Why should I believe?

[Hospitaler]

Chanel (and others), let me throw my 2 cents worth in. Up until very recently, I was a non-believer like you are. When I would ask questions I would get a lot of the same answers you are seeing here. What my Catholic brothers and sisters forget sometimes when they answer your questions is that you do not believe in God. So when they provide “Christian” answers to your question, it doesn’t register with you. Telling you to read something in the Bible or the Catholic Catechism isn’t much different than answering a Bhuddist the same way. The point is, if you don’t believe in God, how can we expect you to believe in Jesus, Moses, Mary, the Saints, the Popes, etc, etc. You need to discover the truth about God first. Then you will be able to understand the rest.

Let me offer you a place to read some of the proofs for God’s existence. I understand the proofs but I do not have the time or vocabulary to get into them in detail. This is a site for some of the writings and audio recordings of Dr. Peter Kreeft. He is a well known Catholic and Philosophy professor who has written many articles and books on many of the questions you have. Even though he is Catholic, his answers are not “christian heavy”.

peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm

Read the articles and give it a chance. You may be surprised by what you read. Believe me, I was when my conversion began. After I realized the truth of God’s existence, the rest fell into place. I’m not sure if I felt more happy or defeated when faced with the truth. Either way, it has opened up a whole new world to me.

Please don’t be discouraged with my fellow Catholics. We mean well and want to help someone asking questions any way we can. We sometimes forget that using explanations from our faith do not register with someone outside the faith. (I have been on BOTH sides of that)

Read these articles. Do some deep inner searching. Keep asking your questions and find the answer. Don’t expect others to be able to “hand you” the answers. It won’t happen. Until YOU do the work, thinking and searching, you will never find the answer that finally hits deep inside. The site I offer above is a great place to start. If nothing else, it should get you thinking.

God Bless and Good Luck (I can still wish the best for you in my way can’t I?)

 

[rotlex]

As terrible as things like the Holocaust, the Rwanda genocide, and cases of individual evil are, this can be answered by free will. What I don’t understand is how an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God would use processes like macro-evolution to create beings in His own image (rational/spiritual).

The untold pain and distress of numberless creatures over millions of years, just to arrive at homo sapiens sapiens.

I think doubt is a good thing, it leads to honest questioning and examination of one’s beliefs.

I agree, and hence, it is why I struggle so much with this, as I’m sure that many do. My frustration comes from the way I can bounce back and forth with my faith\beliefs. I am devoted, even when in doubt, but is it normal to at times think that believing in such a God is as ridiculous as believing in, pardon the overused examples, but the tooth fairy, santa, zeus, or any man made “god”?

Again, I reiterate how often I struggle with these thoughts, and wonder at times if I’d simply be better of NOT worrying about it at all, and just enjoy life!

 

[redhen]

The study of philosophy and religions is never a waste of time. There’s a quote I found from a modern Taoist writer that resonates with me.

“Intelligence exceeding genius hasn’t come.
Titanic strength hasn’t come.
Beauty to attract lovers hasn’t come.
Visitations from gods haven’t come.
Freedom from weariness hasn’t come.
An end to vexing annoyances hasn’t come.
Great wealth hasn’t come.
Fame hasn’t come.
Unlimited understanding of others hasn’t come.
Supernatural powers haven’t come.
The skill to spontaneously heal hasn’t come.
The gift of prophesy hasn’t come.
None of these things have come,
Yet I would not forsake this spiritual path.”

Deng Ming-Dao

Oddly enough, I found this quote on a Youtube site that has a collection of video clips from the old Kung Fu tv series that I used to watch as a child. At the time I had no idea that these wise sayings came from Taoism and Buddhism. All I knew was that they sounded true and that I wished I had a teacher like Master Po who could teach me these concepts, and how to kick butt like Bruce Lee, lol. youtube.com/user/yinyangnature

 

[CentralFLJames]

Interesting thread, with a lot of good reading. I can’t help myself however, in saying, that even as a devout Catholic, I struggle GREATLY with evil\bad stuff happening. I understand free will. I understand that good can come from evil, but I DON’T understand how anyone, even a loving God, can perceive any good coming from the extreme situations. In example, I simply cannot fathom the good that comes from a child being raped, tortured and murdered by a sadistic lunatic. These types of things, I openly admit, cause me to question the very existence of the God I worship. So much so, that at times, I’m really not sure what I believe anymore.

First of all let me make a correction in how we believe it happened. Good did not come out of Evil - Good is preternatural and is primal and eternal.

To help you here we must examine the nature of evil.
Evil is of 3 kinds: physical, moral, and metaphysical

It is evident that all evil is essentially negative and not positive; i.e. it consists not in the acquisition of anything, but in the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. Growth seeks to advance and perfect. If one is not growing one is dieing.

