Why should abortion be rare?

[sanctamaria17]

Except, in many countries with restrictions against abortion and the availability of healthcare, there ARE lower abortion rates (and rate is not dependent on the amount of people).

No, there’s not a penny in REDUCTION, but there are more people and poverty is becoming a greater problem. Don’t believe me? Look at the economic situation of this country. Minimum wage is no longer enough to survive off of.

What is the reason most women cite for having an abortion?

LACK OF SUPPORT!

It’s also a cultural issue. A woman who is pregnant is branded as a “skank”, a “breeder”, and thought to be “unproductive” in the work force (yes, women DO get fired for pregnancy and it’s harder to find a job when in an employer’s eyes, you’ll probably quit in a few months anyway).

All of it has to change.

And you won’t get it if you alienate pro-choicers to the pro-life view completely.

 

[estesbob]

Except, in many countries with restrictions against abortion and the availability of healthcare, there ARE lower abortion rates (and rate is not dependent on the amount of people).

No, there’s not a penny in REDUCTION, but there are more people and poverty is becoming a greater problem. Don’t believe me? Look at the economic situation of this country. Minimum wage is no longer enough to survive off of.

What is the reason most women cite for having an abortion?

LACK OF SUPPORT!

It’s also a cultural issue. A woman who is pregnant is branded as a “skank”, a “breeder”, and thought to be “unproductive” in the work force (yes, women DO get fired for pregnancy and it’s harder to find a job when in an employer’s eyes, you’ll probably quit in a few months anyway).

All of it has to change.

And you won’t get it if you alienate pro-choicers to the pro-life view completely.

There simply is no excuse, rationalization, justifcation for he slaughter of 1.2 milliom children a year. If telling the truth alienates people then so be it.

BTW-at least at High Schools the opposite of the above is true. A student who has an abortion is a brave woman practicing her consitutional right to an abortion, A student who places her child for adoption is a slut who shirked her responsibility to her child by abandoning them to strangers.

Such is the culture of death in this country. Hope that doesnt alientate anyone who supports killing our children.

 

[sanctamaria17]

But until you make it clear that we’re not condemning people, they won’t change!!! END OF STORY! That’s WHY they do not support pro-life!

Obviously, there are different things at play. The pro-choice women I know WOULD birth their babies and either do adoption or parent themselves. How do I know this? They were convinced BY DOCTORS (who turned out to be wrong) that they were themselves pregnant. They made it clear that they would NOT have an abortion. This is at the college level, the age when 20% of all procured abortions occur.

 

[estesbob]

But until you make it clear that we’re not condemning people, they won’t change!!! END OF STORY! That’s WHY they do not support pro-life!

Obviously, there are different things at play. The pro-choice women I know WOULD birth their babies and either do adoption or parent themselves. How do I know this? They were convinced BY DOCTORS (who turned out to be wrong) that they were themselves pregnant. They made it clear that they would NOT have an abortion. This is at the college level, the age when 20% of all procured abortions occur.

So the pro-abortion women you know(proabaly white middle class women ) would not kill their child but support the right of othe women(probably in their mind poor black women) to kill their child. And you find something admirable in that?!

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Here’s an issue the pro-choicers never talk about:

FORCED ABORTIONS!

Why isn’t it illegal for an abortionist to perform abortions on women who say they don’t want one? A friend of mine on myspace told me her parents forced her to abort her first 2 children. When she told the abortionist she didn’t want to abort, he sedated her and did the abortions anyway while she was knocked out.

 

[sanctamaria17]

So the pro-abortion women you know(proabaly white middle class women ) would not kill their child but support the right of othe women(probably in their mind poor black women) to kill their child. And you find something admirable in that?!

Not all of them are white, first of all. AND THEY DON"T SEE IT AS KILLING!!! THAT’S THE ISSUE! They just think that in their situation, they could do it. Did I say anything about admirable? I’m just saying, they’re not ONLY for abortion, nor do they think a woman is skanky for pregnancy. Also, most of them don’t support it except in rape (still pro-choice in my eyes), which though wrong, is understandable!

And there are poor white women too. Just look at the majority of my family!

 

[estesbob]

Here’s an issue the pro-choicers never talk about:

FORCED ABORTIONS!

