Why Respectfully toward Protestants and Rude to Mean toward Mormons

[StLawrenceFan]

Meanwhile, here’s a nifty site with a truckload of mormon commentary.

The entire site is found here…

Here’s one excerpt:

**"You could find the answer to “all your problems” by taking a spoonful of some really nasty syrup. It’s a little trickier with Mormonism: first you have to accept a lot of dubious mythology, and then you have to give your time, your talents, and at least ten percent of your income to a large corporation, no questions asked. But what do you get in return?

I suppose some people get a feeling of belonging or a sense of being part of something bigger than themselves. But the promise is pretty empty. A friend of mine once described the LDS church as the only corporation he knew of whose main product was of absolutely no benefit to its customers." **

 

[Zundrah]

Meanwhile, here’s a nifty site with a truckload of mormon commentary.

The entire site is found here…

Here’s one excerpt:

**"You could find the answer to “all your problems” by taking a spoonful of some really nasty syrup. It’s a little trickier with Mormonism: first you have to accept a lot of dubious mythology, and then you have to give your time, your talents, and at least ten percent of your income to a large corporation, no questions asked. But what do you get in return?

I suppose some people get a feeling of belonging or a sense of being part of something bigger than themselves. But the promise is pretty empty. A friend of mine once described the LDS church as the only corporation he knew of whose main product was of absolutely no benefit to its customers." **

…well actually they do gain something; they get to become a God when they die!

 

[hosemonkey]

…well actually they do

gain something; they get to become a God when they die!

But you hafta jump through lotsa hoops first and then maaaaaabe you have a shot. BUT only if you are male and ONLY if you remember to call your wife’s secret name, so she can be called from the grave and then she must be forever pregnant so that you can populate the planet with little “spirit babies” so that he can have somebody to worship him.
Can you imagiine morning sickness and stretch marks for eternity, girls? What about all the other wives? You have to have all the babies while your “god” husband sits around “ruling.” How can mormon women buy a deal like that?

 

[Zundrah]

But you hafta jump through lotsa hoops first and then maaaaaabe you have a shot. BUT only if you are male and ONLY if you remember to call your wife’s secret name, so she can be called from the grave and then she must be forever pregnant so that you can populate the planet with little “spirit babies” so that he can have somebody to worship him.
Can you imagiine morning sickness and stretch marks for eternity, girls? What about all the other wives? You have to have all the babies while your “god” husband sits around “ruling.” How can mormon women buy a deal like that?

…he he he…

How is anyone not absolutely horrified by all of this!

 

[LutheranDK]

I understand Catholicism’s focus on smoothing over its views with Protestants makes sense to me in light of the past.

Yet, when my church’s missionaries come knocking on the door, as suppose I understand why Catholics are not interested – being rude to them is unnecessary.

Those of you who know Mormons your focus in getting us to leave our church and going through RCIA or in my case, just come back to the church, after I go to confession, is useless.

Why do you try? Those who have weak knowledge about my church are going to come to you or whatever church they will or no church at all. Trying to convince me about Catholicism are a waste of time.

Speaking for myself, I do not care if its a book, tract, the forums here, etc will never convince me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is anything other than what I know it is.

Respect my church regardless of my differences regarding Catholicism that will never go away and there are things that Catholicism does is a good thing, for example is your work in support of the poor.

Why treat non-RC Christians differently from Mormons?

Well, my guess (and I’m not RC, so it’ll have to remain a guess) is, that the tendency is the same as I have myself:
I react better to other Christians wanting to convince me that they’re right, than to people who CLAIM to be Christians, but in fact are not, wanting to convince me…

 

[maryjk]

I understand Catholicism’s focus on smoothing over its views with Protestants makes sense to me in light of the past.

Yet, when my church’s missionaries come knocking on the door, as suppose I understand why Catholics are not interested – being rude to them is unnecessary.

Right I should stop whatever I am doing, invited them in, offer them food and drinks and talk the afternoon away with them.