I note that some believe that the apparent disorder observable in nature is really no disorder, since it is part of a definite scheme, and precisely fulfills the intention of the Creator; it may therefore be counted as a relative perfection rather than an imperfection and our discernment or judgement may be the evil since it is coming from a narrow and static self-interest point of view. We don’t know that what we see as bad or disordered does not serve a higher purpose - even a purposes that brings us a higher ordered perfection to a specific objective end which is better than we can now discern. In essence to make judgements on matters that are way beyond our depth is arrogant and dangerous and stupid. What we perceive as natural evil could really in the objective reality (which natural un-illumined man can not fully know) be constructive parables or analogs and signs of underlying spiritual truths that the Creator is teaching us by example through sensory and rationalizing channels; road signs along the cosmic highway to enlightenment so to speak. We should find humility in our lack of full comprehension/discernment and rather than jump to hasty judgements be compelled therefor to trust as a default since it is beyond our ability to change in the macro sense. But or condition we find ourselves in and our own peculiar nature does incite us to want to intervene in the practical instances to help “to remedy suffering and pain where we can”. We should consider that we are in fact integral instruments to a Divine Purpose and take our concern for the imperfections we see as the very thing that is our seeded program since it alarms us so. Therefor I consider these things as a lesson that maps well to the truths that I hold that roughly translates as:

1. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”
2. “What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you, attend to; for what is hidden is not your concern. With what is too much for you meddle not, when shown things beyond human understanding.”
3. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways”.
4. “I have a lot more to tell you, but that would be too much for you now.”

The problem with observant evil is that it is a strictly a metaphysical one; i.e. it cannot be solved by a mere experimental analysis of the actual conditions from which evil results. It is beyond our human means to fathom - it envelops us from within and from without and is like a substance that can infect us or be coped with it and avoided with its competing substance - goodness. All we need to do is co-join the better to our will rather than be a partner with the worse - though accidents of intention and ignorance must arise.

Christian religion is the best system for reconnoitering evil but others have tried with mixed results (e.g. Zoroastrianism). But Christian thought does not belabor an exhaustive exploration of its nature since our focus is on understanding the quadrant of Good and our expectation of an objective end in Goodness - rather than a deep think on the sublime terminus of evil. We are made to be optimistic not pessimistic therefor it becomes serving of evil to understand too much and focus’s in the wrong quadrant and this focus can be become idolatry and actually invite evil through familiarity and even through a perverse sense of fairness (in fact God’s Justice is held to be fair and so even a veneer of thought reveals that evil is entitled to those it wins through elective choice or through indifference and apathy of disbelief in the greater Good).

There are two general problems for Catholicism to address with respect to Evil:

1. Why did God, foreseeing that his creatures would use the gift of free will for their own injury, did not either abstain from creating them, or in some way safeguard their free will from misuse, or else deny them the gift altogether?
2. Why God should have chosen to create, when creation was in no way needful for His own perfection?

St. Thomas answers thus:
*

1. To the first St. Thomas replies (in C. G., II, xxviii) that God cannot change His mind, since the Divine will is free from the defect of weakness or mutability. Such mutability would, it should be remarked, be a defect in the Divine nature (and therefore impossible), because if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any one or more creatures, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable given our premise of knowledge of Divine attribution.
2. To the 2nd St. Thomas answers that God’s object in creating is Himself; He creates in order to manifest his own goodness, power, and wisdom, and is pleased with that reflection or similitude of Himself in which the goodness of creation consists. God’s pleasure is the one supremely perfect motive for action, alike in God Himself and in His creatures; not because of any need, or inherent necessity, in the Divine nature (C. G., I, xxviii; II, xxiii), but because God is the source, centre, and object, of all existence.*

[cont]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from prior]

Bottom Line - Creation is good and it all pleases God even though some creatures pervert and mis-allocate their freewill but are inconsequential to the objective end and those hostile or indifferent to the Creator’s intentions are completely subsumed and rendered inconsequential to the greater glory and the higher order purpose that “the elect” (those created creatures who strive to cooperate with Divine Destiny and who’s destinies are made as elective choices to be part of that Divine Plan) are to attain to. God simply wants to share His Love and empower those who will like to be more like Him and to have the ultimate freedom any created creature can have (which we Catholics know to be Christ like). That has profound implications for an elevated humanity that is not constrained by physical existence and will be able to enter in and out of the material world at any time or place and in the spiritual world and participate as an integral of a perfected and new material world to come. I project the conclusion that evil becomes the enabler for God to grant us a greater nature to overcome it and subdue it and “be all we can be”.

The ancient Christian prayer: “O Necessary Sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer” I think sums it all up. By falling, God to balance the scales so to speak lifts us up to a higher human nature which is divine-human or “Christ Like”. Those who trust in God and do not despair are perfected but those who reject God or who are indifferent God get the free gift of life and all they seek in this temporal world but must suffer the eternal bitterness of knowing they will never “be all they could have been” or have any part in the new order that God is preparing for those who trusted in Him and cooperated with Him.

