Why should I believe?

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Start off with hope!

There is an equivalence of hope with faith as the hope becomes discernable on the horizon as a real possibility.

Take hints from nature - from the majesty of the cosmos to the amazing mysteries of the smallest of subatomic particles there is an ordered principal that seem to direct all things toward an objective purpose and end. Just because you see a few imperfections here and there does not mean that there is no God. Quite the contrary, ask youself HOW you come to think of them as perfections? Why do you even take offense at seeing a fellow human suffering and why are you not indifferent if we are just all animals who live and die and that’s it? Ask yourself why we are at the top of the intellectual food chain in all of the known living things on this planet and apparently, so far, all alone in all of the Universe. Life is ultra rare compared to the vastness of the Universe. Ask why me? Why do I get to live? Why am I here of all planets in the known Universe that have life on them?
Yes, nature is a good place to start. However, I still see crazy things happening.

I love astronomy and love looking at stars, constellations (I don’t believe in astrology), galaxies, etc. but when I see things like the two galaxies colliding into eachother in the constellation Corvus (also know as Antennae), I think sarcastically, oh, so that must be “God’s will” that those two galaxies must collide with eachother? Chaos. I thought God could do better than that?

Look at the picture of the galaxies: eastbayastro.org/articles/lore/corvus.htm
Don’t look at the crow because that’s myth and I hate myths. Only look at the NASA pic to know what I’m talking about. (As far as I’m concerned, that dang website should’ve posted the pic before the myth of Corvus!)

Just look at the probably-were-once-beautiful-galaxies-but-are-now-wrecked Antennae and think, how the freak did that happen? God is perfect and he let’s something like that happen? And you’re telling me he created the universe? Did God create the laws of physics and now look what happened!

Or why the freak should a tick want to land on a dog and suck it’s blood? That’s the will of God? To let the dog die because some stupid tick (that a perfect God created) decided to suck the blood? I’m sure that would “tick” any dog owner off!

Think about it! The owner worked hard to get his income to pay for that dog and now look what happened! If only the owner knew what was going to happen before he bought the dog, they wouldn’t reconsidered and bought eau de parfum instead with that income.

Or why should there be disgusting parasites that actually live IN or ON another living thing? That’s way gross and pathetic. Oh, is that God’s will that that animal (or in rare cases, humans) die because some worm was laying a billion eggs and they all hatched inside the gut and now the organs are damaged? Is that how God created nature to be? What gives that worm the right to live in guts?
Why the freak would a parasitic worm even come to the “mind of God”.

What a beautiful concept as well.

Or why should living things when they die smell when they start to decay? Is that how God decided? I’ve heard that things smell because of sinful humankind. Whatever! I’ve driven home and saw a dead fawn lying off the side of the road because some person - with the free will of being out and about - killed the poor thing. It was the worst smell that the universe could even come up with…so did the fawn sin? Get real.
Now start conjecturing - if there was a Creator - who could make such a magnificent and many splendored Universe and be so powerful - why would he permit suffering and pain or accidents of nature? Would that be cruel or indifference or would it be an invitation to you to see if you could go help remedy the imperfections and maybe figure out why imperfect things happen. Start thinking though it all as you are doing here then seeing where your own ideas of revulsion to suffering come from to start with. The clear pattern is that learn by contrast of right from wrong - we intrinsically know when something is ordered or disordered and breaks pattern with the natural order. All one has to do then is see that the natural order follows a grand design or universal order that implies incredible intelligence.
Why should there even be disorders anyways? What good does that do? If there should be a natural order, then it should stay natural. If it’s not going to, then don’t have a natural order in the first place.

Speaking of incredible intelligence, do you believe that there are advanced intelligents somewhere else in the universe? Like do you believe there are “other people” on another planet in the galaxy or in another galaxy?
As for natural evolution - that is an acceptable belief in Catholicism if we see it as a method that God uses. But we just don’t see a lot of trial-and-error evolution in nature. Not a lot of forensic evidence where nature “tries one thing” sees how it works then backs up and tries something else. We see too much specialization of completely integrative systems in animals (spider webs, venom development, defensive appendages that all integrate to serve the creature and could not have independently evolved as individual systems etc.).
So here we go again. If it makes sense to your mind that God does something this way or that way, then you’ll believe it as a belief in your Catholicism! I thought religions thought that evolution was an insult!

