Why should marriage be preserved for a man and a woman?

[tonyfrancis21]

I thought the argument advanced by gay marriage advocates was that children had no relationship to marriage?

In any event – you seem to be saying that any marriage is better than no marriage (when it comes to raising children). Or have I stretched your argument too far?

It sure would be better than bringing up the child in an institution, or getting it aborted before birth

 

[estesbob]

It sure would be better than bringing up the child in an institution, or getting it aborted before birth

But we are not faced with that option. There is such a waiting list for adoptions in this country that lots of people adopt overseas.

 

[CopticChristian]

You are hilarious. Of course, I have the right to question your opinion. This is a discussion forum. When I call you out for being obviously wrong, just admit it. Then you might be more respected.

Epan,

Please reflect on your thoughts…

Homosexuals cannot procreate and do not have the right to marry.

This is my opinion based on knoweldge as a Physician, understanding and based on teachings of the OHCAC.

**
Incorrect. In some places yes.**

You are welcome to say you disagree, not welcome to say incorrect. You have no ability to offer me correction as a Physician or on a CAF. You are welcome to render an alternate opinion based on what you believe to be true and as a discerning interested party however as a non-Catholic your opinion will be registered at odds with teachings of the OHCAC when they do.

Epan, you have no right or privelege to correct my opinion. My opinion is not regional. It is my opinion.

I politely pointed this out to you. It is my opinion. You can disagree, offer an alternate opinion or do nothing. You are not in a position nor do you have no ability to correct my opinion. You can say you disagree. An opinion is an opinion. You are welcome to yours and I am welcome to mine.

You are hilarious. Of course, I have the right to question your opinion. This is a discussion forum. When I call you out for being obviously wrong, just admit it. Then you might be more respected.

I ask you to reflect on what you offered.

“Incorrect”. You say I am wrong. No I am not. You disagree and you do not see that you believe you are questioning when you did not question. If you choose to question an opinion, say so.

I question your opinion and believe you are wrong…this does not equate to “Incorrect”. You are “calling me out”…now that is hilarious. You believe I am wrong and you are free to state why you believe me to be wrong. If you believe I have no respect, then I am doing well as I promote truth and teachings of the OHCAC. I am not on the CAF to earn anything I do not already have and if you believe otherwise that is a product of your imagination.

I once spoke to a lawyer about a problem and told her that someone on the opposing side thought she was a “Bxxch”…her response…“Then I must be doing my job”…

Thank you for your thoughts.

Let me summarize for you…

Based on teachings of the OHCAC, recognizing that as a Physician men are men and women are women and their genitals were never meant to join in any union…

Homosexuals cannot procreate and do not have the right to marry

This opinion has nothing to do with what the world does, has done or will do and this opinion will not ever change.

I would imagine that other Catholics may feel the same way.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

But we are not faced with that option. There is such a waiting list for adoptions in this country that lots of people adopt overseas.

Obama can change adoption rules along with marriage rules

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Epan,

I am not on the CAF to earn anything I do not already have and if you believe otherwise that is a product of your imagination.

Let me summarize for you…

Based on teachings of the OHCAC, recognizing that as a Physician men are men and women are women and their genitals were never meant to join in any union…

Homosexuals cannot procreate and do not have the right to marry

This opinion has nothing to do with what the world does, has done or will do and this opinion will not ever change.

I would imagine that other Catholics may feel the same way.

Catholic priests are men, and nuns are women. Their genitals were meant to procreate.
But is it illegal or a sin for them to remain celibate?
Gay men and lesbians are just like the priests and nuns living together, but with a bit more intimacy and loving. Because they are usually just a couple unlike the priests and nuns who run orphanages and similar institutions, homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt only 2 or 3 children
BTW, What does CAF and OHCAC mean?

 

[PRmerger]

Gay men and lesbians are just like the priests and nuns living together, but with a bit more intimacy and loving.

It’s the “a bit more intimacy” part that’s the immoral part.

What you are saying is analogous to: the Eucharist is just like bread, with “a bit more” divinity in it.

Yeah. It’s the “a bit more” that changes everything, right?

CAF = Catholic Answers Forum
OHCAC = One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

It’s the “a bit more intimacy” part that’s the immoral part.

What you are saying is analogous to: the Eucharist is just like bread, with “a bit more” divinity in it.

Yeah. It’s the “a bit more” that changes everything, right?

