Why should Catholics Abhore OSAS?

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

What I mean is, even though we are told that God is good, and in Him is no evil, He is able to cause evil, and not violate His nature.

If you do not agree, what objections do have to that statement

I object, because it makes no sense to say that an omniscient God that is all holy and all good by nature can be the cause of evil. An omniscient and omnipotent God that is by nature only good, would be acting against his nature if he knowingly causes evil.

Now if God was like an infant that accidentally sets a house on fire, we might be able to say that a good God can be a cause of evil because he acts out of bumbling ignorance. But surely this strange concept of God would be alien to most Calvinists (unless they are the fringe Calvinists that believe in process theology).

And of course a God that does evil out of ignorance raises another question. It implies that the goodness or badness of God’s actions are measured against some standard that is not God. A standard that is above God. But there is no need to delve into that absurdity.

 

[linus]

thessalonian:

I’ve gone round and round with your type making every kind of excuse for what the Bible teaches. Ignoring or discrediting the hard verses and finding some “context” which fits your thinking.

Actually, what you’ve done is ignore everything I wrote, which I figured you’d do. Can’t say I was surprised. I ignore none of the Scriptures, including what you call the “hard verses,” but interpret them in their intended and obvious context. You prejudge me, confronting me as if I were a five-point Calvinist - which I am not. Nor am I arminian.

Yet the only way you can know you are one of the elect is to persevere in good works and strive for righteousness, growing in holiness. Yet the only way you can know you are one of the elect is to persevere in good works and strive for righteousness, growing in holiness. He said “you shall know them by their fruits”

The assurance of my salvation is not based on whether or not I believe I am one of God’s “elect.” In fact, there’s no place in Scripture that ever requires me to believe that I am one of the “elect” for salvation. Such is not the Biblical basis for salvation. My faith, and the assurance of my salvation, rests completely in the Person of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross, which He accomplished perfectly and completely on my behalf (and all of Adam’s fallen race, Jn. 1:29). In other words, the assurance of a true believer’s salvation rests totally on this historic event - in a vacant cross and an empty tomb.

Let me ask you, what does the following passage mean to you (please read it in the context of all of Romans chapters four and five)?

*“He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…” * (Rom. 4:25-5:2).

Peter is an excellent example. He had to have fallen from grace.

Again!! The phrase “fallen from grace” is used only one place in Scripture:

GAL 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

Those who fall from grace are those who abandon Paul’ gospel of grace and adhere to a works gospel. Hence, like the Galatians, seeking to be justified by works. I’m afraid you may be of those who have* “fallen from grace,”* seeking to be justified before God through your own meritorious works.

Peter is an excellent example. He had to have fallen from grace. Jesus says “if you deny me before men I will deny you before my father in heaven”. Now we know from MAtt 16 that Peter had faith, given to him from God the Father that Christ was the Messaih. Yet he denied Christ. How many times can you get away with denying Christ. Was he bluffing. I’ve heard all the arguements to this one. None of them come close to making sense.

You totally lack understanding of the meaning of the cross of Christ and His present intercessory work in Heaven as High Priest on the behalf of all true believers. In fact, Peter is a perfect example of His High Priestly, intercessory work. Read the full account in Luke 22:31-34. Jesus told Peter beforehand that he would deny him and that Satan petitioned to “*sift him like wheat.” * But Peter belonged to Christ and Jesus prayed for him that his faith not fail, and once his faith was strengthened again he was instructed by Jesus to then strengthen his brothers as well. Peter didn’t “fall from grace!!!” He wasn’t seeking to be justified by works. Belonging to Christ he was “under grace” and Christ interceded for him on behalf of his weakness (which is also the work of the Holy Spirit who indwells all true believers, Rom. 8:26).

You utterly fail to understand (1) the love of Christ toward those who are His, i…e, those who are bought (redeemed) with the price of His shed blood (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23), and (2) His work as High Priest in Heaven on behalf of those who are His. Read what the writer of Hebrews says concerning Christ’s High Priestly work in Heaven on behalf of those who belong to Him:

“Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Heb. 7:25).