So now you’re saying that Catholics believe in evolution ONLY IF God has something to do with it??? “Sure, as long as God used evolution, yes, we’ll believe in evolution - as long as God has something to do with it!” is what I’m getting at. Am I correct?
Anyway - we should first hope that there is a God then from there come to perfect that hope and have faith that it is so.
And how do you know that God is not an invention of man? Why should man worship something? Why is there a real need for a creator?

Wow, it’s amazing how there were many different beliefs in different gods so many years ago yet those civilizations back then couldn’t believe in the same God as you. How come suddenly people starting believing in a different God (which is yours)?
 
Hello Chanel 🙂

I believe one reason it is so hard for you to believe, is because you dont want it maybe?

Have you ever, with a full heart, got on your knees and prayed to God to come into your life?

Keep in mind, you can do this, and not have your heart into it. Even after that, if you do fully commit and try to do this, you still will not find every answer you want. I sure wish I knew a few answers myself 😦 However I have to accept that I will only get answers to things he wants me to know.

However, since I HAVE got on my knees, and prayed for him to enter my life, he did. Since then, it wasnt a question of believing in God, because I know that is real. Once you do that, you have to do like the rest of us, and just have faith.

That is how so many people can give their hearts to God. They asked, and they received. Even if he gives us just enough to know he is real, its all that most people have.

Believe me, I suffer every week BECAUSE I believe. Its not easy.
 
I am no more a fanatic than you are stupid. I am willing to be called such if that is what it takes to convince you.

And , no, my son-in-law wasn’t poking fun at me. I think I made him a bit angry for putting hm on the spot. But, we love each other dearly, and, we have frequent conversations of this sort.

Obviously, you are quite intelligent. I have found most aeithiests to be of amazing intellect.

Why would God put up His own Son as a ransome to save such a rotten bunch of humanity? Our concept of “God” is triune, which I am sure you know about. So, God actually offered Himself up as that gift to save us all from ourselves. He knew that he would, at that point, give up the divine nature and be just fully human in order to accomplish that.

“No greater love has a man but to lay his life down willingly for his friends”-Jesus

“Love one another as I have loved you”-Jesus

We can be evil, but we have a love within that shines through. it shined through when the firemen rushed into the Towers, along with a priest, the first casualty, Caught on film.

It showes when a police officer takes a bullet protecting the life of a criminal from being assainated

It shows when a brother undergoes life threatening surgery to provide a part of his liver to his sister.

Now, any of us, believers, pagan, jew, islamic, agnostics, and aeithiests are capable of such heroics.

So much more is the sacrifice that God made. So that when you die, you have a choice to where you will go.

Yes, i know that you “believe”, trust, that you will rot away. There is not eternity. There is no God.

But i must try. But, I know that sometimes all a person can do is plant the seeds and walk away.

I still pray you decide before you die. Please do not be offended. i must do what is the right thing to do. i do not want you just to rot.
 
Quite a few people have had life experiences that make them question God. And find Him wanting.

And quite a few people have had the same experiences and yet they believe. So it can’t be just ‘life’ that causes the questioning. It must be something beyond simply what is perceived or experienced, else the same ‘result’ would hold true for both groups, not just one.

It’s puzzling I imagine for both sides, especially if neither has experienced what it’s like for the other. I’m thinking especially of the many young people who have perhaps gone through religious ed classes and have never been able to believe, not even as young children. They can say, “Oh yes, I was brought up as a Christian and I know the teachings” and one thinks, well, they did experience Christianity but it failed them". . .but one would be wrong. Many, so many, young people today never experienced Christianity at all, and so they aren’t rejecting it–how can they reject what they never knew?–but are instead choosing to embrace a ‘rationalist’ view because deep down, that view WAS ‘what they knew’ from the start.

More often the 'questioning Catholic" at least, if he/she leaves the faith having been truly aware OF the teachings, becomes a member of another faith. IOW, it isn’t Christianity he questions, it’s Catholicism.

