Why should Calvinists Care about Evangelization?

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Manchester was a history professor emeritus at Wesleyan University.
According to wikipedia he was an adjunct. I know of no evidence that he ever held a full-time, tenured or tenure-track academic position.
He probably wasn’t the village idiot.
I never suggested that he was. I am only pointing out that there is a guild of historians and that Manchester was not a full member of that guild, much less a prominent, respected member. That doesn’t mean that what he writes should be dismissed. It means that you can’t claim authority for it by throwing around terms like “respected historian.” It’s also relevant that most of Manchester’s work was on the 20th century.

I have never heard an expert on the 16th century make this claim about Calvin, nor have I seen it in any scholarly work on the 16th century. The claim always seems to go back to Manchester. I think that’s a good reason to suspect that Manchester, who was not a scholar of the period or even a fully credentialed academic historian at all, got something wrong, particularly given his obvious bias.
“Secularist hatchet jobs” notwithstanding, I think we can say that Calvin was probably not a very nice guy if you transgressed.
Sixteenth-century governments, and the religious figures (of whatever tradition) who took it upon themselves to advise governments on moral issues, were never nice to transgressors. What is remarkable about this?
The central issue that Calvinists do not like to address is the problem of a loving God creating people and breathing life into them knowing that He will consign them to hell by default. Created for destruction? Seems weird.
Indeed. Which is why I don’t believe in it. But the problem of evil is a problem for all theists. There are no easy answers. “Free will” may be an answer but it’s not an easy one–it raises all sorts of problems. Calvin’s approach was to cut the Gordian knot, which was crude and barbaric. I’m no great fan of Calvin, but I’m not going to let him be slandered or misrepresented if I can help it.

Edwin
 
I have made no baseless claims. That is a slander. I have provided direct quotes from multiple Calvinist sources. The only baseless claims are coming from you and one other defender of Calvin(both non Calvnists!) who refuse to take him at his word. I find it amusing that the two Calvinist posters who have participated here are under no such illusions. They admit the harsh realities of the doctrine they hold.
Once more, you are completely distorting what we are saying. The question is not whether Calvin should be taken at his word. You admit that Calvin himself fails to see the alleged implications of his theology, as do Calvinists. So your statement above is simply false, and you ought to know this given your own earlier posts. The Calvinist posters routinely agree with us that you are claiming implications for their doctrines that they do not admit.

Edwin
 
Once more, you are completely distorting what we are saying. The question is not whether Calvin should be taken at his word. You admit that Calvin himself fails to see the alleged implications of his theology, as do Calvinists. So your statement above is simply false, and you ought to know this given your own earlier posts. The Calvinist posters routinely agree with us that you are claiming implications for their doctrines that they do not admit.

Edwin
Here are two Calvinists responses from this thread:

My question:

According to Calvinist doctrine, can ANY human activity change who ends up in heaven and hell?

Their answers:

1)I’ll help you out; NO, because God is the determiner of who gains entrance into heaven and therefore by default who doesn’t.

2)Change as in converting themselves or others? No. God decides their fate. A preacher doesn’t cause one’s salvation, nor does the elect change himself to decide either Heaven or Hell.

Given these responses, the quotes from Luther, and the quotes from Calvinist web sites…

Why should a Calvinist care about evangelization?
 
Here are two Calvinists responses from this thread:

My question:

According to Calvinist doctrine, can ANY human activity change who ends up in heaven and hell?

Their answers:

1)I’ll help you out; NO, because God is the determiner of who gains entrance into heaven and therefore by default who doesn’t.

2)Change as in converting themselves or others? No. God decides their fate. A preacher doesn’t cause one’s salvation, nor does the elect change himself to decide either Heaven or Hell.

Given these responses, the quotes from Calvin, and the quotes from Calvinist web sites…

Why should a Calvinist care about evangelization?
Note the change from Luther to Calvin.

I’m not sure what happened in my brain to confuse those two.
 
Here are two Calvinists responses from this thread:

My question:

According to Calvinist doctrine, can ANY human activity change who ends up in heaven and hell?

Their answers:

1)I’ll help you out; NO, because God is the determiner of who gains entrance into heaven and therefore by default who doesn’t.

2)Change as in converting themselves or others? No. God decides their fate. A preacher doesn’t cause one’s salvation, nor does the elect change himself to decide either Heaven or Hell.

Given these responses, the quotes from Luther, and the quotes from Calvinist web sites…

Why should a Calvinist care about evangelization?
Do the Calvinists on this board agree that they have no reason to care about evangelization?

Edwin
 
Do the Calvinists on this board agree that they have no reason to care about evangelization?

Edwin
No.