Peter is the perfect example of Heb. 7:25. May you come to understand that Christ has the power to save, forever, those who draw near to God through Him, and that your introduction to this sovereign grace is through faith in Him alone.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt16_18:

I object, because it makes no sense to say that an omniscient God that is all holy and all good by nature can be the cause of evil. An omniscient and omnipotent God that is by nature only good, would be acting against his nature if he knowingly causes evil.

I understand your objection, and I will work to show that it is not only possible for God to cause evil while not compromising His holiness, but that He indeed does so. I will post it later this morning.

Bill

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

To make an analogy from the Godfather, your god is like an omnipotent Don Vito Corleone, and Luca Brasi (Don Corleone’s hit man) is like Satan.

Don Corleone is a cause of both what is good and what is evil in his world. Don Corleone can will "blessings” such as expensive weddings for his children, so he is a cause of good. But when Don Vito Corleone wants a person murdered, he has his hit man Luca Brasi does the dirty work for him. Don Corleone doesn’t actually pull the trigger in the murder, but he is still guilty of the murder, because he ordered the murder to happen.

I do acknowledge my analogy is not perfect, because Luca Brasi was always free to not commit murder for Don Corleone.

Before I forget, and before I continue with my argument, I will comment on your analogy above.

First, I love those movies. Your analogy is a good one, with respect to creature controlling creature; however, where it cannot stand is in comparison to the scenario of the Bible; in the Bible, we have Creator controlling creature.

Corleone can call Brasi into his office many times and order a hit; Corleone’s assumption is that Brasi will always do as he is told; however, Brasi could, at any time, say “no,” and in fact, he could then pull out his gun and kill Corleone. Corleone does not have absolute control over Brasi.

In the Biblical scenario this could never happen; it is an absolute impossibility. The creature could never disobey the will of the Creator; he is compelled to do the Creator’s will. I speak in absolute terms of the decretive/secret will of God, which I have stated, is absolutely fixed, and it is never thwarted.

Also, with respect to the Lewis quotes on sin being a “thing.” He indeed calls sin a thing; the quotes you furnished are on pages 44 and 45 in the chapter title you cited (in the printing of the copy that I have). By his own admission, Lewis is a layman and not a theologian. So, I would recommend a book entitled The Sinfulness of Sin, by the Puritan writer Ralph Venning, in which he too, describes sin as a “thing.” For your further consideration I refer you to Rom 5:12, in which verse Paul says that “sin entered the world.” If sin is not a thing, but a “no thing,” nothing, how is it possible for nothing to enter the world?

It is important to understand sin not as the “absence of something,” but as it is presented in scripture: some"thing.”

Bill

 

[Ignatius]

linus:

Those who fall from grace are those who abandon Paul’ gospel of grace and adhere to a works gospel.

I’m sorry linus, I am not going to just take your word for this. I don’t even find the term “works gospel” anywhere in the bible.

Of course grace is through God alone. However He gives us the grace so that we can do His will. Without His grace we have no hope. However if we choose to turn from his grace and again become intangled in our sin, we will be worse off than if we had never received it. See 2 Peter below.

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Paul also says the same thing.
1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Your brother in Christ.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

I object, because it makes no sense to say that an omniscient God that is all holy and all good by nature can be the cause of evil. An omniscient and omnipotent God that is by nature only

good, would be acting against his nature if he knowingly causes evil.I’ll call the first part of my argument God plans, and He acts

Acts 15:17-18 (NASB95)
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

The context is Paul and Barnabas telling what things God had done through them for the gentiles. There were some objections from believing Pharisees, which led to the Jerusalem Council, and James declaration above concerning God’s inclusion of the gentiles in the church. The underlined of v 18 is my focus. James here quotes from Amos 9:12, and Is 45:21. The question arises: what is meant by “makes these things known from long ago.” Remember, James is not directly quoting those two passages, he is paraphrasing them, as the apostles often do to either reference them, or to expand upon the O.T. verse in a fuller N.T. context. Let’s look at Amos 9:12, specifically, the very end of v 12: Amos 9:12: *Declares the Lord who does this. *The sense from Amos is that the Lord “does” these things: converted the gentiles and includes them in salvation.