But examples of the Christian who actually knew and practiced Christianity actually becoming an unbeliever are much fewer. They exist, but when they do, the unbeliever usually becomes a very MILITANT soul. . .IOW, they embrace their unbelief as a real BELIEF. In effect, they are substituting "unbelief’ and worshipping THAT as their god. Whereas those who truly did not know or understand their Christian faith even if they went to class (hating every minute, usually) are truly (if mistakenly) sure that they really DO question belief. They are seldom militant about it, more often ‘pitying’ the believer rather than being angry or vilifying as the militant unbeliever is.
 
This is a very interesting thread, Chanel. I hope you can get your questions answered. I have many of the same questions. Similar ones too.

Tagging this thread so I can come back and see the answers. 🙂
 
“unbelievers” (like believers) are not cut from the same cloth. Each is unique. The argument, proof, rationale, whatever is going to be different in each person because while one person may be an ‘unbeliever’ because he never had known belief, another may be an unbeliever because he was ‘denied’ something, yet another because he was ‘given’ something ‘unfairly’, still another because he sees the ‘disconnect’ between the idea of ‘God is good’ and the reality of “much of human experience is evil” and cannot make the limited human reason which is all that he knows of himself make sense of the two.

So one can’t just say, “Believe because” (even though once one does believe, that is all that is necessary) for the person himself/herself has to be willing to believe. And ‘willing to believe’ means being willing to set aside one’s ‘own’ judgment and accepting that there is a Being of far greater judgment. Most people are very proud of their own accomplishments and very unwilling to accept ANY authority, least of all one that seems ‘wrong’ by the limited human standards of this age, or one that is ‘supernatural’ and not just natural.

But until a person has the humility to say, "Help my unbelief’ and to truly mean it, they are stuck–and they have chosen to be stuck (again, for many reasons and I’m not implying that there is some ‘master’ reason that all unbelievers use. there isn’t.) And what we can do is model true Christian living and pray, and to give out true Christian thought.

If more of us (myself included) acted as Christ taught, and stopped putting ‘ourselves’ into the teaching, more unbelievers would become believers. It’s Christ who calls, not us. . .and when we call without Him, our efforts will go unrewarded.

So I’m going to suggest to Chanel (great name, I’m a fan of the suit and the perfume myself) that her even asking the question of ‘why" is a great first start. To suggest reading the Bible (or rereading) with a commentary or concordance. To listen to Father Corapi, say, or Bishop Sheen, or to read Catholicism for Dummies (emphatically NOT the Idiot’s guide). To learn the rosary prayers and just say them, quietly, thinking about Jesus and His life. You know the answers as to why you DON’T believe but I want you to stop giving the answers right now. Right now you’re in defense mode, the ‘yes but’ kind of dialogue that is really you listening, in disbelief, and responding with your monologue instead of actually thinking, “If what they say about X is true, then what does that mean?” So just think about one thing at a time (instead of assembling a whole list of “these are the 100,000 reasons I don’t believe”). Like, "If God is love, and I’m not going to rebut with “if He’s so loving why are there wars yadda yadda”–If God is love, what does that mean? No, "he can’t be loving because of x, y, and z’. That isn’t considering, you’ve already made judgment. No, I want you to truly think and answer, “If God is love, what does that mean?” You can’t ‘talk’ with God if you don’t know Him. So get to know Him. And God bless.
 
The answer to the problem of evil is this:

God gave us free will. We choose to follow or we choose not to. The terrible things you speak of are the effects of evil humans. God does hate evil. That’s why he casts the evil into hell, unless they repent.

This ties in with the concept of hell. Many atheists say “Well, how could an all-loving God have hell?”. God is still loving, because He became incarnate, and suffered so that we could all be forgiven and have eternal life. So even the most evil can be forgiven if they repent(although they may have some time to spend in purgatory).

But the better question to ask yourself is this: “How can a completely just God allow unrepentant evil people to have eternal happiness, while people work to be good their whole lives?”

And why does God give us the free choice between good and evil? Because these choices determine your eternal fate. Isn’t your fate for *eternity *something that you should have the choice of?

Pax tecum.
 