However, this disagreement is directly contradicted by their doctrines, as I have demonstrated.

That’s the point of the thread.

Do you believe that Calvinists have a reason to care about evangelization?

If so, what is that reason.
 
No.

However, this disagreement is directly contradicted by their doctrines, as I have demonstrated.

That’s the point of the thread.
Exactly. The point of disagreement between you and just about everyone else is whether the Calvinist belief in predestination really has this consequence. Yet whenever challenged, you pretend that the point of disagreement is over whether Calvinists actually believe in predestination, which is not the point on which anyone is disagreeing with you.
Do you believe that Calvinists have a reason to care about evangelization?
If so, what is that reason.
The one I have given over and over again: Calvinists do not think that it is ignoble or meaningless to be instruments of God’s purpose. Of course they believe that God has chosen to save certain persons. And they also believe that God has chosen to save those persons through the ministry of certain other persons.

Edwin
 
Exactly. The point of disagreement between you and just about everyone else is whether the Calvinist belief in predestination really has this consequence. Yet whenever challenged, you pretend that the point of disagreement is over whether Calvinists actually believe in predestination, which is not the point on which anyone is disagreeing with you.

The one I have given over and over again: Calvinists do not think that it is ignoble or meaningless to be instruments of God’s purpose. Of course they believe that God has chosen to save certain persons. And they also believe that God has chosen to save those persons through the ministry of certain other persons.

Edwin
Let me try again with a key word highlighted:

Why should Calvinists Care about Evangelization?
 
My point is that Aquinas is not Catholic Doctrine. He had no confidence in his own conclusions, apparently.

The Church has been very careful to avoid taking a strong position on these issues. However, I believe that portions of Augustine and Aquinas can be demonstrated to be outside the teaching of grace and justification in the catechism.
Insofar as Calvin’s position is Augustinian, most Thomists are going to have to defend Calvin. It is not Calvin’s teaching on election that places him in opposition to the Catholic Church. So, unlike Contarini, on election at least, I actually think Calvin is right. Not only are you interpreting Calvin poorly (almost to the point of being unrecognizable), Calvin’s teaching on election is more sound than anything you have offered so far.

Beyond that, the Church has in fact expressed a great deal of confidence in Thomas and in Thomas’ teaching, and they have done so repeatedly. Thus to suggest that Thomas (and Augustine) is outside the bounds of Catholic teaching is ridiculous. Apparently it is the case that you do not merely not understand Calvin, you do not have a good sense of how important Thomas is to your own tradition.

So, my last word for a while on this thread will be to remind you how important Thomas is and what you are taking on in attacking Thomas…

Leo XIII’s Aeterni Patris summarizes the issue very well calling on those interested in Catholic philosophy and theology to emulate those who came before and “surrendered themselves to his angelic wisdom, not merely to be taught by his words to be nourished by them. It is plain that nearly founders and lawgivers of religious orders have bidden their children study the doctrines of Thomas, and very religiously adhere to them…”

Leo then goes on to list all the Popes who have commended the work of Thomas for study and held it up as the standard of Catholic intellectual achievement. He concludes that with a quote from one of the first to champion Thomas, Innocent VI: “His doctrine above all other doctrine, with one exception of the Holy Scriptures, has such a propriety of word, such a method of explanation, such a truth of opinions, that no who holds it will ever be found to have strayed from the path of truth; whereas anyone who attacked it has always been suspected as to the truth.” (emphasis mine)

Leo doesn’t stop there though, he argues that Thomas is the presiding mind at a string of Councils, guiding the deliberations. This is seen most clearly at Trent, says Leo, where “we now come to the greatest glory of Thomas – a glory which is his own, and shared by no other Catholic Doctor. In the midst of the Council of Trent, the assembled Fathers so willing it, the Summa of Thomas Aquinas lay open on the altar, with the Holy Scriptures, and the decrees of the Supreme Pontiffs, that from it might be sought counsel and reasons and answers.” This indicates for us the level of authority that Thomas has, says Leo.

Leo concludes with the following: “Let, then, teachers be carefully chosen by you to do their best to instill the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas into the minds of their hearers; and let them clearly point out its solidity and excellence above all other teaching.”

And just in case you think that was some moment of incense induced delusion of poor Leo, John Paul II, in Fides et Ratio reaffirms Aeterni Patris, and expresses disappointment that it is not being followed with the enthusiasm that one would like. Thomas is being ignored and it is wrong to do so. One sees this in ##43-44, which is explicitly on Thomas, but also again in the #60s where JP2 reaffirms Leo and again holds Thomas up as the standard which should guide Catholic thought.

This is how high a regard Catholicism has for Thomas. If you want to know and understand Catholicism…You read Thomas! If you want to know what Catholic’s believe and why…Read Thomas.