These things (Acts 15:18) were “known” of old. The word “known” is not the object of the verb to make or do, which in fact is only a participle; the word “known” is adjectival (it describes) “these things.” A literal translation is, “says the Lord doing these things, known from old” But who knew these things of old? Certainly not Amos; most of the Christians who saw these things happening did not understand them. Amos even less. It was God who knew. But to say that God knew these things from of old, say, from the time of Moses, or even Adam, is an incongruous suggestion. In addition to such a temporally limited reference, the words can equally well be translated “from eternity” and this is what the sense of the verse requires. The point is, God’s knows these things as absolutely fixed from eternity; they will not, no, they cannot be changed. So we see from that, that God plans. God also acts.

I cannot list all of the O.T. prophecies, but you can think of dozens of them, in which God says that He will do this or that. He tells Abraham, I will make you a great nation and I will bless you, and through you all the nations of the earth will be blessed. Prior to that God predicts the slavery of the Israelites in Egypt. He says, that nation that they serve, I will judge. In both places God declares His plan and purpose. It is not merely a statement of what will happen, but a statement that God will do it; and then He does it. God plans; He acts.

Think of some other things God has done, He created the world; He created Adam; He created Eve from Adam’s rib; He drove them from the Garden; He destroyed the world by sending a flood; there is a plethora of things that God has done; we want to know whether or not God did all these things deliberately and on purpose, or did He merely react to some unexpected and unpleasant interruptions?

We’ll look at four passages that are very general. The first two are practically identical in thought and word.

Psalm 115:3 (NASB95)
3 *But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. *

Psalm 135:6 (NASB95)
6 *Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. *

People are not surprised to hear that it pleased the Lord to deliver Israel from the bondage and slavery of Egypt, and He did so. What surprises people is to hear that it pleased the Lord to enslave them for several hundred years before delivering them. But since, as the Psalmist says, the Lord does whatever He pleases, it follows that He was pleased to enslave them in Egypt for the time that they were enslaved, or He would have delivered them sooner, or not enslaved them at all. There are other examples: the destruction of Jerusalem in 588 B.C., and 70 A.D., the sacking of Rome in 410 A.D., the Napoleonic wars, WWI and WWII and Hitler. Had God pleased, these things would not have happened, but they did. At the very least, then, we must say that God was pleased to let history occur as it has.

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #166)

But, we can say more. Let’s use a verse that adds to the idea of the two previous Psalms.

Isaiah 46:10 (NASB95)
10 *Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; *

The end from the beginning reflects on the eternity of God’s knowledge. My purpose will be established, needs emphasis. How extensive is God’s purpose? Purpose, or counsel means design or plan. What does this design or purpose include? Does anything escape it? Here we recall God’s omniscience; He knows everything. He must, if He is to provide for every beast and creeping thing. He must, if He is to bring about the fulfillment of all of the prophecies He has prophesied. A change in dynasty was needed to enslave the Israelites in Egypt after Joseph’s death; Judas and Pontius Pilate had to be born in a certain century, and therefore, their parents had to marry at a given time, and their parents, and their parents and so on; many conditions had to be satisfied, and many of those conditions depended on remoter events. The fulfillment of any one prophecy requires complete control of the entire universe, to ensure that nothing happens to prevent its fulfillment. When God says His counsel shall stand, He asserts his omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent control. That is His pleasure. He has arranged things so. He did not look ahead and see what would happen independently from Him; nothing is independent from Him; He created everything. Thus what has happened, and what is yet to happen are all parts of God’s plan. Nothing that God wants done is left undone. If God had not wanted Jerusalem destroyed, it would not have been destroyed. If God had not wanted Hitler to do what he did, Hitler would not have done it. Clearly, God wanted those two things, and everything else to be done.