Hi Chanel,

God allows bad and evil things to happen because he can handle them.
Catholic Faith states that God wouldn’t allow any evil to happen unless he can make good out of it.
And this is where he almighty power is. The fact that of all evils you see, God conquers them.
The Catechism teaches us that God’s almighty power is expressed in forgiving our sins.
And this is the mystery of his goodness and his greatness. We are like kids. Because of his love, he allow us to be free, to do as we will, even to turn our back on him. But whenever we decide to change, he has enough power to heal us and restore us in friendship with him.

For all harms done to ‘innocent’ people, God is not indifferent. Who are we to know what is innocence anyway. We judge according to human standard. But God knows everything, he knows that in everything you and I see, there is justice. Even when true innocents are suffering, from God’s point of view, and from eternity, there is justice.

You can think of the worse thing you have ever seen, the worse injustice. Yes, God allowed it to happen because he knows everything, and he knows what is on the other side where we can’t see. He knows what he can do there, what he will do tomorrow, or what he can and does in secret where we can’t see and feel and sense with our other senses.

Sometimes we think of people who suffer and die in great sufferring and sadness and we say ‘How can a good God allow that?’ But this is a prideful question. Because we assume to know what is on the other side of death. In a way, we presume to know everything and therefore we are capable of pronouncing a judgment on the matter.

Believing is an act of humility. We recognize that we are finite creatures, that we don’t really know much. Our knowledge of reality is so tiny that we basically rely on Faith, even when we can’t tell that we believe.

At the beginning someone pointed to you that you can’t do any good unless you believe in goodness. This is a small faith in God. Because is the ‘absolute Good’. Perhaps you can’t recognize it but it is.
Faith grows. At some point we start noticing it. As it grow, we even start to notice its form…it grows stronger and stronger …

But it can also be wounded, and suffer, etc. If it is not nourished, it can stop growing. It can be sick and even die/be extenguished like a flame… Faith is the life of the soul.

So ‘Why should you believe’.

The idea that you don’t 'believe is relative. There are things you believe already, and they are things you don’t believe yet. Perhaps your faith is small and frozen somewhere, not growing, and all you need is for it to grow. You are likely asking ‘why should I believe in x’. X meaning the next thing that you don’t make sense of yet. Perhaps it is God as seen by Catholicism…

God bless
 
Re: Why should I believe?

Because you want to. That’s the only reason, unless you are one of the rare few who has experienced a theophany (think Moses and the burning bush) or an exterior locution (think Marian apparitions).

Free will only explains moral evil, it does not explain natural evil (the parasite example you gave is a classic argument). The only answer to the question of natural evil I have seen here is in the form of another question “how would you have designed the universe without pain and suffering?”. I don’t know, I’m not omniscient.

If you’re honest, you will admit that the world (and cosmos) behaves exactly like you would expect it to if there was no God.

Personally, I’m still waiting to hear one good reason why I should believe in a supreme deity.
 
That is like asking what time is it when you are traveling on a space ship that is going near the speed of light. But you are asking the question to a person back on earth.

Some things will never be answered. hence faith.

you have faith that mass and energy are forms of one another. Where did the first form come from? Something come from nothing? something always existed?

The answer could be God.
 
Re: Why should I believe?

Because you want to. That’s the only reason, unless you are one of the rare few who has experienced a theophany (think Moses and the burning bush) or an exterior locution (think Marian apparitions).

Free will only explains moral evil, it does not explain natural evil (the parasite example you gave is a classic argument). The only answer to the question of natural evil I have seen here is in the form of another question “how would you have designed the universe without pain and suffering?”. I don’t know, I’m not omniscient.

If you’re honest, you will admit that the world (and cosmos) behaves exactly like you would expect it to if there was no God.

Personally, I’m still waiting to hear one good reason why I should believe in a supreme deity.
Redhen, I think you have a negative feedback loop going on here where you are back-feeding and regressing your own output from your secular-philosophy reasoning into your linear (name removed by moderator)ut stream and getting a solution that is really a tautology to what you WANT to believe.

This statement is a fallacy: Free will only explains moral evil, it does not explain natural evil (the parasite example you gave is a classic argument).

Freewill only explains moral evil if you are looking to short-cut the logic on the first apparent exception to hold on to one’s own theology of disbelief. Dig deeper.