How about, I treat them like anyone else that shows up at my door uninvited and unannounced? Now, don’t get me wrong, I try to be nice about it, but if I am in the middle of something, then I am in the middle of something. Science experiments don’t wait, neither does dinner coming out of the oven.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yet, when my church’s missionaries come knocking on the door, as suppose I understand why Catholics are not interested – being rude to them is unnecessary.

I do my very best not to discriminate… I am rude and mean to mormons AND JWs.

 

[dianaiad]

But you hafta jump through lotsa hoops first and then maaaaaabe you have a shot. BUT only if you are male and ONLY if you remember to call your wife’s secret name, so she can be called from the grave and then she must be forever pregnant so that you can populate the planet with little “spirit babies” so that he can have somebody to worship him.
Can you imagiine morning sickness and stretch marks for eternity, girls? What about all the other wives? You have to have all the babies while your “god” husband sits around “ruling.” How can mormon women buy a deal like that?

Love the mockery.

Think it through, though. Even if you ARE correct…the babies we will be "having’ are spirit children. We will be very physical beings, having been resurrected and all. So how do you figure that pregnancy would be involved?

I mean, God created all of us, right? Where are HIS stretch marks?

…but that’s OK, I understand that the folks who come up with this silliness are more interested in mockery than in thinking things through logically.

 

[dianaiad]

Why treat non-RC Christians differently from Mormons?

Well, my guess (and I’m not RC, so it’ll have to remain a guess) is, that the tendency is the same as I have myself:
I react better to other Christians wanting to convince me that they’re right, than to people who CLAIM to be Christians, but in fact are not, wanting to convince me…

Y’know, I’ve been saying for a very long time that the reason that Catholics and others deny Mormons the right to call themselves Christian is because 'he whom one would persecute, one must first make ‘other.’" Why? Because of course one cannot be ‘mean’ to fellow Christians. That’s just not right. So…if you dislike someone and want to treat them badly, first…kick them out of the club.

How nice of you to provide such a beautiful example of exactly what I have been talking about.

 

[dzheremi]

Y’know, I’ve been saying for a very long time that the reason that Catholics and others deny Mormons the right to call themselves Christian

I can’t speak to any other church’s belief, but I don’t think that the Catholic Church denies the Mormons the right to call themselves anything they want to. That’s not within the power of the Church. Just the same, we cannot recognize your theology as actually being Christian, so to us you are not. It has nothing to do with taking about your “rights” or anything so dramatic.

So…if you dislike someone and want to treat them badly, first…kick them out of the club.

Christianity is not, in fact, a social club.

How nice of you to provide such a beautiful example of exactly what I have been talking about.

The persecution complex and whining of some Mormon members here is really off-putting. Get over yourselves, please.

 

[hosemonkey]

Y’know, I’ve been saying for a very long time that the reason that Catholics and others deny Mormons the right to call themselves Christian is because 'he whom one would persecute, one must first make ‘other.’" Why? Because of course one cannot be ‘mean’ to fellow Christians. That’s just not right.

So…if you dislike someone and want to treat them badly, first…kick them out of the club.

mormons were never in the “club” to start with. For years you were loath even to claim to be Christians. Now, in order to somehow make the wierdness more attractive to the rubes, you have this deep need to be regarded as just another mainstream protestant sect. A few years ago, you started to really emphasise the name of Jesus Christ in your logo and in your advertising. Why the renewed emphasis? Maybe its’ the same reason that Scientology started calling themselves a “church”, to lull the rubes.

 

[hosemonkey]

…but that’s OK, I understand that the folks who come up with this silliness are more interested in mockery than in thinking things through logically.

mormonism has been thought through very logically…and has been found to be…ILLOGICAL.

 

[dianaiad]

mormons were never in the “club” to start with. For years you were loath even to claim to be Christians.

Oh, no. We do NOT wish to be regarded as 'just another mainstream Protestant sect." We are neither Protestant nor mainstream, and have no wish to be considered either.