There is a lot of interesting read on the matter here: New Advent: Evil

James

 

[redhen]

It is evident that all evil is essentially negative and not positive; i.e. it consists not in the acquisition of anything, but in the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. Growth seeks to advance and perfect. If one is not growing one is dieing.

Natural evil is necessary for perfection? How is pain, suffering, distress, loss necessary for perfection? How are natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people, to say nothing of non-human species necessary for perfection? I’m stumped.

In essence to make judgements on matters that are way beyond our depth is arrogant and dangerous and stupid. What we perceive as natural evil could really in the objective reality (which natural un-illumined man can not fully know) be constructive parables or analogs and signs of underlying spiritual truths that the Creator is teaching us by example through sensory and rationalizing channels; road signs along the cosmic highway to enlightenment so to speak.

I judge these disastrous horrors to be bad, I guess that makes me stupid. Nice. Constructive parables, analogies? Wow, so all the relatives of those killed in earthquakes, floods, fires etc are now enlightened? Wow.

We should find humility in our lack of full comprehension/discernment and rather than jump to hasty judgements be compelled therefor to trust as a default since it is beyond our ability to change in the macro sense.

Lack of full comprehension? Hundreds of thousands of people killed by earthquakes, floods, famine and fire; what is there not to comprehend? These are natural events that effect all living creatures in their swath. What am I not comprehending?

But or condition we find ourselves in and our own peculiar nature does incite us to want to intervene in the practical instances to help “to remedy suffering and pain where we can”.

Right, this is empathy. Nothing spiritual or mystical about it.

1. “Apart from Me you can do nothing”
2. “What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you, attend to; for what is hidden is not your concern. With what is too much for you meddle not, when shown things beyond human understanding.”
3. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways”.
4. “I have a lot more to tell you, but that would be too much for you now.”

Ah yes, who are we to judge the ways of God. That’s the lesson Job was supposed to learn. In other words, we don’t know why God has created a world with these natural horrors.

It is beyond our human means to fathom - it envelops us from within and from without and is like a substance that can infect us or be coped with it and avoided with its competing substance - goodness.

This is why we have professional psychologists to help deal with these horrors.

All we need to do is co-join the better to our will rather than be a partner with the worse - though accidents of intention and ignorance must arise.

I have no idea what this means.

Christian religion is the best system for reconnoitering evil but others have tried with mixed results (e.g. Zoroastrianism).

Every religion has their own explanation for evils. Why is Christianity the best?

But Christian thought does not belabor an exhaustive exploration of its nature since our focus is on understanding the quadrant of Good and our expectation of an objective end in Goodness - rather than a deep think on the sublime terminus of evil.

Don’t worry, be happy.

(in fact God’s Justice is held to be fair and so even a veneer of thought reveals that evil is entitled to those it wins through elective choice or through indifference and apathy of disbelief in the greater Good).

Wow, so thinking about these natural horrors can make me evil. Nice.

St. Thomas answers thus:

1. To the first St. Thomas replies (in C. G., II, xxviii) that God cannot change His mind, since the Divine will is free from the defect of weakness or mutability. Such mutability would, it should be remarked, be a defect in the Divine nature (and therefore impossible), because if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any one or more creatures, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy–a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable given our premise of knowledge of Divine attribution.

Pure speculation. How would anyone know the traits of a supreme deity. This is just so much straw.

1. To the 2nd St. Thomas answers that God’s object in creating is Himself; He creates in order to manifest his own goodness, power, and wisdom, and is pleased with that reflection or similitude of Himself in which the goodness of creation consists. God’s pleasure is the one supremely perfect motive for action, alike in God Himself and in His creatures; not because of any need, or inherent necessity, in the Divine nature (C. G., I, xxviii; II, xxiii), but because God is the source, centre, and object, of all existence.

Goodness of creation? The life of most organisms with a nervous systems consists of pain, hunger, and finally death.

 

[leopolis1]

Hi,
Same old story - there’s evil, people lie, steal and kill each other so there’s no God. It’s not like that. There’s evil in this world because God gave us freedom and some people use their freedom in a wrong way and don’t obey the commandments given by God. I think you should look at yourself first and ask yourself a question: what have YOU done to make this earth a better place? Stop complaining and blaming God and just do something
God helped His children in countless situations and it means he’s not indifferent. Just look at those miraculous healings:
youtube.com/watch?v=6MA81BEU06k

What do you think about it?
The existence of genetic defects doesn’t mean that God is imperfect, it just means that genetic defects happen They could be caused by many different factors. Don’t expect this world to be perfect, It’s not and never will be.
We are mortal because everything that surrounds us is temporal, only heaven and hell will be eternal. The earth and everything else will cease to exist some day, that’s how it is. If we wanna get to heaven we have to die first, there’s no other way.
God bless!

 

[redhen]

Bottom Line - Creation is good and it all pleases God even though some creatures pervert and mis-allocate their freewill but are inconsequential to the objective end and those hostile or indifferent to the Creator’s intentions are completely subsumed and rendered inconsequential to the greater glory and the higher order purpose that “the elect” (those created creatures who strive to cooperate with Divine Destiny and who’s destinies are made as elective choices to be part of that Divine Plan) are to attain to.