CAF = Catholic Answers Forum
OHCAC = One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It will be as immoral as eating pork or putting up statues in Church, or working on Sundays.

 

[stewstew03]

It will be as immoral as eating pork or putting up statues in Church, or working on Sundays.

Or… adult incest, or zoophilia…?

 

[stewstew03]

It will be as immoral as eating pork or putting up statues in Church, or working on Sundays.

Not sure what you mean by “putting up statues…”

 

[CopticChristian]

Catholic priests are men, and nuns are women. Their genitals were meant to procreate.
BTW, What does CAF and OHCAC mean?

Catholic priests are men, and nuns are women. Their genitals were meant to procreate.

So far so good, men and women have parts with a purpose and some choose to use them and some choose not to use them:thumbsup:

But is it illegal or a sin for them to remain celibate?

It is not illegal. What does this have to do with anything?

Gay men and lesbians are just like the priests and nuns living together, but with a bit more intimacy and loving.

Gay men and women are just like priests? No they are not. They do not live in cloister and cannot offer the Sacraments.

Living together with a bit more intimacy and loving? So then you believe that gay people acting sexually immoral, living together, please do not pull the “this is a celibate homosexual couple”…are closer to intimacy than someone that lives dedicating their life to God?

Because they are usually just a couple unlike the priests and nuns who run orphanages and similar institutions, homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt only 2 or 3 children

Because, usually indicates a reason and should make sense however you say because they are just like priests and nuns, and they are not then you conclude that they should adopt children.

Have you seen what the Orthodox say about Homosexuality?

holy-trinity.org/morality/homosexuality.html

Thus, the Orthodox Church cannot subscribe to the demand that homosexuals be recognized by society and its agencies as legal spouses and as deserving the same respect as men and women enjoy in the state of wedlock.

Society and its values, religious and societal, have legitimate claims over the behavior of its members, especially in so vital a function as the sexual one on which not only the survival but its quality as well depend. No one has the right to do whatever he wishes with his body and still claim recognition and respect on the part of society.

The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality should be treated by society as an immoral and dangerous perversion and by religion as a sinful failure. In both cases, correction is called for. Homosexuals should be accorded the confidential medical and psychiatric facilities by which they can be helped to restore themselves to a self-respecting sexual identity that belongs to them by God’s ordinance.

In full confidentiality, the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually.

Psychiatric restoration, without religious direction and reconciliation with God, is bound to prove short lived.

A healthy society and various religions do not recognize perversions. Rather, they work to restore the homosexual to the status of a self-esteemed individual and thus to a valued instrument of their own survival and wellbeing under God.

Now this is CAF, you may want to discuss this with an Orthodox and see if you can get them to agree with you that Homosexuals are like priests and nuns…get back to me on that…Ok…

 

[tonyfrancis21]

So far so good, men and women have parts with a purpose and some choose to use them and some choose not to use them:thumbsup:

It is not illegal. What does this have to do with anything?
If it is not illegal for friars and nuns to keep their genitals without procreating, why should it be a sin for homosexuals?

Gay men and women are just like priests? No they are not. They do not live in cloister and cannot offer the Sacraments.
Celibacy and living in a cloister are not necessary conditions for offering sacraments. There are many orthodox priests who are married. What is the minimum number of inmates that are required to make a cloister? Will two inmates not make a cloister?

Living together with a bit more intimacy and loving? So then you believe that gay people acting sexually immoral, living together, please do not pull the “this is a celibate homosexual couple”…are closer to intimacy than someone that lives dedicating their life to God?
Some people say that gay people are immoral, and do not love God
Some others say that people who eat pork or meat of any animal with cloven hooves are sinners.
Some others think that those who work on Sundays will go to Hell.
All the above activities are against Bible teaching
Different people have different opinions, Some are obsessed with one law, but ignore all others. Even Jesus was not able to live satisfying all kinds of people in the world.
Jesus said, everything is O.K, as long as you love others like you love yourselves, and Keep God above everything else in your life.

Because, usually indicates a reason and should make sense however you say because they are just like priests and nuns, and they are not then you conclude that they should adopt children.

What I said was that, since a homosexual couple are only two people, it may not be practical for them to run a geriatric home or orphanage like the friars who live in larger cloisters with more members. But they may be allowed to keep one or two old people or home-less children.

