Why say "Sola Fide"?

[fhansen]

Love preceding justification is certainly not a requirement for justification. However, faith that does not work through love is not a saving faith.

Catholicism would say that love cannot precede justification, at least of the kind and on the scale that God desires for us. Justification itself would consist of love, however, as the most important aspect of its righteousness rather than righteousness being solely imputed and consisting of forgiveness otherwise.

 

[ltwin]

So if we “have responsibilities to work out our salvation”, apparently we must do more than believe

Faith is not simply believing propositional truth–at least not any faith worth having. It’s not simply believing that Christ is. Faith is trusting and embracing Christ with your whole mind, heart and will.

It’s the difference between knowing that the boat exists and having the courage to get in the boat and trusting that it will get you across the water without sinking. Christ is our ark of safety from the flood–if we have the faith to surrender ourselves to his will for us and to go where he carries us. None of us will be saved just by knowing that the ark exists. We have to get on board.

or in any case justification at the beginning isn’t necessarily sufficient to realize salvation.

We have to persevere.

 

[MichaelP3]

Extremely bad analogy and just adds to the point that we are talking past each other!

 

[ltwin]

Extremely bad analogy and just adds to the point that we are talking past each other!

It was cringe worthy.

 

[Darryl_B]

I couldn’t agree more. Dung covered by snow is an extremely bad analogy, and cringe worthy.

 

[JonNC]

I couldn’t agree more. Dung covered by snow is an extremely bad analogy, and cringe worthy.

I agree. Further, it has nothing to do with sola fide

 

[dopeyMS]

Faith without works is dead being alone. Reformation Fail. Martin Luther tried to remove the book of James from the bible because he couldn’t wrap his little mind around the fact that works of love are inseparable from faith in Christ. No our works do not save us or merit us a place in heaven but they are the fruit of genuine faith, hope and love.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

So what is the answer to this problem?

In the Catholic Church, we try to properly Catechize folks so this is not a issue. We see Confirmation as a completion of Baptism.

Is something like that occurring now on the Evangelical side?

 

[JonNC]

Faith without works is dead being alone. Reformation Fail.

Evidence you do not understand sola fide.

Martin Luther tried to remove the book of James from the bible

False. In fact, he included it in every version of his translation. If you have proof, present it.

because he couldn’t wrap his little mind around the fact that works of love are inseparable from faith in Christ.

More evidence you do not understand what Luther taught. Two Luther quotes that refute your accusation:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

No our works do not save us or merit us a place in heaven but they are the fruit of genuine faith, hope and love.

Now you sound exactly like Luther.

because he couldn’t wrap his little mind

I can’t think of a single Catholic theologian who would describe Luther this way. It is uncharitable and reveals an ignorance of the man and current Catholic thought about him.

 

[lanman87]

So what is the answer to this problem?

The problem we have been facing in Evangelical churches is we are confusing an emotional reaction to the gospel, where someone hears the gospel, has an emotional reaction and makes a “profession of faith” as a conversion. But then when the emotional high is gone the person goes back to living the same life without the Gospel having made any real difference in their life. There was no change true change in heart. Our records are filled with people who come to an evangelical service, make a profession of faith, and then disappear with in a few months. Or sometimes those folks become cultural Christians. They come long enough to learn the lingo and know when to stand and sit during the service and maybe even sing in the choir, but they don’t really have a heart for God. They do as little as possible for them to be considered “a good churchgoing person” but their lives haven’t been impacted by the gospel of Christ.

What many churches are starting to do is not count that person as “converted” until they undergo a teaching class on the basics of Christianity and spend time with a mentor who guides a new believer into what it really means to follow Christ. Baptism is delayed until the person gets a little deeper in the faith and demonstrates more than an emotional or simply intellectual understanding of “faith”.