As I’ve pointed out, free will has nothing to do with natural horrors. Must be nice though to be part of the elect.

God simply wants to share His Love and empower those who will like to be more like Him and to have the ultimate freedom any created creature can have (which we Catholics know to be Christ like).

I’m glad the gazelle has the freedom to be ripped apart and eaten alive by a lion. (that’s sarcasm by the way)

That has profound implications for an elevated humanity that is not constrained by physical existence and will be able to enter in and out of the material world at any time or place and in the spiritual world and participate as an integral of a perfected and new material world to come. I project the conclusion that evil becomes the enabler for God to grant us a greater nature to overcome it and subdue it and “be all we can be”.

So for those creatures without a soul (whatever that’s supposed to be), tough luck, sucks to be them.

The ancient Christian prayer: “O Necessary Sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer” I think sums it all up. By falling, God to balance the scales so to speak lifts us up to a higher human nature which is divine-human or “Christ Like”. Those who trust in God and do not despair are perfected but those who reject God or who are indifferent God get the free gift of life and all they seek in this temporal world but must suffer the eternal bitterness of knowing they will never “be all they could have been” or have any part in the new order that God is preparing for those who trusted in Him and cooperated with Him.

Again, we are back to the question of whether or not there was natural evil before* the fall*. I cannot believe for one moment that pain and distress did not exist before the rise of homo sapiens sapiens.

There is a lot of interesting read on the matter here: New Advent: Evil

"Metaphysical evil is the limitation by one another of various component parts of the natural world. Through this mutual limitation natural objects are for the most part prevented from attaining to their full or ideal perfection, whether by the constant pressure of physical condition, or by sudden catastrophes. "

What is the full perfection of a dog?

"If animals suffering is excluded, no pain of any kind is caused by the inevitable limitations of nature; and they can only be called evil by analogy, "

Well that’s handy trick, we’ll just agree to exclude animal pain. Nice.

Again, all this logic, grammar and rhetoric is just so much straw.

 

[SimonArizona]

Again, we are back to the question of whether or not there was natural evil before the fall. I cannot believe for one moment that pain and distress did not exist before the rise of homo sapiens.

When sapiens became man as we know it, i.e. able to concieve of “God,” God gave this man immortality, a special grace. Even as man ate in the “garden” the things he ate would die and decay. Immortality was for man only, not his ancestors, not the rest of the things on the earth. the rest of the world is not equal to man, man has dominion over it, it is for man’s use, it exists for the purpose of man’s needs.

 

[SimonArizona]

I find it interesting that the bible, containing so much poetry and symbolism, and which I believe to be inspired by God, says that God formed man from the elements of the earth that existed before man, not that God poofed man out of nothingness. And man’s formation from a long lineage of decent is harmonious with “and God formed man from the slime of the earth.”

 

[redhen]

Hi,
Same old story - there’s evil, people lie, steal and kill each other so there’s no God. It’s not like that. There’s evil in this world because God gave us freedom and some people use their freedom in a wrong way and don’t obey the commandments given by God.

My gripe is not with moral evil, but rather natural evil, where free will has no place.

I think you should look at yourself first and ask yourself a question: what have YOU done to make this earth a better place? Stop complaining and blaming God and just do something

Who said I was blaming God? I don’t think a supreme deity exists. Or if She does exist, She’s not omnibenevolent. What have I done to make the earth a better place? Well, I served in two different armies and helped win the Cold War against the Commies. I’ve donated to animal and child welfare organizations. I worked for several municipal and federal government departments, delivering vital services to the public. I’ve donated time and money to Native American welfare organizations. I was a Boy Scout. I’ve helped several people through difficult times. I’ve used my first aid training to help people injured in accidents. I’ve donated time and money to relief agencies. I am constantly trying to raise awareness about environmental issues. I was a novitiate in a Benedictine monastery, praying round the clock (for whatever good that was). I comforted the dying, helped provide food with farm work, helped build university buildings, wrote poems, changed diapers, cooked meals for others, and I’m not done yet. I know it’s not much, but hey, I’m not God.

God helped His children in countless situations and it means he’s not indifferent. Just look at those miraculous healings:
youtube.com/watch?v=6MA81BEU06k

I have a better Benny Hinn video for you. youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI&feature=fvst

What do you think about it? The existence of genetic defects doesn’t mean that God is imperfect, it just means that genetic defects happen They could be caused by many different factors.

Right, just as we would expect in a world without an all loving God.

Don’t expect this world to be perfect, It’s not and never will be. We are mortal because everything that surrounds us is temporal, only heaven and hell will be eternal. The earth and everything else will cease to exist some day, that’s how it is. If we wanna get to heaven we have to die first, there’s no other way.
God bless!