This next verse: Daniel 4:35: “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’”

The first phrase of the verse shows that human desires and preferences cannot be used as objections to God’s intentions. Not only were the desires of Pharaoh irrelevant to the escape of the Israelites, but the pious hopes of Jeremiah could not deter God from destroying Jerusalem. It is an important truth that God uses men in His plans; God used Jeremiah; but he used him to increase the guilt of the wicked kings and false prophets. Yet Jeremiah himself and all of the inhabitants of the earth together are reputed as nothing. The world and the course of history were not planned ultimately for them, but for the glory of God. Since this is so, and since God is omnipotent in His decrees of what will transpire in the heavens and in the earth; no one can ward off His hand. Because God willed to destroy Jerusalem and decreed to overthrow the Roman Empire, no military energy could ward off His hand. God’s decision was inevitable, unavoidable, unpreventable, necessary and fixed. It was also irresistible that the barbarians should plunge Europe into a period of Dark Ages, and that not only Bleshazzar, but several presidents of the United States should be murdered. People may not like this, but no one can stay God’s hand, nor complain by saying “What have you done?”

(continued below)

 

[sonseeker]

(continued from post #167)

Those four verses are general: God controls everything; He does what He pleases. The next two verses point to two single events, directed particularly at two individuals, but that are universal in scope with regard to God’s actions.

Daniel 11:36: “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.

Job 23:13-14: “*But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does. *
14 “*For He performs what is appointed for me, And many such decrees are with Him. *

The first verse refers to an evil king who will prosper “until the indignation is finished.” Then a particular event presumably including the destruction of the king will take place, because it is “that which is decreed [and it] will be done.” It is a particular, individual event whose certainty is based on the principle that what is determined will be done.

The second verse is a different event with identical implications. Job acknowledges that God cannot be turned from a series of events which He has planned. Whatever God desires, that He does. This may mean that Job must suffer, for God will to do Job whatever He has appointed or decreed for Job. As in Daniel, the certainty of the events in Job will occur because God has so planned them to occur. It is important to note that this principle applies no more to the events Job had in mind, or the event Daniel had mind than it applies to every individual event from the beginning to the end.

I’ll let you read, digest, and object to this before continuing. Then I will show that God determines human decisions.

Bill

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

Corleone can call Brasi into his office many times and order a hit; Corleone’s assumption is that Brasi will always do as he is told; however, Brasi could, at any time, say “no,” and in fact, he could then pull out his gun and kill Corleone. Corleone does not have absolute control over Brasi.

I don’t know why you are bringing up the fact that a real life Brasi would have free will . I already made this same point when I said: “I do acknowledge my analogy is not perfect, because Luca Brasi was always free to not commit murder for Don Corleone. But Satan, in your theology, is unlike Luca Brasi, because Satan has no free will. Your god is even more guilty that Don Corleone, because your god murders through intermediaries that have no free will. Don Corleone would surely be envious of your god’s absolutely loyal and ruthlessly evil foot soldiers. “

In the Biblical scenario this could never happen; it is an absolute impossibility. The creature could never disobey the will of the Creator; he is compelled to do the Creator’s will. I speak in absolute terms of the decretive/secret will of God, which I have stated, is absolutely fixed, and it is never thwarted.

But of course, this is exactly where you are wrong. Lucifer and Adam did disobey God’s will and that is why they fell. God did not will for Lucifer and Adam to be disobedient to his will! Satan is NOT an obedient foot soldier of God, he is a REBEL that does not obey God’s will. Adam REBELLED when he disobeyed God. Why is the concept of rebellion against God so difficult for you to grasp? What do you think sin is?

Also, with respect to the Lewis quotes on sin being a “thing.” He indeed calls sin a thing …

You have obviously never read Mere Christianity. Please read it, and then you will know for yourself why Lewis would never agree with you.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

The fulfillment of any one prophecy requires complete control of the entire universe, to ensure that nothing happens to prevent its fulfillment. When God says His counsel shall stand, He asserts his omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent control. That is His pleasure. He has arranged things so. He did not look ahead and see what would happen independently from Him; nothing is independent from Him; He created everything. Thus what has happened, and what is yet to happen are all parts of God’s plan.