Why isn’t it illegal for an abortionist to perform abortions on women who say they don’t want one? A friend of mine on myspace told me her parents forced her to abort her first 2 children. When she told the abortionist she didn’t want to abort, he sedated her and did the abortions anyway while she was knocked out.

The overwehlming number of women I counseled who were considering an abortion were under extreme pressure for their parent/boyfirend/spouse to do so.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

The overwehlming number of women I counseled who were considering an abortion were under extreme pressure for their parent/boyfirend/spouse to do so.

Idaho passed a law earlier this year outlawing forced abortion.

Guess who protested the loudest when this law was passed…

…the so-called “Pro-Choice” groups!

These people are clearly more interested in protecting abortionists and their profits.

 

[estesbob]

Idaho passed a law earlier this year outlawing forced abortion.

Guess who protested the loudest when this law was passed…

…the so-called “Pro-Choice” groups!

These people are clearly more interested in protecting abortionists and their profits.

It is a BILLION dollar a year industry. Lot of money to be made from infanticde.

 

[mapleoak]

Sadly, there are powerful pro-lifers

What is a powerful pro-lifer?

who do vote against measures that would aid these women and children, like better access to health care for children. Or these same pro-life people don’t even try to understand a woman’s situation and condemn her regardless without offering alternatives.

For example? I have yet to encounter such a pro-lifer. I would suggest getting in touch with your local pro-life organization.

 

[mapleoak]

This thread has taken the usual route of abortion threads. First of acknowledgment of the evil of abortion and the n the abortion apologist step in telling us that it’s really the fault of those who oppose abortion that there are so many abortions and that it is inadequate social services that cause desperate women to kill her child. Both of these contentions are demonstrably false

It is very interesting how these threads typically go from abortion supporters claiming a moral right to have innocent life killed to (upon sensing they cannot adequately justify such a right) to the shift toward the murder of innocents should be legal because pro-lifers don’t do enough. Only after pro-lifers do enough, then would murder become wrong.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Politicians. Specifically the ones who vote to reduce abortion but don’t want to spend any money on public schools or health care for children (which don’t get a lot of money compared to other govn’t funded organizations) because it involves spending money.

And I know pro-lifers personally (like, um, myself? and other friends of mine?), I know they’re not all like that. I actually work with these. I AM pro-life, I just also know a lot of pro-choice people and they HAVE met people like that, so have I in my pro-life work.

The people they encounter offer no solutions but just condemn them and treat them like they’re stupid. I know pro-life people like this and I have the same views as they do! And the pro-choice people I know don’t support forced abortion. Not all of THEM are “like that” either. They think it should be a last resort, that it’s traumatic, but not necessarily murder. Also, a good deal of them (at least, people I know) have been raped and to them, carrying a baby isn’t an option. They need to know that there are other options but they’re not open to pro-life because they’ve been treated like that.

 

[estesbob]

Politicians. Specifically the ones who vote to reduce abortion but don’t want to spend any money on public schools or health care for children (which don’t get a lot of money compared to other govn’t funded organizations) because it involves spending money.

This is categorically false. There have been no reductions in these programs. In fact all of them have increased substantially over the last 16 years. I know this is the primary talking point of those trying to justify killing our children but it simply is not true. Itis a diversion to try to keep the conversation away from 1.2 million dead children a year

And I know pro-lifers personally (like, um, myself? and other friends of mine?), I know they’re not all like that. I actually work with these. I AM pro-life, I just also know a lot of pro-choice people and they HAVE met people like that, so have I in my pro-life work.

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. And for someone is claims to be pro-life you sure spent a lot of time criticizing pro-lifers and justifying the views of those who are pro-abortion.

The people they encounter offer no solutions but just condemn them and treat them like they’re stupid. I know pro-life people like this and I have the same views as they do! And the pro-choice people I know don’t support forced abortion. Not all of THEM are “like that” either. They think it should be a last resort, that it’s traumatic, but not necessarily murder. Also, a good deal of them (at least, people I know) have been raped and to them, carrying a baby isn’t an option. They need to know that there are other options but they’re not open to pro-life because they’ve been treated like that.

Offer no solution !!! .How about we make it illegal for people to kill their children. Is that a solution?