I don’t expect it to be perfect. I expect it to follow the natural processes, governed by the biological, geological, and physical phenomenon that we can observe and predict. Everything else is speculation and wishful thinking.

 

[redhen]

When sapiens became man as we know it, i.e. able to concieve of “God,” God gave this man immortality, a special grace. Even as man ate in the “garden” the things he ate would die and decay. Immortality was for man only, not his ancestors, not the rest of the things on the earth. the rest of the world is not equal to man, man has dominion over it, it is for man’s use, it exists for the purpose of man’s needs.

There is evidence that homo neanderthalis buried their dead. There is also mounting evidence that Homo floresiensis is a new species of hominds that lived up til 8,000 years ago. That is the same date given to the biblical community at Jericho.
dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/06/hobbit-species.html

So all these archaic modern humans and their ancestors lived and died just so we (homo sapiens sapiens) could be deemed worthy enough of an immortal soul?

Everything on the earth, and the universe was created for our use? I’m sorry if this sounds awkward, but I think this is the height of arrogance.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Natural evil is necessary for perfection? How is pain, suffering, distress, loss necessary for perfection? How are natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people, to say nothing of non-human species necessary for perfection? I’m stumped.

That is not what was stated nor implied in this particular statement. You are over projecting here. Go back and re-read - this time with comprehension.

Why do we have to suffer some minor pain when we cut teeth as a child - and then have to do it all over again when we get adult teeth? Stress adaptation and pain is implicit in growth. Do you still remember the pain of your childhood teeth cutting in or a particularly cold day where you almost got frostbite and do those memories still permeate your existence and hold you back from happiness? Might not this growth-suffering patten be a macro level pattern or divine principal that scales in all of Creation to bring us to the perfection of eternal beatitude - a place where there is no longer tears of sorrow and pain and only joy in having arrived?

Evil consists in the loss or deprivation of something necessary for perfection. Note too that not all things are equivalent in function or form and have different utility. A perfect Creation has a perfect set of entities that serve the needs of Creation. You seem to be arguing from a perspective that all things serve you or humans rather than all things serve God’s intentions. Pardon me for so saying but you sound mad at God that you are not perfect and want to blame Him for creating you in the way you would like to be. I wonder if the angels in heaven complain and whine that they should have been created human or if the fish of the sea wish they could have been created birds or garden slugs?

I judge these disastrous horrors to be bad, I guess that makes me stupid. Nice. Constructive parables, analogies? Wow, so all the relatives of those killed in earthquakes, floods, fires etc are now enlightened? Wow.

Sorry but I would turn right around here and judge your self-centered judgement and your whiny attitude to be just as bad and horrible. Would it bother you that others have their own judgements? What do you propose to do about it? Do you wish to change me or change yourself or just live with the situation and go right on complaining til the day you die? Those are your options.

Pessimism is a choice and not many people deliberately choose to take company with it for too long.

Lack of full comprehension? Hundreds of thousands of people killed by earthquakes, floods, famine and fire; what is there not to comprehend? These are natural events that effect all living creatures in their swath. What am I not comprehending?

What you are not appreciating is that these people all had an influence on others for better or worse before and after the losses. Has it ever occurred to you that death is a natural process that is in place to bring forth new-blood and to limit the impact of bad and powerful men? The pattern of recycling and restoring is seen all through nature - the planets and stars have finite lifespans and then they are recycled – even entire galaxies. Why is this “bad” when new comes from it?

If no one died by accident of nature and no on suffered disease or defect but just died on their 70th birthday I suppose you’d then complain “why must people die at such an early age”? “How Cruel God is to only give 70 years!” Consider to have the gift of life for even a day is an infinitely better than non-existance - with or without an afterlife. In your world when everyone goes into oblivion after they perish - what difference does it make how long you lived and what you did or enjoyed or suffered? Who cares? You might as well “eat, drink & be merry for tomorrow you die” – right? But something inwardly tells you this is a “wrong” attitude and there is a purpose for life.

When you get right down to the bottom line when are you going to ask the real thing that bothers you? When are you going to ask “why are we not immortal?” and “Why did God have this stupid plan when I could have done it better if I had His powers?”. Your line of reasoning serves no purpose if you close your mind to other possibilities. This line of thought can bring you no joy - no purpose - no betterment - no answers. Don’t you think that leaning toward optimism is the better way and start hoping there is somone at the wheel in charge of it all?

In your examples - perhaps the loss was of severity of degree to compel us to seek knowledge for how to build better housing and in smarter locations and this loss prevented a much larger future loss to society. God has the right to both give life and take it. If you don’t like that - do something about it if you can. But do you think by railing against God you will get Him to show himself and respond to you and answer your demands? If he did do you think it garners you any relational good with Him? If not, and its as you believe that there is no God - why waste your breath getting angry at a God that does not exist???