Your attack on Calvin, which only continues because you stubbornly refuse to listen to Calvin (who tells you why preaching is important), or to anyone else who has tried to tell you why human action is important in Calvin, is at the same time an attack on Thomas. And Thomas is NOT, in any way shape or form, outside Catholic doctrine. Thomas is THE great systematic philosophical and theological expositor of the Catholic tradition according to Leo13 and JP2, etc.

Clearly by this point I have given up hope that you will read Calvin rightly. I can only hold out some small hope that you will stop attempting to tear down the central figures of your (and my) own Catholic tradition by suggesting that election undermines the integrity of human actions. Instead, with Augustine, Thomas and Calvin we must find the true integrity of human actions in the fact that they are grounded in the divine election.

Allahu alam.
 
Insofar as Calvin’s position is Augustinian, most Thomists are going to have to defend Calvin. It is not Calvin’s teaching on election that places him in opposition to the Catholic Church. So, unlike Contarini, on election at least, I actually think Calvin is right. Not only are you interpreting Calvin poorly (almost to the point of being unrecognizable), Calvin’s teaching on election is more sound than anything you have offered so far.

Beyond that, the Church has in fact expressed a great deal of confidence in Thomas and in Thomas’ teaching, and they have done so repeatedly. Thus to suggest that Thomas (and Augustine) is outside the bounds of Catholic teaching is ridiculous. Apparently it is the case that you do not merely not understand Calvin, you do not have a good sense of how important Thomas is to your own tradition.

So, my last word for a while on this thread will be to remind you how important Thomas is and what you are taking on in attacking Thomas…

Leo XIII’s Aeterni Patris summarizes the issue very well calling on those interested in Catholic philosophy and theology to emulate those who came before and “surrendered themselves to his angelic wisdom, not merely to be taught by his words to be nourished by them. It is plain that nearly founders and lawgivers of religious orders have bidden their children study the doctrines of Thomas, and very religiously adhere to them…”

Leo then goes on to list all the Popes who have commended the work of Thomas for study and held it up as the standard of Catholic intellectual achievement. He concludes that with a quote from one of the first to champion Thomas, Innocent VI: “His doctrine above all other doctrine, with one exception of the Holy Scriptures, has such a propriety of word, such a method of explanation, such a truth of opinions, that no who holds it will ever be found to have strayed from the path of truth; whereas anyone who attacked it has always been suspected as to the truth.” (emphasis mine)

Leo doesn’t stop there though, he argues that Thomas is the presiding mind at a string of Councils, guiding the deliberations. This is seen most clearly at Trent, says Leo, where “we now come to the greatest glory of Thomas – a glory which is his own, and shared by no other Catholic Doctor. In the midst of the Council of Trent, the assembled Fathers so willing it, the Summa of Thomas Aquinas lay open on the altar, with the Holy Scriptures, and the decrees of the Supreme Pontiffs, that from it might be sought counsel and reasons and answers.”

Leo concludes with the following: “Let, then, teachers be carefully chosen by you do their best to instill the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas into the minds of their hearers; and let them clearly point out its solidity and excellence above all other teaching.”

And just in case you think that was some moment of incense induced delusion of poor Leo, John Paul II, in Fides et Ratio reaffirms Aeterni Patris, and expresses disappointment that it is not being followed with the enthusiasm that one would like. Thomas is being ignored and it is wrong to do so. One sees this in ##43-44, which is explicitly on Thomas, but also again in the #60s where JP2 reaffirms Leo and again holds Thomas up as the standard which should guide Catholic thought.

This is how high a regard Catholicism has for Thomas. If you want to know and understand Catholicism…You read Thomas! If you want to know what Catholic’s believe and why…Read Thomas.

Your attack on Calvin, which only continues because you stubbornly refuse to listen to Calvin (who tells you why preaching is important), or to anyone else who has tried to tell you why human action is important in Calvin, is at the same time an attack on Thomas. And Thomas is NOT, in any way shape or form, outside Catholic doctrine. Thomas is THE great systematic philosophical and theological expositor of the Catholic tradition according to Leo13 and JP2, etc.

Clearly by this point I have given up hope that you will read Calvin rightly. I can only hold out some small hope that you will stop attempting to tear down the central figures of your (and my) own Catholic tradition by suggesting that election undermines the integrity of human actions. Instead, with Augustine, Thomas and Calvin we must find the true integrity of human actions in the fact that they are grounded in the divine election.

Allahu alam.
Perhaps you missed these points.

*Not everything a doctor of the Church writes is doctrine.