We are, however, Christian.

A few years ago, you started to really emphasise the name of Jesus Christ in your logo and in your advertising. Why the renewed emphasis? Maybe its’ the same reason that Scientology started calling themselves a “church”, to lull the rubes.

“a few years ago…” you mean, like…since 1834 or somewhere around then?

Are you NUTS?
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[dianaiad]

mormonism has been thought through very logically…and has been found to be…ILLOGICAL.

Oddly enough, I find it to be extremely logical.

But then, I don’t come from a tradition that finds logic in the treasured traditions of Catholic beliefs and ceremonies. From outside, some of the things you believe are just plain strange.

But that’s OK. Religious beliefs, seen from outside the religion, will seem strange to any observer. That’s where faith comes in, and understanding of symbolism, and personal relationships with God.

Y’see, all the questions that atheists and agnostics ask of religious folk, that Catholicism and others can’t answer? You know, the ‘problem of evil,’ for instance…why God allows horrific things to happen to people…why children die, why there is such pain…Mormonism answers that very logically from within the framework of our beliefs. Catholicism, as far as I can see, doesn’t. It skips over it, but never quite answers it.

“Where did God come from?”
Mormonism answers it a bit more completely than Catholicism does.

“Why did God create us?”
Does Catholicism answer that one at all?

“What is our purpose?”
Same thing.

What ABOUT science and religion?
No problem with Mormonism as far as I’ve seen…Catholicism has been fighting with it for a very long time. It may have finally given up the battle, but it was a long, hard fought war.

Why aren’t there prophets and revelation any more, when there always used to be?
Mainstream Chrsitianity…because, well, there isn’t.
Mormonism…actually, there is.

See?
I find plenty of logic in Mormonism.

You find it elsewhere. I don’t see the logic in yours, either—but please notice that I have refrained from behaving towards your beliefs as you behave towards mine.

 

[hosemonkey]

John Taylor, the third President of the Mormon Church, said Christianity is of the Devil.
“Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its [Christianity] pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 167).

“…the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, …But with the Bible it was not and is not so…it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.”

• Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13

Oh, no. We do NOT wish to be regarded as 'just another mainstream Protestant sect." We are neither Protestant nor mainstream, and have no wish to be considered either.

We are, however, Christian.

It is interesting that you wish to a part of the “Great Whore” that Brother McConkie speaks of.

“a few years ago…” you mean, like…since 1834 or somewhere around then?

In 1995 the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) issued national guidelines stating that the Mormons were not “within the historic apostolic tradition of the Christian Church.” A more sharply edged report by the Presbyterians’ Utah subunit concluded that the Latter-day Saints “must be regarded as heretical.” The Mormons have responded to such challenges by downplaying their differences with the mainstream. In 1982 an additional subtitle appeared on the covers of all editions of the Book of Mormon: “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” In 1995 the words Jesus Christ on the official letterhead of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were enlarged until they were three times the size of the rest of the text. In Salt Lake City’s Temple Square, the guides’ patter, once full of proud references to Smith, is almost entirely Christological. “We talk about Christ a lot more than we used to,” says magazine editor Peck, whose journal’s outspokenness has earned him an edgy relationship with the church. "We want to show the converts we are Christians."

This is a perfect example of how a company may change the appearance or alter the fundamental characteristics of a product to be appealing to a larger group. This can also be described as product development, which is the offering of improved products to satisfy needs of present markets.
(The marketing of Mormonism) Time Magazine

Are you NUTS?

“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”

• Prophet George Q. Cannon, as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142

No, mormons are nuts.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Y’see, all the questions that atheists and agnostics ask of religious folk, that Catholicism and others can’t answer? You know, the ‘problem of evil,’ for instance…why God allows horrific things to happen to people…why children die, why there is such pain…Mormonism answers that very logically from within the framework of our beliefs. Catholicism, as far as I can see, doesn’t. It skips over it, but never quite answers it.

“Where did God come from?”
Mormonism answers it a bit more completely than Catholicism does.