Why is it God’s fault that people are stupid and do stupid things like building their largest cities along fault lines? Why is it that people choose to take the risks of living in flood plains just because it is initially cheaper realestate but it has a high risk-to-reward ratio that statistically all but guarantees sooner or later one will lose all they owned and worked if not their lives? Why do people do stupid things like have recreational sex when their are such high probability of STDs and pregnancy etc.? Why do people debate in things they can’t change?

Ah yes, who are we to judge the ways of God. That’s the lesson Job was supposed to learn. In other words, we don’t know why God has created a world with these natural horrors.

As I said previously evil and imperfection is a consequence of human sin - some human some angelic. Clearly this Creation does not seem to be perfect from our context. Might it be that this is a temporary abode – even a place of exile?

This is why we have professional psychologists to help deal with these horrors.

I don’t know a single person who’s mental duress was every cured by a psychologist. Most people who get better do so on their own in spite of psychologists who profit of other’s deficiencies and have no profit motive for improving the patient nor do I beleive have the means to.

[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Every religion has their own explanation for evils. Why is Christianity the best?

We believe we have an intellect enlightened by faith and have studied it extensively in developing our theology. No one else on the planet has anything that stands close.

Don’t worry, be happy.

We are not to put our heads in the sand - God gave us our senses to help us survive and to reason. Excessive worry is not productive nor is blissful ignorance or Pollyannish naivety.

Wow, so thinking about these natural horrors can make me evil. Nice.

If you become preoccupied and absorbed with evil then you become aquainted and familiar with it and can invite it to be a part of you and loose objective detachment and become obsessed and even possessed.

Pure speculation. How would anyone know the traits of a supreme deity. This is just so much straw.

Based on recurring principals we see in nature and in projection of the ideals we find ourselves embracing as the most positive of traits we can relate to and conceive of. By assuming a Divine Creative Being we can very easily see that He is Eternal (outside of time and space) and must all knowing and all seeing and by showing Himself to be creative must also be benevolent. The order of nature implies fairness and balance and Justice etc.

Goodness of creation? The life of most organisms with a nervous systems consists of pain, hunger, and finally death.

Why is pain bad when its there to alert us to problems or changing conditions and serves us in our ability to grow or adapt just as much as it can teach us what is evil or destructive through discomfort? Would you consider satiation, euphoria and health as good if that was won at the cost of being heavily sedated by pleasure drugs, mental conditioning, and machines that exercised us like a mouse in a wheel track and doctors made us a Frankenstein from harvested and bio-engineered body parts ??? Do you really want to live in the material world forever ? How about if this was just a temporary place and from here there is a permanent place that is perfect in every way for our true or elevated nature?

James

 

[LBSDBS]

Why is pain bad when its there to alert us to problems or changing conditions and serves us in our ability to grow or adapt just as much as it can teach us what is evil or destructive through discomfort?

I think he is considering why pain is necessary at all and even existent as part of the nature of the universe. I will attempt to offer some logical insight to that question below.

Hey there,

I’m new here. I’ve been following this forum for quite a while and decided to join in and ask questions. I’m an atheist FYI.

So a question I ask for you who do believe there is a God out there, why should I believe there is a God?

I look around at this world we live in and see all the horrors of it. I look at it and see all the murders, racism, hatred, hunger, extreme poverty, the suffering, etc. and wonder how a good God could let this kind of bull garbage even happen.

As far as I’m concerned, if there is a God, to let all this suffering even exist on this tiny planet makes me think that it’s a God that’s very indifferent to the sufferings of humankind. To me, that’s nothing but an insult.

I look at the people around me - including my own self - and think how could a “so-called” powerful, loving, hates-sin, kind of God create people with flaws and create them to lie, steal, kill, and all that garbage?

I also can’t understand how people can believe in a God who demands that we remain humble and little and come from “the ground”. Why would a God create mortal beings?

I’m currently reading a biology book and couldn’t believe how there could be flaws and errors when it comes to DNA and “bad” mutations that happen. Oops, did God make a mistake when genetic defects and bad mutations happen? Guess he isn’t that perfect after all.

So I’ll be waiting to hear your answers.

Nice to meet ya!

You are treading on grounds that people tend to be very conflicting with. First is the simple question of whether or not there is a God. Second is the question of, if there is a God, what does he want.

On scientific grounds, biology can not answer the question of whether or not there is a God. Biology deals in how things are made but puts little attention to the source of existence. When dealing with God and stuff like that, you need to look in to a standing scientific catch 22. Time had to have a beginning, yet it couldn’t have begone. The universe has to have limits, yet it’s impossible for it to have limits, for if you reach the boundaries, there will have to be something beyond them and so on. If you can solve that puzzle, you can probably answer the question of whether or not there is a God. To date, no one ever has. Remember that when dealing with Atheists and religious groups alike. If the question of whether or not there is a God were answered scientifically, you’d know about it. Until then, there is an element of logical doubt on both sides.

