Their efforts are among the means God uses to bring the elect to salvation.Their efforts can in no way change the number or makeup of the elect.
I agree.I am not a Calvinist, but Jesus did say to go and make believers of all nations.
I’m still waiting for a Calvinist to give me a decent explanation of John 20:21-23.I have no answer, BUT now that you mention it, I wonder too. I’ll be following & just “lurking” on this one.
Calvinists claim that nothing a man does has any impact on his salvation. It is decided by God before birth.My understanding is that Calvinists believe that God uses preaching and evangelizing as the means of implementing His will. Although God has chosen who will be saved, they remain unsaved until they believe. God is the first cause in the salvation of those He has predestined. However He uses our evangelizing as a second cause and the means of implementing His will. We are to evangelize because Jesus tells us to and we are to do His will. Everyone must be evangelized because we do not know who may be one of the elect.
Well no. They don’t teach this, and you have been corrected many times. They believe that whether humans repent, believe, and persevere in the faith does have an effect on their final union with God. The fact that you continue to repeat the same stale polemics even after being refuted over and over is hardly to your credit.Calvinists claim that nothing a man does has any impact on his salvation. It is decided by God before birth.
From the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.Calvinists claim that nothing a man does has any impact on his salvation. It is decided by God before birth.
Therefore, according to Calvinist doctrine, evangelization is irrelevant.
If a man is not responsible for his own salvation, how can he be responsible for another man’s salvation.
Calvinists are not consistent.
At this point, the non-Calvinist infers that the impetus and urgency to proclaim the gospel is gone, or diminished at best. After all, if God knows who is going to be saved, and if he will save his elect no matter what, why waste our time evangelizing?
But it is important to recognize that the God of the Bible ordains not only the end (salvation) but also the means to the end (the proclamation of the gospel).
Jesus is the Good Shepherd. And through evangelism, he is calling his sheep to himself. He calls his own sheep by name, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice (John 10:3-4). They know his voice because, at God’s appointed time, the Holy Spirit gives the elect ears to hear and hearts to understand (Matt. 13:23).
The ordinary means by which God gathers his people is through their hearing and believing the gospel message. In Romans 1:16, Paul declares that he is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. In Romans 10:13, he states that “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Then he adds, "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!’ " (Rom. 10:14-15 nasb).
Paul saw that it is the task of the church to proclaim the gospel. The exhortation Paul gives in Romans 10 is sandwiched between chapters 8-9 and 11. Take some time and reread those chapters. Note especially all they have to say about God’s sovereign purposes in election.
Why am I, a Calvinist, so passionate about evangelism? Several reasons immediately spring to mind. First, my Lord Jesus Christ commands me to do so (Mark 16:15). Second, given that my chief duty (and delight) is to glorify God, I am moved by the fact that the Father is honored whenever the Son is honored. The supreme means of honoring the Father is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ (John 5:22-23)! Third, I know that when the nonelect reject the gospel, as they are wont to do, preaching leaves them all the more without excuse when they receive the condemnation they justly deserve. And last, I know that God brings his elect to himself through the preaching of the gospel.
The apostle Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:10, “Therefore, I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.” It is only when we recognize God’s absolute sovereignty that we can be assured of results. God blesses the faithful dissemination of his word. He promises that his word will never return to him void or empty, but will accomplish the purpose for which he sent it (Isa. 55:11).
opc.org/new_horizons/NH01/07b.htmlDoes Calvinism take the wind out of the sails of evangelism? Properly understood and sincerely believed, it does exactly the opposite. Believing that God has a sovereign plan to bring all his elect to himself actually encourages evangelism. It gives confidence to us, God’s people, to fulfill our God-given responsibility to spread his gospel. We know that our labor in the Lord is never in vain (1 Cor. 15:58)!
this post illustrates your utter ignorance regarding the theology of John Calvin; and for that matter the theology of your own church regarding predestination …Their efforts can in no way change the number or makeup of the elect.
Their efforts in no way change their status as one of the elect.(assuming they are one of the elect)
Are they just pretending so be polite?
Correcting me with an error is not really a correction, is it?Well no. They don’t teach this, and you have been corrected many times. They believe that whether humans repent, believe, and persevere in the faith does have an effect on their final union with God. The fact that you continue to repeat the same stale polemics even after being refuted over and over is hardly to your credit.
Edwin
Another one!this post illustrates your utter ignorance regarding the theology of John Calvin; and for that matter the theology of your own church regarding predestination …
From YOUR link:From the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
opc.org/new_horizons/NH01/07b.html
I am trusting that you are actually trying to understand what Calvinists believe and not to just make fun of them.
I realize this is the Non-Catholic Religions Section of the Fora, but Calvin’s position, and certainly the position you list as 1 and 2, is indistinguishable from that of Thomas Aquinas; in other words, it is just good Catholic teaching. See the Summa, Pt.1, Q.23 (esp. art.5, where Thomas denies that election is based in any way upon merit).Another one!
- Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm- Unconditional Election
Men are unconditionally elected by God for His purposes without any prior works (good or evil) by which God would judge them good or evil. The election of men rests solely on the counsel and purposes of God. God has not decreed anything which he foresaw in the future, for that would place His decree upon foreseeing something in the creature.- Calvin’s Institutes states, “All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.”
Thomas Aquinas does not set Catholic Doctrine, and the Calvinist precepts in one and two are not consistent with the catechism.I realize this is the Non-Catholic Religions Section of the Fora, but Calvin’s position, and certainly the position you list as 1 and 2, is indistinguishable from that of Thomas Aquinas; in other words, it is just good Catholic teaching. See the Summa, Pt.1, Q.23 (esp. art.5, where Thomas denies that election is based in any way upon merit).
Do you know where the Calvin quote is found in the Institutues?
salaam.
The doctrine of election as found in Thomas and Calvin does not deny any of that (except for maybe the part about the sacraments for Calvin, but substitute preaching of the word for the sacraments and you are well on your way). Election is still good Catholic doctrine. This is exactly what those passages are about in fact.Thomas Aquinas does not set Catholic Doctrine.
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work,** to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church.** There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments.
Is it not enough for you that Jesus tells us to preach the Gospel to all? That is reason enough for me whether it has any effect or not. However as pointed out God ordains not only the end result but the means of implementing that result. We do not have to understand how or why things happen, just to believe and do what God tells us to.From YOUR link:
The Calvinist believes that God’s election is unconditional. That means that almighty God did not base his election upon any good thing (such as faith, good works, etc.) that he foresaw in those he chose. His election could never be based upon anything inherently attractive or good in fallen man.
What is the point of evangelism if faith and works are irrelevant?
Seriously, why bother?
You just keep digging deeper!
It is enough for me.Is it not enough for you that Jesus tells us to preach the Gospel to all? .
Here’s the link to Calvin’s quote: (Hope it works)The doctrine of election as found in Thomas and Calvin does not deny any of that (except for maybe the part about the sacraments for Calvin, but substitute preaching of the word for the sacraments and you are well on your way). Election is still good Catholic doctrine. This is exactly what those passages are about in fact.
Thomas is THE model of Catholic theology and philosophy.
salaam.
p.s. i really am curious where in the Institutes that Calvin quote is from.