Why say "Sola Fide"?

[JonNC]

So are Lutheran’s and Catholics really believing the same thing then? Just that protestants in general deemphasize the need for works whereas Catholics understandably do emphasize it?

I think your description of emphasis when it comes to works lacks clarity. I do not think Catholicism overemphasizes works or Lutheran deemphasizes works. Both emphasize the importance of works in the life of a Christian. They do have differing views regarding works and justification.
But to answer your question, my own view is that it is not soteriology that is the basis of division any longer. It is ecclesiology.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I’m former Protestant (like many here) And I don’t think they are intellectually dishonest. I just think they are scared to death of tradition because of Jesus’ harsh words to the Jews – so they use Sola Scriptura as their safety net. Most have never really, fully examined their beliefs in comparison with the ancient Churches. And for example, have no idea where the scriptures actually came from. They will just say God gave it to us, as if bibles slid down rainbows at Pentecost. But that’s because they have not taken the time to objectively seek out answers and would rather sit in their ‘Jesus and me’ comfort zone.

As a disclaimer, this obviously does not apply to the good Protestant Christians who post here. I’m talking your average, run of the mill Protestant in this day and age.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks for sharing that. Good points all around!

I have to say, even with RCIA and CCD and all the tools we have in the Catholic Faith, nothing seems to impact a new Christian the way a weekend retreat does. A weekend long dose of the Holy Spirit leaves a lifelong impact, imo.

 

[MichaelP3]

I was raised Lutheran and choked on Protestant theology most of my life so I know Luther very well and have read many of his writings.

I normally go “uuuuumphhh” when I read a post like this. In actual fact I take special note of whoever takes a certain stance and then claim they are coming from that specific background.

When you state what you stated, all on here go uuùuuuumphhhh .

Church after Church will just claim you never understood "what we are preaching " in the first place.

So take note! Stating you are a “moved” member inside Christianity does not help ANY argument. ACTUALLY it just poses more and more questions!

 

[ltwin]

‘uuuuuuumphhhh’ is code for unbelief, doubt and a lack of charity.

As are your contributions to this thread.

 

[dopeyMS]

My contributions which cannot be refuted by those who stand on ‘sola scriptura’. There is not one verse in the whole bible that says we a ‘justified by faith alone’. There are verses that say point blank we are ‘not justified by faith alone’…

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:17-26

The entire Reformation was built on the ideology of one man who was patently wrong and now after 500 years the cold, hard truth is starting to sink in. Luther was a heretic like many who came before and many who have come after.

 

[margaret42]

And that’s why it makes sense that the Catholic Church is “the one true church”.

 

[JonNC]

My contributions which cannot be refuted by those who stand on ‘sola scriptura’. There is not one verse in the whole bible that says we a ‘justified by faith alone’. There are verses that say point blank we are ‘not justified by faith alone’…

No our works do not save us or merit us a place in heaven but they are the fruit of genuine faith, hope and love.

Which is it?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:17-26

Amen.

The entire Reformation was built on the ideology of one man who was patently wrong and now after 500 years the cold, hard truth is starting to sink in. Luther was a heretic like many who came before and many who have come after.

False. The Reformation has many different individuals from different movements. All of them had one thing in common; the Catholic Church in that place and time was corrupt and at times taught things not even Catholic.

My contributions which cannot be refuted by those who stand on ‘sola scriptura’.

I just did. Instead, try arguing from an Orthodox perspective. Misrepresenting what others teach isn’t working.

 

[Darryl_B]

JonNC, honestly are you lonely?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC, honestly are you lonely?

Darryl_B, honestly, are you Elvis?

:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[Cathoholic]

Itwin . . .

The basis of our justification is faith alone in Christ. Our own merit cannot justify us.

Itwin. You and I have discussed this.

I am disappointed that you imply the Catholic position is “our own merit”.

I have told you repeatedly with quotes of Scriptures and Church documents (Trent) that we do not teach merit ON OUR OWN.

Your position on justification has a built-in (wrong) pre-supposition that a persons justification is reducible down to a moment ALONE.

Our justification is a lifelong process and necessitates WORKING in Christ.

 

[Dougbro1]

Which is it?

I think he’s saying all three, not just one.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Which is it?

I think he’s saying all three, not just one.

I can’t argue with that. My dispute is with how some misrepresent sola fide.