Regarding God’s nature, the universe is full of suffering. Christians believe that Satan cannot create, therefore it is inevitable that the suffering we see is both provided by and the will of God. Now, WHY God would want us to suffer is a different story. On one hand, we can look to the movie: “Pulp Fiction.” Do you recall Jules’ famous bible rant. “You will KNOW my name is the LORD when I lay my vengeance upon thee.” That is actually a modification of Ezekiel 25:17, which the real bible passage is even colder, and just one of a tremendous amount of passages suggesting that God can be very vengeful and outright sadistic at times. This has bothered me for years. No one wants to believe in a bloodthirsty God.

It was a Mormon of all people who recently brought up an interesting idea (though he was trying to get a different point across when he did. What IF God created the universe with a trade-off of positive and negative to demonstrate to his creations that tampering with the laws of nature can have dire consequences. After all, scripture speaks of the end of time and a world without suffering afterwords. It is very possible that the very existence of negativity is put here entirely as part of a learning process for those who live in the universe, and that once enough creatures have experienced it and learned, the universe will then be recreated in it’s desired form. It MAY also be possible to suggest that the universe it’s self is made up with multiple dimensions, one with a mix of positive and negative, one with all negative and one with all positive. We DO know for a fact that their are at least two dimensions to the universe (the physical universe made of atoms and the non-physical universe that houses them) so even that is quite reasonable.

As for faith and the like. I am a believer in facts, and neither side has the facts to prove their case, so I must go with trust. The prophets have made some crazy predictions and all have come true, so I TRUST (have faith) that what they say about God and spirituality is true. If there is a scientifically Logical reason to buy and accept Christianity, that is it. No coincidence that according to the old testament, it is the prophets who’s word you are to have faith in and the means by which prophets should be identified is in the accuracy of their predictions.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

Hey there,

I’m new here. I’ve been following this forum for quite a while and decided to join in and ask questions. I’m an atheist FYI.

So a question I ask for you who do believe there is a God out there, why should I believe there is a God?

I look around at this world we live in and see all the horrors of it. I look at it and see all the murders, racism, hatred, hunger, extreme poverty, the suffering, etc. and wonder how a good God could let this kind of bull garbage even happen.

As far as I’m concerned, if there is a God, to let all this suffering even exist on this tiny planet makes me think that it’s a God that’s very indifferent to the sufferings of humankind. To me, that’s nothing but an insult.

I look at the people around me - including my own self - and think how could a “so-called” powerful, loving, hates-sin, kind of God create people with flaws and create them to lie, steal, kill, and all that garbage?

I also can’t understand how people can believe in a God who demands that we remain humble and little and come from “the ground”. Why would a God create mortal beings?

I’m currently reading a biology book and couldn’t believe how there could be flaws and errors when it comes to DNA and “bad” mutations that happen. Oops, did God make a mistake when genetic defects and bad mutations happen? Guess he isn’t that perfect after all.

So I’ll be waiting to hear your answers.

Nice to meet ya!

This probably isn’t going to help answer your initial question, but this is something I heard on the radio and it has stuck with me.

When asked how God could exist when there was so much evil in the world, a rabbi (sorry, don’t know his name) replied that the question is an answer in itself. If there is no God, we wouldn’t be questioning the existance of evil, it would just be a given. Is evil really evil without the goodness of God to show us the difference? We would just expect evil to happen as part of the natural cycle of the world and human life.

I know this does not really answer your question and I am probably doing a horrible job of paraphrasing his answer, but hearing it had a great impact on my thoughts on good/evil.

 

[redhen]

If there is no God, we wouldn’t be questioning the existance of evil, it would just be a given. Is evil really evil without the goodness of God to show us the difference? We would just expect evil to happen as part of the natural cycle of the world and human life.

In all respects, the planet earth (and the rest of the cosmos) behaves exactly as we would expect it to if there was no omnibenevolent God. This one of the atheistic arguments against God.

Do we need a God to show us the difference? Apparently not. Millions of Hindus, Buddhists and atheists see natural evil all around in the form of earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis, floods, etc.

 

[jmcrae]

Hey there,

I’m new here. I’ve been following this forum for quite a while and decided to join in and ask questions. I’m an atheist FYI.

So a question I ask for you who do believe there is a God out there, why should I believe there is a God?

There is actually only one good reason to believe in God, and that is because He exists and wants to have a relationship with you. There are certainly benefits to believing in God - a more disciplined, happier life; a sense of belonging; hope for the future, etc., but these are not reasons to believe - these are just the side-effects of belief.

I look around at this world we live in and see all the horrors of it. I look at it and see all the murders, racism, hatred, hunger, extreme poverty, the suffering, etc. and wonder how a good God could let this kind of bull garbage even happen.

He doesn’t - the Bible is filled with His commandments against all these things. But we, as a species, are disobedient to Him.

As far as I’m concerned, if there is a God, to let all this suffering even exist on this tiny planet makes me think that it’s a God that’s very indifferent to the sufferings of humankind. To me, that’s nothing but an insult.