I certainly agree that God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, and that evil in the world has not made God lose control of his creation. But you make an egregious error when you imply that part of God’s plan is for creatures to rebel against his will.

Think of this way: Almighty God has created a little playground so that angels and men could have a place to play. Now God’s will is that we should all play nice in our playground, but we have the freedom to disobedient children. God is not pleased that angels and men have decided to quit playing nice and they are now vandalizing the playground. Just because God allows a bunch of disobedient brats to deface the playground does not mean that God has lost control of the playground.

At the snap of his fingers, God created not only the playground, but also the the angels and people in the playground, and at that snap of his fingers, and God can restore the damage the vandals have done to the playground . He can also punish the vandals at the snap of his finger.

Jesus is like the brother from college that has come into the playground and told the little brats to wise up. Jesus tells us that if we say we are sorry, Dad will forgive us, but if we keep up our bad behavior, Dad is going to punish us – and it isn’t going to be timeout for a few minutes. Jesus has told us that Dad is only going to put up with our rebellion for so long, and that we better start shaping up now while we still have time.

Dad is in control of the playground; there is no doubt about that. But it is not Dad’s will that a bunch of little brats are not playing nice with each other and are vandalizing his playground.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

I refer you to Rom 5:12, in which verse Paul says that “sin entered the world.” If sin is not a thing, but a “no thing,” nothing, how is it possible for nothing to enter the world?

I love a “thing”? Is it possible for love to enter the world? Love is not a thing like a rock or a pigeon, and neither is sin. Sin entered the world when Adam decided to exercise his free will in an act of rebellion against God. When Adam rebelled, death entered into his world, just as God said would happen. The lamb that lost life so that Adam’s shame could be covered up was the first innocent victim that suffered death because of Adam’s rebellion against God.

Another lamb had to lose his life so that Adam could be restored to grace.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

But of course, this is exactly where you are wrong…Satan is NOT an obedient foot soldier of God, he is a REBEL that does not obey God’s will.

So far from the truth, you are.

Job 1:6-12: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.”
8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.”
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 “Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 *“But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” *
12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

Luke 22:31: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

Explain those verses. Satan is so obedient, that he seeks God’s permission to do what he wants to do. Also, notice Satan’s phrasing in v11, his asking for permission, “Put forth Your [God’s] hand now and touch all that he has.” The demon understands what you do not.

“It is a real recognition of the fact that evil is a parasite, not an original thing.” That is a quote which you furnished, and to which I replied, that Lewis agreed with me that evil is a “thing” (I said evil was “something”). Lewis calls it a parasite, and an unoriginal thing; is not a parasite a thing? Is not a thing a thing. I must belabor this; in response to what I have just said, all you say is:
Matt 16_18:

You have obviously never read Mere Christianity

. Please read it, and then you will know for yourself why Lewis would never agree with you.Explain how it is that Lewis calls evil a thing, but doesn’t mean that it is a thing?
Matt 16_18:

Think of this way: Almighty God has created a little playground so that angels and men could have a place to play.

This analogy reflects your philosophy; your theology, which is false, is also in view in that statement.

Until you understand that God did not create this universe for you, but for Himself, and His glory, He will keep you in your false theology.

Until you understand that all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and that …*every man at his best is a mere breath, *and that …How much less man that maggot, and the son of man, that worm, He will keep you in your false theology.

I see why you have said nothing in reply to the gist of the argument presented in my previous post. You cannot understand it (1 Cor 2:14ff).

At the end of writing the last paragraph, I took a break, and thought and prayed about what has been going on here. It is clear to me that I am involved in a Mt 7:6; 15:26 situation, and not just with this particular thread, but with the whole forum; I am wasting precious time here.

It has been an interesting discussion. Thank you for revealing yourself and your philosophy/false theology to me.

To God Be the Glory

P.S.: Your post #171 is further proof that I am wasting precious time here.

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

Explain how it is that Lewis calls evil a thing, but doesn’t mean that it is a thing?