Again I am amazed, but not surprised, at your " blame the Pro life adherents for abortion "mentality

 

[Fitswimmer]

I’m pro-life too, but that doesn’t mean I like the way every other pro life person acts. I spent several years volunteering with an organization that helps single mothers keep their babies and I’ve heard more than enough stories about pro lifers who condemn first. The Director of the program I worked with has turned volunteers away because of their negative attitude and their anger.

Anecdotal evidence is all any of us who volunteer and work with these folks have. If it doesn’t fit the picture people have in their minds, that’s too bad, but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Yes, federal spending on programs to help the poor has increased-but in case it’s escaped your notice-so has the cost of living.

 

[estesbob]

I’m pro-life too, but that doesn’t mean I like the way every other pro life person acts. I spent several years volunteering with an organization that helps single mothers keep their babies and I’ve heard more than enough stories about pro lifers who condemn first. The Director of the program I worked with has turned volunteers away because of their negative attitude and their anger.

Anecdotal evidence is all any of us who volunteer and work with these folks have. If it doesn’t fit the picture people have in their minds, that’s too bad, but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Yes, federal spending on programs to help the poor has increased-but in case it’s escaped your notice-so has the cost of living.

We;ll just agree to disagree. I work in the pro-life Ministry also and don’t see this. However the thread is getting derailed so let’s get back to the topic at hand as I am sure you agree that even if what you say is true it does not justify abortion

 

[sanctamaria17]

This is categorically false. There have been no reductions in these programs. In fact all of them have increased substantially over the last 16 years. I know this is the primary talking point of those trying to justify killing our children but it simply is not true. Itis a diversion to try to keep the conversation away from 1.2 million dead children a year

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. And for someone is claims to be pro-life you sure spent a lot of time criticizing pro-lifers and justifying the views of those who are pro-abortion.

Offer no solution !!! .How about we make it illegal for people to kill their children. Is that a solution?

Again I am amazed, but not surprised, at your " blame the Pro life adherents for abortion "mentality

I do not blame pro-lifers. I blame the ones who DO end up doing nothing. And I don’t criticize all pro-lifers, nor do I necessarily believe pro-choicers have it right. But to most people, abortion isn’t cut and dry. I try to understand people and why they believe what they do. And making it illegal won’t erase the problems that cause abortion in the first place.

And I love being painted with a broad brush, just for trying to understand where people stand, pointing out that those people DO EXIST, and for finding other ways to reduce abortion since legality means NOTHING if people’s hearts haven’t changed.

Stick to the argument, but don’t attack my character.

Thank you, Fitswimmer. I can tell you see where I’m coming from

 

[mapleoak]

I’m pro-life too, but that doesn’t mean I like the way every other pro life person acts. I spent several years volunteering with an organization that helps single mothers keep their babies and I’ve heard more than enough stories about pro lifers who condemn first. The Director of the program I worked with has turned volunteers away because of their negative attitude and their anger.

Anecdotal evidence is all any of us who volunteer and work with these folks have. If it doesn’t fit the picture people have in their minds, that’s too bad, but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Yes, federal spending on programs to help the poor has increased-but in case it’s escaped your notice-so has the cost of living.

And in what way does any of this mean it should remain okay for innocent human life to continue to be slaughtered?

 

[Fitswimmer]

And in what way does any of this mean it should remain okay for innocent human life to continue to be slaughtered?

Did I say it did?

 

[fix]

And making it illegal won’t erase the problems that cause abortion in the first place.

No it won’t, but keeping it legal will allow more innocent babies to be eliminated.

pointing out that those people DO EXIST, and for finding other ways to reduce abortion since legality means NOTHING if people’s hearts haven’t changed.

Changing the law is crucial. For better, or for worse, the civil law plays a central role in people’s lives and they knowingly and unknowningly form their consciences accordingly.

 

[Fitswimmer]

No it won’t, but keeping it legal will allow more innocent babies to be eliminated.

Changing the law is crucial. For better, or for worse, the civil law plays a central role in people’s lives and they knowingly and unknowningly form their consciences accordingly.

I’d like to see some proof for that. People disobey civil laws every single day and think nothing of it-even “good Catholics”. How many people do you see speeding on the highway-and how many people die in traffic deaths each year?