I look at the people around me - including my own self - and think how could a “so-called” powerful, loving, hates-sin, kind of God create people with flaws and create them to lie, steal, kill, and all that garbage?

God actually created us perfect, in the beginning, but when Adam sinned, something fundamental went wrong with how the world works. Out of love for what He had created, even though it was all broken, God allowed it to continue to exist.

I also can’t understand how people can believe in a God who demands that we remain humble and little and come from “the ground”. Why would a God create mortal beings?

Why shouldn’t He do anything He happens to like to do?

I’m currently reading a biology book and couldn’t believe how there could be flaws and errors when it comes to DNA and “bad” mutations that happen. Oops, did God make a mistake when genetic defects and bad mutations happen? Guess he isn’t that perfect after all.

As I mentioned above, the brokenness of the world was not caused by God; it was caused when Adam sinned against God. Whatever it was that Adam did (we don’t really know - the thing with the fruit is just a metaphor) caused serious damage to the way things work. The rest of the story is us trying to get back into a right relationship with God so that things can go back to being perfect again.

 

[SeattleCatholic]

In all respects, the planet earth (and the rest of the cosmos) behaves exactly as we would expect it to if there was no omnibenevolent God. This one of the atheistic arguments against God.

Do we need a God to show us the difference? Apparently not. Millions of Hindus, Buddhists and atheists see natural evil all around in the form of earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis, floods, etc.

Having an atheist for a father, this is something I have heard many times. But I think the point of the rabbi’s statement is why do they see is as natural “evil” and why do people experience suffering. If there is no God, when these natural disasters happen, or when people harm other people, wouldn’t we just accept it as part of nature (human or otherwise) and not view it as an evil?

Again, I’m probably not expressing the rabbi’s statement well, and this is just something that makes me think about the existence of God and the existence of evil. I’m not using it as an argument to try and convince you.

 

[Chanel]

I am no more a fanatic than you are stupid. I am willing to be called such if that is what it takes to convince you.

You’ve just insulted me. I thought you were a religious person and wouldn’t even think to call someone stupid. I would think twice on that if I were you. What a total shame.

You know it’s amazing how I’m not religious yet don’t call you stupid. So what’s up with that? Huh? What is up with that?!?!

And , no, my son-in-law wasn’t poking fun at me. I think I made him a bit angry for putting hm on the spot. But, we love each other dearly, and, we have frequent conversations of this sort.

Has he ever put you on the spot?

Obviously, you are quite intelligent. I have found most aeithiests to be of amazing intellect.

Wait a dang second there…you just said I was stupid the first sentence you wrote…now you’re calling me intelligent? What? I’m so stupid, I’m intelligent?

Or perhaps you were being sarcastic when you wrote that. You might’ve meant “atheists are so intelligent they’re stupid!”

Maybe we have a reason to be intelligent. Maybe we’re more evolved. JK!

Why would God put up His own Son as a ransome to save such a rotten bunch of humanity? Our concept of “God” is triune, which I am sure you know about. So, God actually offered Himself up as that gift to save us all from ourselves. He knew that he would, at that point, give up the divine nature and be just fully human in order to accomplish that.

Gee, I didn’t know God could become human. How do I know that isn’t from pagan beliefs?

“No greater love has a man but to lay his life down willingly for his friends”-Jesus

“Love one another as I have loved you”-Jesus

If he really did save the world, why is it still screwed-up?

We can be evil, but we have a love within that shines through. it shined through when the firemen rushed into the Towers, along with a priest, the first casualty, Caught on film.

It showes when a police officer takes a bullet protecting the life of a criminal from being assainated

It shows when a brother undergoes life threatening surgery to provide a part of his liver to his sister.

Now, any of us, believers, pagan, jew, islamic, agnostics, and aeithiests are capable of such heroics.

Yes, of course we’re all capable of being beautiful on the inside. But you’re not because you’re not understanding that people don’t believe the same thing as you and YOU’RE TRYING to spill your beliefs on someone else. You just can’t take “no” for an answer, can you???

So much more is the sacrifice that God made. So that when you die, you have a choice to where you will go.

I think that religion is evil to a certain degree. If you don’t believe this or that then you’re damned to hell-fire. Some God you believe in. Some religion you believe in. I just don’t understand how you can believe in a religion that damns souls to hell for not believing the same thing you do. I find that very “close-minded”.

Yes, i know that you “believe”, trust, that you will rot away. There is not eternity. There is no God.

But i must try. But, I know that sometimes all a person can do is plant the seeds and walk away.

I still pray you decide before you die. Please do not be offended. i must do what is the right thing to do. i do not want you just to rot.

Oh, I’m quite offended.

Look here, I don’t tell you what to believe in, do I? Here I am, an atheist - who doesn’t believe in God obviously - yet I don’t CONDEMN anyone!

And here YOU are, a religious person, who says that I will change my mind before I die and repent, blah, blah, blah and you even “silently condemn” me.

Hmmm…maybe atheists are more “holy” than thou!