Please, just read the book, and then you will know why you misunderstand C. S. Lewis.

Explain those verses. Satan is so obedient, that he seeks God’s permission to do what he wants to do.

Satan cannot do anything that God does not allow. Just as we cannot commit sin unless God allows us to commit sin. God allows us to exercise our free will for disobedince against his perfect will, but it is never God’s will that we commit sin. And God NEVER uses his omnipotence to force his created beings to be disobedient to him. If God ever did that even once, he would be unjust, and God never acts unjustly.

I do find it interesting that you would defend Satan as God’s humble and obedient servant in order to maintain your beliefs.

I see why you have said nothing in reply to the gist of the argument presented in my previous post.

I read your posts and I understand what you wrote. I didn’t comment on the correct things that you said, I only commented on where you went off track.

 

[sonseeker]

Matt 16_18:

Satan cannot do anything

that God does not allow. Just as we cannot commit sin unless God allows us to commit sin. God allows us to exercise our free will for disobedience against his perfect will, but it is never God’s will that we commit sin. And God NEVER uses his omnipotence to force his created beings to be disobedient to him. If God ever did that even once, he would be unjust, and God never acts unjustly.

I do find it interesting that you would defend Satan as God’s humble and obedient servant in order to maintain your beliefs.”Satan is innocent; it was that omnipotent God, who controls the whole of His creation, who made Satan do what He has done!” That is a defense of Satan.

On the other hand, in keeping with the point of my argument, I made it clear that Satan does not merely to what God allows, but that he is obedient to God’s will; it was God’s will that Satan should do to Job what he did to Job (notice that it is God who brings Job to Satan’s attention), and it was God’s will that Satan should sift Peter, as he sifted Peter. We too, cannot do anything other than what God has decreed.

In response to my request that you explain the remarks of Lewis with respect to evil as a thing, all you can say is “read the book.” I have read the book, many times; in fact, I have handed out numerous copies to acquaintances and non-acquaintances as a primer; it is brilliantly written, but is still a primer. Lewis himself humbly admits that he is a “layman.”

The answer I expected to my request would go something like this: “I can’t.”

To which my reply would be: “Good, now let’s move on.” That truthful answer would exhibit the humility, and integrity, that I am certain you possess.

Bill

 

[thessalonian]

” I made it clear that Satan does not merely to what God allows, but that he is obedient to God’s will; it was God’s will that Satan should do to Job what he did to Job (notice that it is God who brings Job to Satan’s attention), and it was God’s will that Satan should sift Peter, as he sifted Peter. We too, cannot do anything other than what God has decreed.

Bill

Mark 3
35] Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Hmmm. Satan is Jesus’s brother?

Matt.7

1. 
   ]21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does* the will** of my Father who is in heaven.
   
   You said satan did the will of God so I guess he get’s to enter the kingdom.
   
   Blessings

 

[Matt16_18]

thessalonian:

“Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Hmmm. Satan is Jesus’s brother?

• "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does** the will*** of my Father who is in heaven.

You said satan did the will of God so I guess he get’s to enter the kingdom.

LOL!

 

[Matt16_18]

sonseeker:

In response to my request that you explain the remarks of Lewis with respect to evil as a thing, all you can say is “read the book.” I have read the book, many times; in fact, I have handed out numerous copies to acquaintances and non-acquaintances as a primer; it is brilliantly written, but is still a primer. Lewis himself humbly admits that he is a “layman.”

And you are not a layman? Are you claiming that you have a better education that C.S. Lewis?

If you have a copy of Mere Christianity, then there is no need for me to copy the chapter “The Invasion” into this thread. Read that chapter and give me the quote that proves that Lewis thinks that evil is a “thing”. He doesn’t ever say this, and he never comes close to saying this. Lewis most certainly does not agree with you that evil is a “thing”.

I made it clear that Satan does not merely to what God allows, but that he is obedient to God’s will; it was God’s will that Satan should do to Job what he did to Job

Recall that I said Catholics make a distinction between God’s perfect will and God’s permissive will. It was God’s permissive will that Satan was allowed to test the faith of Job, (which is just another way of saying that God permitted Satan to test Job).

