
How dare you state [whatever]…
It is clear that…

Back in the loop: http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

quote: reen12

How do I know? Who says so? You can’t just believe something like this
without the approval of religious authorities. Why believe this, and not that?
Who gives you the right to choose?
The Church is the Body of Christ. He the vine, we the branches.

reen12

 

[reen12]

When one states that part of that believed - by a given group,
seems reasonable or likely, mystification may express:
If you do not believe all that is believed by X, why would you identify
with that faith?

"Identify,’ here = ‘all or nothing.’

The assumption is made that it is to be - ‘all or nothing.’
An additional assumption may express
:
Any belief, concerning God and His relationship with
human beings, has not the ‘seal of approval’ of deity…

• if ‘merely’ personal beliefs are expressed.

No truth value is granted.

The assumption here is that theological reality cannot be known outside of a particular group. :

Who do you think you are, holding beliefs of your own?
By whose authority…?
Don’t you know that…fill in the blank.]

The assumption, implied here, is that one needs [requires?] the
sanction of a given religous group.
Any belief held, outside of a given group, is dismissed out of hand.

Yet here’s where an interesting phenomenon occurs:
If one is a part of a faith group - and one states the beliefs of that group,
now we’re back in a loop:

My religious group has the truth…the whole truth…and nothing but the truth:
Where does it say that?..
You have not the authority…
Only my group is competent to assign truth-value
Didn’t Jesus say?..
You are not competent to render an opinion,
for you are making an assertion based on just you.

…back in the loop

quote: reen12

How do I know? Who says so? You can’t just believe something like this
without the approval of religious authorities. Why believe this, and not that?
Who gives you the right to choose?
The Church is the Body of Christ. He the vine, we the branches.

reen12

 

[steve_b]

What I need will be supplied me by God,

True
reen:

I am special to Him, as are
all other human beings.

True
reen:

How do I know? Who says so? You can’t just believe something like this without the approval of religious authorities. Why believe this, and not that? Who gives you the right to choose?
The Church is the Body of Christ. He the vine, we the branches.

The scriptures say
The catechism defines
The Magisterium says

Reen, You’ve asked some good questions. And you use these as authorities that are authoritative. If I may I’ll condense

• How do you know to believe this and not that
• who approves religious authorities like the Church, scripture, the Catechism, the magisterium, so that what THEY teach one can believe with confidence
  I would follow up with a question

What If these authorities are taken cafeteria style, picking through what one likes and ditching what’s disagreeable? Can one still have confidence in what they believe?