That is what we do at the church I attend and as a result, the number of people “falling away” after baptism is much lower than at the church I used to attend. I think it is because our emphasis is discipleship and missions instead of conversions. The result is we have been growing deeper in doctrine and services as well as growing larger numerically. Ironically, we have also been growing numerically at a higher rate than any church I’ve ever attended and have as many or more “conversions”, even without an alter call.

I also think this is why Calvinism is making a strong comeback in Evangelical circles. And why evangelicals are become Catholics at a higher rate than in the past. We are looking for something deeper with more meaning than emotionalism and alter calls. But we are also looking for something with traditional Christian moral values. It is no fluke that the PCA is one of the fasting growing denominations in American.

 

[dopeyMS]

I was raised Lutheran and choked on Protestant theology most of my life so I know Luther very well and have read many of his writings. Luther had a genuine conversion experience but we are not justified by faith alone as Peter, John, James and even Paul understood. Paul never said we are justified by faith alone, what he did say is that good works are the fruit of faith and tradition is very much a part of the gospel -

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. 2Th 2:15,16

Good works and Holy tradition are part of the gospel that’s why I am an Orthodox christian today. The Orthodox faith is a ‘happy place’ for protestants who would never go crawling back to Rome.

 

[JonNC]

was raised Lutheran and choked on Protestant theology most of my life so I know Luther very well and have read many of his writings.

Based on what you wrote, it seems you entirely misunderstood. Or, you were the victim of bad catechesis. Either way, what you presented is not Lutheran teaching.

 

[dopeyMS]

We are not justified by faith alone! We are justified by a faith which works through love - Gal. 5:6. Once again Paul refutes Luther! Not the Catholics, not the pope, not the Orthodox but Paul.

 

[JonNC]

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. 2Th 2:15,16

Good works and Holy tradition are part of the gospel that’s why I am an Orthodox christian today. The Orthodox faith is a ‘happy place’ for protestants who would never go crawling back to Rome.

I completely respect your move to Orthodox. It is the path Pelikan took, and I admire him greatly.

 

[JonNC]

We are not justified by faith alone! We are justified by a faith which works through love - Gal. 5:6. Once again Paul refutes Luther! Not the Catholics, not the pope, not the Orthodox but Paul.

You didn’t even read the quote I posted, which is Luther’s Commentary on Galatians 5:6.

 

[dopeyMS]

Oh I read it - I really, really did.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t respect Protestants because they are intellectually dishonest and can’t even stand on the bible which they hold up so high and mighty.

Which Protestant? Protestant a general grouping not based on doctrine or practice.
To claim they are dishonest assumes the are intentionally deceitful. I don’t think one can make such a broad claim.

 

[JonNC]

Oh I read it - I really, really did.

Then you know your observation

We are not justified by faith alone! We are justified by a faith which works through love - Gal. 5:6.

Matches exactly with Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

 

[JonNC]

Modern Protestantism is a grab bag fallacious beliefs with deplorable examples like Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, SDA, Dispensational who are militant in spreading their heresy to every corner of the earth.

Lots of falsehoods here. Protestants are Trinitarian Christians.
Maybe those of us who are Sacramental Christians should work together more to combat “militant despensationalists”.

Now I would never include Lutherans, Anglicans or Reformed in that list but even you have to admit that all those groups are a giant stain and embarrassment to any one with an ounce of faith.

I wholeheartedly disagree with them, but I wouldn’t use such language to describe them.

We live in the modern world and the digital age so you can’t hide these things like you could 20 years ago. The Catholic and Orthodox faiths don’t change and teach the same gospel they did 2000 years ago.

Just not the same Gospel. Right?

Protestants are the ones that need to change and they can start by kicking ‘Sola Fide’ out the window.

Well, since you proved you don’t understand sola fide, I suggest you research who teaches what regarding sola fide.

 

[chrisjb]

So are Lutheran’s and Catholics really believing the same thing then? Just that protestants in general deemphasize the need for works whereas Catholics understandably do emphasize it?