Catholics understand that nothing happens to us in life unless God permits it. But saying that God allows our faith to be tested through suffering, is not the same thing as saying that God causes us to sin, and less yet is that a confirmation that God is the source and cause of every evil in the world. God is perfectly just, and if he decides to test our faith, he is not being unjust in doing that.

The whole point of the Book of Job revolves around this question, “Why do righteous people suffer?” God never answers that question. In the end, God acknowledges that Job is a just man, and that Job has no business questioning why God allowed his faith to be tested.

The LORD then said to Job: Will we have arguing with the Almighty by the critic? Let him who would correct God give answer! … Gird up your loins now, like a man. I will question you, and you tell me the answers! Would you refuse to acknowledge my right? Would you condemn me that you may be justified?
Job 40

“Would you condemn me that you may be justified?” That is exactly what you are doing sonseeker - condemning God so that you might be justified by your blasphemous Calvinist-OSAS theology. You condemn God when you assert that you have no free will that allows you to be rebellious against God, and you condemn God when you accuse God of being the cause of all that is evil in the world.

 

[sonseeker]

Thessalonian and Matt 16_18:

Thessalonian:

Mark 3
35

] Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."

Hmmm. Satan is Jesus’s brother?

Matt.7

1. 
   ]21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does* the will** of my Father who is in heaven.
   
   You said satan did the will of God so I guess he get’s to enter the kingdom.
   
   Blessings** Ephesians 5:17**: So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
   
   Thessalonian, it is according to the predetermined counsel of God, decided in eternity, that He should use Eph 5:17 to correct you this day. Notice what God says about you: you are “foolish!” And, that is why I ignore your posts, and no longer respond to you. (I couldn’t resist this one, you have your chin stuck out so far.)
   
   Also, I included Jn 6:29, as God’s work and will are inextricably linked:
   
   John 6:29: Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
   
   1 Thessalonians 4:3: ***For this is the will of God, your sanctification…; ***
   
   The Lord predestined that on this day, I should be reminded of the next verse by your foolishness, Thessalonian.
   
   1 Peter 2:15: ***For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. ***
   
   Thessalonian it is not that you do not understand, but that you cannot (1 Cor 2:14ff).
   
   Bill

 

[Catholics4Life]

Hi there Bill, I know I am kind of jumping into this conversation late, but may I respectfully ask why your interpretation of Scripture is correct? I know it has been hashed out before by others, but I still like to hear from each person who insists that others do not properly understand Scripture. Thanks and God bless.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian and Matt 16_18:
Ephesians 5:17: So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

Thessalonian, it is according to the predetermined counsel of God, decided in eternity, that He should use Eph 5:17 to correct you this day. Notice what God says about you: you are “foolish!” And, that is why I ignore your posts, and no longer respond to you. (I couldn’t resist this one, you have your chin stuck out so far.)

Also, I included Jn 6:29, as God’s work and will are inextricably linked:

John 6:29: Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

1 Thessalonians 4:3: ***For this is the will of God, your sanctification…; ***

The Lord predestined that on this day, I should be reminded of the next verse by your foolishness, Thessalonian.

1 Peter 2:15: ***For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. ***

Thessalonian it is not that you do not understand, but that you cannot (1 Cor 2:14ff).

Bill

Gee Bill, you really know how to hurt a guy. Nice that you didn’t answer my question of how the devil did the will of God and still didn’t get the kingdom or wasn’t Jesus brother. Oh, I am sure if you put your mind to it you can distort your way out of any conundrum. But instead you choose the route of thinking you had the authority to rebuke me :nope: . No, the devil does not do the will of God Bill. Nor do sinners. But what they do works for the good of the saints and so brings about God’s will even when they are not doing it. Such talk as yours is foolishness but you are so entrenched in your heresy that you will not hear it.

Now Bill, I shall do what the scriptures call me to do of someone who curses me. Bless you Bill. I love ya man. Peace.

Blessings