Have you seen what the Orthodox say about Homosexuality?
Even Orthodox laws should change with the times.

 

[PRmerger]

f it is not illegal for friars and nuns to keep their genitals without procreating, why should it be a sin for homosexuals?

Good news, tony! It has never been a sin for homosexuals to “keep their genitals without procreating”!

And, I might add, it’s never been a sin for anyone, in the entire salvation history, to “keep their genitals without procreating”. Even for married couples–they can “keep their genitals without procreating”, without it being sinful, (although it is not the norm.)

 

[PRmerger]

Some people say that gay people are immoral, and do not love God

Thankfully, this is not the Catholic position.

Some others think that those who work on Sundays will go to Hell

This, too, is not the Catholic position.

Jesus said, everything is O.K, as long as you love others like you love yourselves, and Keep God above everything else in your life

No, tony. This is not what Jesus said. That would mean that everything could be justified (even oppression of women) as long as someone said, “Well, I love women just like I Iove myself. I just want to keep a woman in my basement for my pleasure.”

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Good news, tony! It has never been a sin for homosexuals to “keep their genitals without procreating”!

And, I might add, it’s never been a sin for anyone, in the entire salvation history, to “keep their genitals without procreating”. Even for married couples–they can “keep their genitals without procreating”, without it being sinful, (although it is not the norm.)

*Anybody who does not procreate will be in violation of God’s order to procreate.

"God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
*

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Thankfully, this is not the Catholic position.

No, tony. This is not what Jesus said. That would mean that everything could be justified (even oppression of women) as long as someone said, “Well, I love women just like I Iove myself. I just want to keep a woman in my basement for my pleasure.”

No, That will be selfish and exploitation of the woman.
If you love her as much as you love yourself, you should let her keep you in her basement for her pleasure, for an equal length of time.

 

[PRmerger]

*Anybody who does not procreate will be in violation of God’s order to procreate.

"God said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
*

That may be your view, but it is not the view of the Catholic Church.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

That may be your view, but it is not the view of the Catholic Church.

That is my view and Jesus’s view, because He said "“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17-18 ).

I would rather stick with Jesus’ and Bible’s view, than any other view.

 

[PRmerger]

That is my view and Jesus’s view, because He said "“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17-18 ).

I would rather stick with Jesus’ and Bible’s view, than any other view.

Well, tony, the ONLY way you know what Jesus’ view is is because the Catholic Church told you what he said…and you have divorced yourself from the Faith that gave you what Jesus’ view is.

So what you are proclaiming above is the recipe for anyone to say whatever they want and justify it.

You ought to conform your beliefs to Christ and His Body, the Catholic Church, not make up your own views that appeal to you.

 

[Brendan]

That is my view and Jesus’s view, because He said "“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17-18 ).

I would rather stick with Jesus’ and Bible’s view, than any other view.

St. Paul remained a celebate male, and even, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, encouraged others to be so ( 1 Cor 7:1-9)

Do you consider the words of Christ and the Holy Spirit to be at odds?

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Well, tony, the ONLY way you know what Jesus’ view is is because the Catholic Church told you what he said…and you have divorced yourself from the Faith that gave you what Jesus’ view is.

So what you are proclaiming above is the recipe for anyone to say whatever they want and justify it.

You ought to conform your beliefs to Christ and His Body, the Catholic Church, not make up your own views that appeal to you.

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world” (I John 4:1 ).
If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

The Second Vatican Council (1963-5) was not intended to be an infallible doctrinal council but was conceived as a “pastoral” renewal of the Church to bring it into line with the Revolution of 1789. Paul VI admitted it to be a disaster. For proof, you can go through the addresses of Popes John XXIII († 1963) and Paul VI († 1978) at the opening and closing of the Council, as well as other material from Popes, cardinals and bishops.

Paul VI again highlighted the non-infallible, non-definitive character of Vatican II in a general audience a year later.

Any pronouncements by man or church or clergy or priest or nun should be congruent with the teachings of Jesus.
Because Salvation and Jesus ( Word became Flesh) came to man through Jews does not imply that everything done by the Jews are or were correct. The Jews murdered Jesus who came to save them.
Similarly, Just because the Bible (Word became Book) was given to man by the Catholic Church does not mean that whatever they do or say anything cannot be questioned.

What are your thoughts on the “smoke of satan” that Pope John XXIII spoke about at the beginning of V2?