Aquinas is probably the greatest theologian in history.*

The Calvinistic view of election, specifically limited atonement, unconditional election and irresistible grace, is directly contradicted by the catechism.

2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul **only enters freely **into the communion of love.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.** Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.** Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
 
Let me try again with a key word highlighted:

Why should Calvinists Care about Evangelization?
For the reasons I have given, and for the reasons that any Calvinist would give you if you bothered to ask them. Because God has chosen to save people only through the preaching of the Word.

Edwin
 
For the reasons I have given, and for the reasons that any Calvinist would give you if you bothered to ask them. Because God has chosen to save people only through the preaching of the Word.

Edwin
You have painted yourself into a corner.

I have no idea what you are trying to prove, but you have demonstrated your inability to add 2 + 2.
 
Perhaps you missed these points.

*Not everything a doctor of the Church writes is doctrine.

Aquinas is probably the greatest theologian in history.*
I’d say he ranks among one of Aristotles greatest advocates in history (don’t know about greatest theologian in history). If you want great Catholic theology, Augustine is a better bet IMO.
The Calvinistic view of election, specifically limited atonement, unconditional election and irresistible grace, is directly contradicted by the catechism.
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul **only enters freely **into the communion of love.
Nothing about Calvinism refutes these elements of your catechism. We acknowledge men do as they please, possess moral accountability, and can only love God (or anyone for that matter) without compulsion.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.** **
So then you believe forgiveness is universal without qualification (in other words whether one has faith or not they are forgiven … so now there is no longer a basis for punishment since guilt for sin is no longer imputed to anyone). Or do you believe atonement is only received by faith. If you believe the latter then how do you suppose we acquire faith?
If we’re given a choice (and grace enables a positive response, even though we also retain the ability to resist), and we choose “yes” … then isn’t it OUR DESIRE AND EFFORT? In other words isn’t it something about us, notwithstanding the prevenient grace you suppose God imputes universally, that distinguishes us from the heathen? Well, who created us in the first place?
 
So then you believe forgiveness is universal without qualification (in other words whether one has faith or not they are forgiven … so now there is no longer a basis for punishment since guilt for sin is no longer imputed to anyone). Or do you believe atonement is only received by faith. If you believe the latter then how do you suppose we acquire faith?

QUOTE]

We must respond to God’s grace, which is sufficient for all.

When someone goes to hell, it is because they reject God’s grace, not because he withheld it.
 
orange_man;4962540:
So then you believe forgiveness is universal without qualification (in other words whether one has faith or not they are forgiven … so now there is no longer a basis for punishment since guilt for sin is no longer imputed to anyone). Or do you believe atonement is only received by faith. If you believe the latter then how do you suppose we acquire faith?

QUOTE]

We must respond to God’s grace, which is sufficient for all.

When someone goes to hell, it is because they reject God’s grace, not because he withheld it.
So then you believe there are some men who are born with more sense than others? Moreover, what about those never exposed to the Gospel (taking into account verses like Romans 10:14)?

The problem with your view IMO is that it cannot be reconciled with scripture. Even if we are to assume some sort of universal prevenient grace is true (that is God imputes grace sufficient to choose Christ to every human being) your system still requires something inherent in us that enables us to choose one thing over the other. There’s no reconciling this idea with scripture … read Augustine, he tried & finally gave up (realizing that saving grace is not given to everyone). The idea of foreseen faith is not new (nor was it invented by Jacob Arminius). Arguably it can be traced back to as early as Justin Martyr (though I’ve read some Calvinist scholars who believe otherwise, suffice it to say after reading Martyr I disagree with those scholars).

At Romans 10:14 Paul tells us (I’m paraphrasing) no one can believe in a God they’ve never heard of. In other words the Holy Spirit works through us to reach others, and when a Christian preaches to a non-believer that is an aspect of divine grace. Rom. 10:14 is one of many verses that are simply impossible to reconcile with the idea of a universal prevenient grace.
 
I’d say he ranks among one of Aristotles greatest advocates in history
That is a traditional stereotype of Aquinas, and in my opinion is an unfair one. While he draws heavily from Aristotle, he also radically alters Aristotelian philosophy.

If you haven’t read it, I would strongly recommend Alasdair McIntyre’s Three Rival Versions of Moral Inquiry, which describes how Aquinas blends Augustinianism and Aristotelianism in such a manner as to resolve problems latent in both.

Edwin
 
CHESTERTONRULES;4962548:
So then you believe there are some men who are born with more sense than others? Moreover, what about those never exposed to the Gospel (taking into account verses like Romans 10:14)?
We are all born with freedom to choose or reject God.

Those who are never exposed to the gospel will not be judged by the same standard as you and I.

1 Tim 4

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Luke 12

47 “And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.
 
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