You need to consider that at least some natural evil is a consequence of moral evil. In Catholic theology every small or large sin effects EVERYTHING else in some greater or lessor way. In particular sin effects one’s relationship with God, with self, with neighbor and with the material world. Disorder increases with sin and offense and progressively cascades the whole system (like a big bang cloud of dark matter right behind the primordial big bang). If this is Catholic belief is true then we will see progressively greater decline and degradation in our environment (natural environmental and celestial processes will go wild) and in our social systems and societies.

Some would say this is EXACTLY what we are seeing in current times. And its very easy to see this in the bible as various literary styles show man’s life-span rapidly declining from Adam’s 900 years to reach the current 70 years or so. Even the severity of kinds of sin and frequency increases - Cain horrifies all of the known human existence when he does the unthinkable and murders Abel out of jealousy that God accepted Abel’s worship over Cain’s. From here - every sin imaginable occurs - fornication, adultury, deceptions, wars etc. We eventually get to the Great Deluge (the story of Noah’s Ark) - the natural cause and effect relationship where Nature itself rebels against man and essentially says ‘enough - I can’t suffer to serve man’s corruption to my own shame since it implicates me’ (not to sound pantheistic or Gaea oriented here - but to express a concept).

We see this same imagery in the Book of Revelation which many view as prophetic on end times. At the peek of man’s decline the stars of heaven fall from the sky and there are great earthquakes and manifest environmental disturbances (floods, fires, winds etc.) - even fire from heaven etc.

This all supports what we call the mystery of inequity - why God let’s these things happen if He is in control and greater than evil and why he tolerates it. And in Catholic theology this is too sublime to fully know this side of heaven but it seems to somehow serve God (and benefit us ultimately) and brings forth Divine Mercy to man. Trough the consequence of sin God to manifest a greater good and reveals a divine attribute and potent spirital power - Divine Mercy.

You don’t believe in angels but in our theology the Angels were only given an instant of creation to decide for or against God. As perfect intelligent and spiritual creatures they do not need a temporal reasoning process. They just “know” instantly all aspects of their reality and know all consequences of decisions and choices. These being so mighty had to resolve as a first primal decision the reason for the existence and its implication of servitude to their Creator. In that creative instant they had to elect to be for or against their God - this was their exercise of freewill creatures. A third decided against God and valued the prerogative of individual choice in all matters independent of concern for Divine Will or natural obligation to worship God – even when those choices had negative and undesirable personal consequences. They held individuality of will to be superior to serving God - even if that meant a greater purpose and happiness. They were simply “jealous” of God who would only permit His creatures who through freewill were committed to serve the greater “good” to be joined to Him in eternal beatitude. They valued the freedom to be seperate as “their own free entities” over service and obedience to God or anything else. So, rather than serve and in full knowledge of the consequences they elected disobedience and hell out of pure spite, envy and contempt. These angels had NO opportunity for God to manifest Mercy since such their perfect spiritual intellect can not change its mind once its decision is made - the choices are all the same since the there is nothing new to consider and they had access to all knowledge God gave them. They can never again change their decision and many are in hell and many are here in the natural world working to destroy souls to recruit eternal thralls and to hurt God.

But humans are reasoning creatures - we must “process and consider” things over time. Because of this we are given a “lifetime” of 70 years on average to “decide” to serve God or not. We are to discern our environment and take the hints of existence and nature as our (name removed by moderator)uts to see God or just ourselves.

All humans, being part of the divine image share a common shock and indignation when confronted with the many injustices and cruelties we see in the world at large. It is ironic that this drives some to the conclusion “there can be no God since He would not permit this”. In fact it is because there is a God that these things must happen since there is always suffering when Good and Evil are brought into proximity to each other. If there was no God we would be indifferent to the sufferings of each other - just as those in hell could care less of those next them who are screaming and suffering right along with them. There is no camaraderie or empathy in hell - just self-centered existence and the self-centered pain that is principally the pain of what is eternally lost to self rather than any empathetic pain for what was left eternally vacant in those missed prior associates who elevated themselves & passed them by in eternity (but who God provided substitution for).

I could say a lot more here but am running long and will stop.

James
 
Re: Why should I believe?

Because you want to. That’s the only reason, unless you are one of the rare few who has experienced a theophany (think Moses and the burning bush) or an exterior locution (think Marian apparitions).