 

[fhansen]

One problem is that there isn’t necessarily a united position on it to begin with, and the nature of the doctrine tends to make uncertain the place of the law or man’s obligation to be righteous, apart from having faith, itself. Here’s a set of questions from the OP of a thread on a non-Catholic forum:

"i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i’ll hear these two assertions:

1. That we don’t need to keep the commandments because we’ve been saved from them, and,
2. we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we’ve “been given” the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i’m not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists."

I guess it boils down to our definition of faith-is it intellectual assent, or is it trust in, reliance on God and the work/revelation of Christ?

And either way, does that faith necessarily guarantee that we will live obediently, with the justice or righteousness that God expects of us, so long as we remain faithful?

And if faith does guarantee this righteousness, what would the reason or “mechanism” be for that? Would a change in us be necessary at justification consisting of real righteousness infused, and the Trinity dwelling within, or would a strictly imputed righteousness suffice, with ourselves unchanged, still sinners in truth while forgiven?

Would any change be in status only, or is real change caused by God in us, change that can develop and blossom to the extent that we continue to cooperate?

 

[JonNC]

i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i’ll hear these two assertions:

1. That we don’t need to keep the commandments because we’ve been saved from them, and,

You won’t hear that from me. It is contrary to Christ’s commands.

we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we’ve “been given” the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

Again, not from me. We’ve been given grace, and the free will to reject it. Without grace, we cannot choose righteousness.

I guess it boils down to our definition of faith-is it intellectual assent, or is it trust in, reliance on God and the work/revelation of Christ?

Mere belief is intellectual assent. Faith is more. It is as you have here said.

And either way, does that faith necessarily guarantee that we will live obediently, with the justice or righteousness that God expects of us, so long as we remain faithful?

It depends on what you mean by guarantee. We continue to have free will to reject grace, even after baptism, and justification.

 

[JonNC]

And if faith does guarantee this righteousness, what would the reason or “mechanism” be for that? Would a change in us be necessary at justification consisting of real righteousness infused, and the Trinity dwelling within, or would a strictly imputed righteousness suffice, with ourselves unchanged, still sinners in truth while forgiven?

There is this misunderstanding that when it is said that righteousness is imputed that this means there is no change in us.

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. [11]](http://bookofconcord.org/sd-goodworks.php#para11) Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. [12]](http://bookofconcord.org/sd-goodworks.php#para12) [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.
-Luther.

 

[dopeyMS]

"i never get a straight answer about this issue. Even from the same person i’ll hear these two assertions:

1. That we don’t need to keep the commandments because we’ve been saved from them, and,
2. we need to keep the commandments now that we call ourselves Christian because we’ve “been given” the ability to choose between sin and righteousness.

i hear both ping-ponging back and forth every time i listen to Bible teachers, and i’m not talking about cultists or outright works-salvationists."

‘The commandments’ is a very broad sword that has been used to butcher any coherent presentation of the gospel for 2000 years.

Do I have to keep the commandments of Moses, that were for the Jews under the old covenant or do I have to keep the commandments of Christ, that were for Christians under the new covenant?

The majority of Christians to this day still think the Old Testament was written to them and have never fully transitioned into the New Testament where righteousness is automatic when we put all of our faith and trust in Christ not our tired old ‘do this’ and ‘don’t do that’ and somehow it will make me righteous.

 

[Cathoholic]

JonNC . . . .

My dispute is with how some misrepresent sola fide.

Fair point JonNC. (I am assuming you are talking about Catholics here.)

And since I have discussed the justification issue with you, I am more careful of how I phrase my criticisms of sola fide.

(I do not hold YOUR view in contempt obviously from our past discussions.)

But not all Protestants believe what you believe (some for example DO assert a mere intellectual assent. Or state that good works automatically necessarily flow from faith. Or one moment of faith is yields an OSAS result.)

My dispute is with how some consistently misrepresent the Catholic position accusing us of “working” our way to Heaven and ignoring the teachings that our justification is a pure gift. Then after we are justified we must work UNITED to Christ (not on our own).

There is a big difference between that and the Pelagianism we are accused of.

 

[Darryl_B]

I was going to suggest a pet animal makes a better friend than a pet peeve.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC . . . .

My dispute is with how some misrepresent sola fide.

There’s absolutely nothing here for me to dispute. I think there are times when Protestants of other communions speak about Catholic teaching that is either misunderstanding or misrepresentation.