“Why did God create us?”
Does Catholicism answer that one at all?

“What is our purpose?”
Same thing.

What ABOUT science and religion?
No problem with Mormonism as far as I’ve seen…Catholicism has been fighting with it for a very long time. It may have finally given up the battle, but it was a long, hard fought war.

Why aren’t there prophets and revelation any more, when there always used to be?
Mainstream Chrsitianity…because, well, there isn’t.
Mormonism…actually, there is.

See?
I find plenty of logic in Mormonism.

You find it elsewhere. I don’t see the logic in yours, either—but please notice that I have refrained from behaving towards your beliefs as you behave towards mine.

Dianaiad, I do agree with your premise, that things always seem “weird” from the outside, whether we’re talking about Catholicism, Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. I would just like to very briefly address some of the above.

Catholicism answers all of the questions that you have asked, though of course such answers may not be “sufficient” for others, depending on their own worldviews. For example, the question of “Where did God come from?” perhaps begins with the premise that God has to come from somewhere. For Catholics, God did not come from anywhere, and has eternally existed. There were no other gods before/above Him, He did not have a Father, nothing existed anywhere save for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The angels were then created, and then the creation of the universe.

The Baltimore Catechism is a book that is in question/answer format that answers many of these questions quite simply, in contrast to the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which goes into a lot of depth and draws on many resources, Biblical, theological, etc. to explain our beliefs and expand on what’s found in the Baltimore Catechism. But the BC does address very simply some of these questions, such as:

“3. Why did God make us?
God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven.
Eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has prepared for those who love him. (I Corinthians 2:9)”

The current catechism goes into much more detail than this, but the basic view is that God made us to come to share in his own blessed life. This of course implies many other derivative beliefs, such as theosis (deification), or partaking in the divine nature, which we do believe.

The “problem of evil” is also addressed by Catholicism. First and foremost is our firm belief in free will. God created us with free will to choose whatever we want. The angels (who we believe are a different order of beings than humans) were also created with free will. Evil does not come from God, but comes from our free choice to choose “the right” (yes, I know CTR is a popular Mormon phrase ), or not. As God has free will, so too did He give us free will. However, we don’t believe that God simply created us with free will and left us alone. God is ever guiding us towards Him, towards eternal life with Him. However, within that, we also need to participate, and cooperate with Him for this plan to be carried out. This concept is called “Divine Providence”. Bad things may happen because of this free will, however God can always teach us through this horrible event. Suffering is an interesting concept in Catholicism, and we firmly believe in “taking up our cross” and being guided through suffering to God, as Jesus Christ did.

As far as prophets and revelation, this is a very common misconception I see, and perhaps various Protestant groups believe this. However, Catholics firmly believe that there are prophets (and prophetesses, just like in the Bible). Many of our canonized saints were also prophets. Revelation continues, and we are each able to receive private revelation (what Mormons term “personal revelation”). We do not believe that there is any more revelation to be had that is pertinent to salvation, since we believe that such matters were already revealed once and for all. While we may believe differently than Mormons on this, we do believe that there are prophets and prophetesses, revelation is available to all from God, the angels and saints of Heaven can reveal messages for us through them as well, and Heaven is open. Please read this post of mine, which copies the post of a fellow Catholic over on MADB on this very subject:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5788908&postcount=4

This is just briefly (I think…) my view on such matters. Catholicism of course goes into much more detail on all of “the big questions”, however, yes, we do answer all of them, and none are skipped over. Our answers may differ from other religions, however they are answered. And of course no answer will satisfy many if not most atheists and agnostics.

 

[Stephen168]

Catholicism answers all of the questions that you have asked, though of course such answers may not be “sufficient” for others, depending on their own worldviews. For example, the question of “Where did God come from?” perhaps begins with the premise that God has to come from somewhere. For Catholics, God did not come from anywhere, and has eternally existed. There were no other gods before/above Him, He did not have a Father, nothing existed anywhere save for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The angels were then created, and then the creation of the universe.