Free will only explains moral evil, it does not explain natural evil (the parasite example you gave is a classic argument). The only answer to the question of natural evil I have seen here is in the form of another question “how would you have designed the universe without pain and suffering?”. I don’t know, I’m not omniscient.

If you’re honest, you will admit that the world (and cosmos) behaves exactly like you would expect it to if there was no God.

Personally, I’m still waiting to hear one good reason why I should believe in a supreme deity.
Peace be with you redhen.

I’m going to be straight with you. I am offended by your comment. However, in charity I hope that we can address this. The reason 85% of the world believes in a deity is not because they “want to”. That’s *exactly *the same as saying “atheists don’t believe in God because they don’t want to”. Do you not find that offensive, or at least completely inaccurate? Why do you think it would be different for us?

Obviously I disagree with you. However, I am able to retain a certain amount of respect, and I don’t shove it off as though I know people hearts by just saying “because they want to”. Just because you don’t accept the same proofs which we do, it doesn’t mean we aren’t sincere. I am sure you are sincere in your agnosticism. We are sincere in our theism.

Pax tecum.
 
You need to consider that at least some natural evil is a consequence of moral evil.
But morality only applies to rational beings (humans), how can you apply morality to the animal kingdom, geology, weather, etc.?
…murders Abel out of jealousy that God accepted Abel’s worship over Cain’s. From here - every sin imaginable occurs - fornication, adultury, deceptions, wars etc.
So homo neanderthalis did not commit murder, deception, etc?
 
I’m going to be straight with you. I am offended by your comment.
No malice or offense was intended.
The reason 85% of the world believes in a deity is not because they “want to”. That’s *exactly *the same as saying “atheists don’t believe in God because they don’t want to”. Do you not find that offensive, or at least completely inaccurate? Why do you think it would be different for us?
I don’t know why atheists believe the things they do. I cannot prove or disprove the existence of a supreme deity.
Just because you don’t accept the same proofs which we do, it doesn’t mean we aren’t sincere. I am sure you are sincere in your agnosticism. We are sincere in our theism.
But there are no objective proofs for God. For myself, I can sincerely say “I don’t know”.
 
I’m currently reading a biology book and couldn’t believe how there could be flaws and errors when it comes to DNA and “bad” mutations that happen. Oops, did God make a mistake when genetic defects and bad mutations happen? Guess he isn’t that perfect after all.
“Bad” is a matter of perspective. Are the quanta that make up our DNA unhappy about their situation when a bad mutation occurs? The atoms? The molecules?

Just because we brand something isn’t beneficial to use doesn’t make it “bad” on an absolute standard.
 
How can you say you hate something then allow it to happen? That’s like saying I hate liver but I’m going to order it at a restaurant anyways.
No, it’s like you hating liver but allowing the person at the next table to order it anyways.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
No, it’s like you hating liver but allowing the person at the next table to order it anyways.

– Mark L. Chance.
“Bad” is a matter of perspective. Are the quanta that make up our DNA unhappy about their situation when a bad mutation occurs? The atoms? The molecules?

Just because we brand something isn’t beneficial to use doesn’t make it “bad” on an absolute standard.
Interesting thread, with a lot of good reading. I can’t help myself however, in saying, that even as a devout Catholic, I struggle GREATLY with evil\bad stuff happening. I understand free will. I understand that good can come from evil, but I DON’T understand how anyone, even a loving God, can perceive any good coming from the extreme situations. In example, I simply cannot fathom the good that comes from a child being raped, tortured and murdered by a sadistic lunatic. These types of things, I openly admit, cause me to question the very existence of the God I worship. So much so, that at times, I’m really not sure what I believe anymore. 😊
 
I understand that good can come from evil, but I DON’T understand how anyone, even a loving God, can perceive any good coming from the extreme situations. In example…
As terrible as things like the Holocaust, the Rwanda genocide, and cases of individual evil are, this can be answered by free will. What I don’t understand is how an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God would use processes like macro-evolution to create beings in His own image (rational/spiritual).

The untold pain and distress of numberless creatures over millions of years, just to arrive at homo sapiens sapiens.

I think doubt is a good thing, it leads to honest questioning and examination of one’s beliefs.
 
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