The Catholic answer is the logical answer. Everything has a cause so there must be a first cause (God). To suggest God came ‘from’ some place/person/thing brings the question: where did that place/person/thing come from? And where did that person/place/thing come from? And so on into infinity. I would suggest that Mormonism isn’t even logical within its own framework. History and science are also against Mormonism in many of its claims. The truth of history, science, and reason is why there are ex-Mormons.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I agree that we shouldn’t be rude. I like having conversations with Mormon missionaries, myself.

However, there is a basic reason why Catholics and Protestants treat each other differently than either of us treats Mormons. Catholics and Protestants, for all our differences, believe in the Trinity. We believe in a single eternal God existing in three Persons, and we believe that there is an infinite, qualitative difference of nature between God and humanity. Many of us believe in deification by grace, but we do not believe that humans are beings of the same basic kind as God. We also do not believe in public revelation after the writing of the last book of the NT canon and/or the death of the original Apostles. These are basic differences between us and you. We recognize each other as belonging to the same Faith, even though we interpret that Faith differently (well, Catholics officially recognize us in this way–unfortunately, some ultra-conservative Protestants don’t return the favor, and you can find overzealous Catholics on these forums who speak equally harshly of Protestants). We cannot recognize you in this way. Most of us believe that you should be regarded as a substantially different religion. (The concrete expression of this is that we do not generally recognize the validity of your baptisms.) That doesn’t mean that we should be rude to you. It doesn’t mean that we don’t recognize that there are many good and true things in what you believe. But you have departed from historic Christianity in a way that makes the differences between Catholics and Protestants trivial by comparison.

Edwin

Is there any point in being irenic, and stressing what is shared, when all that some can see are the differences ? Why don’t RCs & Protestants decide instead to reject each other, formally, instead of pretending we love each other ? How people act to one another is a far better indicator of what they think of each other’s religion than any number of churchy statements. To see what the realities are, ignore those, and look at this forum, or others like it.​

Christiani Christiano Lupi

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A wonderful Christmas present. Help the LDS recover!
Why do mormons think Jesus was born in Jerusalem, btw?
Can they get anything right?
Jees Louise…

The perfect gift.

http://www.salamandersociety.com/exmormon/former_mormon.jpg

You and HoseMonkey seem like very angry bitter people. Are you a former Mormon? I just wonder where all this seething hatred comes from?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Woah.

I am also in public education. For us to go for Republicans is NOT like “Jews for Hitler.” It’s more like the French Resistance, Miep Gies, and Oskar Schindler.

LOL…Well I didn’t mean to get too WWII on ya there. But what I mean is this…the Democrats are extremely flawed and their social policy is downright horrible, their abortion views disgusting and unconscionable. But when it comes to labor issues, public education, healthcare, etc. I think they’ve done a lot more to address things than the GOP. I remember Bob Dole’s convention speech about “taking on the teachers’ union!!” and I hear on conservative talk radio day in day out how bad public education teachers are, how we make too much money (laugh!!) and how we don’t have a “real job.” I hear them tout vouchers (an idiotic idea to be sure) and in California the GOP hates our pension fund and health benefits. The GOP, if they had their way, would make sure teachers had no union, no benefits, no tenure, and they’d probably make half the pay.

Labor unions like CTA (part of NEA) here in California are FULL of flaws, full of waste, and they have their own corruption, but I’m very glad I have a union that will go to bat for me against these NUTTY administrators! I’m also happy when they fight to get my salary up and keep our superintendent, who IS Hitler, from raping our health benefits any more than he already has. My union has fought for me against admin. when they harrassed me before, and I like my tenure when a psycho parent without a clue attacks…The Democrats are a screwed-up motley band and I loath much about them but I will say that they are more teacher-friendly and helpful than the GOP any day of the week. I know saying ANYTHING nice about Democrats is a capital offense on CAF so, I’ll now duck and prepare for the grenades to come…