Why should marriage be preserved for a man and a woman?

[inocente]

You mean Paul made mistakes?? I wonder what else he got wrong…

I like that he goes over the top occasionally, to me that makes him more human.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

tonyfrancis21;10813500:

**Originally Posted by tonyfrancis21 **

Tony. Is it moral to act homosexually, yes or no.
There are many more questions like this that you will not be able to answer with a yes/no.
Try answering these

Is it moral to work on Sabbath?
Is it moral to look at women?
Is it moral to get angry and throw out money changer’s tables?
Is it moral to address another person as Satan?
Is it moral to pay tax to an oppressive tyrant?
Is it immoral to stone a prostitute to death?
Is it immoral for a (homosexual or hetero-sexual) couple who is medically unfit or incapable of procreation to get married?
Is it immoral for a couple (homosexual or hetero-sexual) to hold hands or kiss each other if they do not intend to procreate afterwards?
Will you stop lying and spreading apostasy?

You state you are Orthodox. If you have not noticed this is CAF. Homosexuals, Homosexual acts are immoral based on Church teaching. This is sufficient on this forum to state this.

But Jesus did not think thus in Caesar’s court, or when he argued with priests in his Temple.

What does being an Indian have to do with Christ, the Bible/Tradition and Church teaching?

Absolutely nothing. Same as my being Orthodox or this being CAF will not change truths and facts.

Africans and Orthodox do not promote as their state of existence to be sexual or asexual. Homosexuals argue for their existence as normal, a variant, created that way. Do you find this to be true. Did God create Homosexuals as Homosexuals?

I will not be the one to judge. The truth will be known only to the affected person, and the Supreme Judge Jesus, who asks us not to judge others. If a person says he is blind or deaf, he probably is.

What did Jesus do to change the morality of marriage and adultery?

Abortion
Murder
Rape
Incest
Homosexuality
Masturbation
Pornography

are these always immoral or just sometimes immoral?

Jesus didn’t bother much with what was done as much as with what intention they were done. As long as it was done out of love and without malice, it was O.K with Him.
Jesus practically broke all the rules of morality and tradition of His time.
He ate from unwashed plates, spoke with low class prostitutes, worked on Sabbath days, argued with Temple priests, allowed a woman to massage his legs with perfumed oil etc. etc.

 

[estesbob]

That is my view and Jesus’s view, because He said "“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17-18 ).

I would rather stick with Jesus’ and Bible’s view, than any other view.

Why should anyone accept you personal interpretation of Scripture and your apparent “channeling” of Jesus?

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Jesus specifically said he did not come to abolish the Law but fulfill it. If you are going to say you “stick to the Bible’s view” at least do so.

Which part of the Bible should I stick to?
where a prostitute is stoned to death or where she is saved?
where it is a sin to work on Sabbath, or where it is not?

I prefer to stick with Jesus and His Words.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Why should anyone accept you personal interpretation of Scripture and your apparent “channeling” of Jesus?

I have only quoted the Scripture, I have not interpreted it in any way. Thank you for mistaking me to be the author of inspired Scripture.

 

[estesbob]

I have only quoted the Scripture, I have not interpreted it in any way. Thank you for mistaking me to be the author of inspired Scripture.

So when you said

That is** my** view and** Jesus’s** view, because He said "“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17-18 ).

I would rather stick with Jesus’ and Bible’s view, than any other view.

You really didnt mean it

 

[tonyfrancis21]

So when you said

You really didnt mean it

I really meant it.
Jesus has clearly shown us how to interpret the Bible.
In His interpretation, He shows how Scripture can save sinners.
Church and Temple clergy and Elders use it to condemn and kill people. They twist and mis-interpret Scripture to suit their selfish ends.

The holiest man is like filth when compared to God.
The wisest man is like a stupid donkey in front of God.

It is foolish to depend on other men for guidance. It will be like the blind guiding the blind.
Every man will eventually be judged according to how he followed his own conscience.
God’s Spirit will guide each man if he allows it, instead of allowing worldly powers and forces to over-power it.
Jesus’ teachings were easily understood by fishermen and other simple people, while it went above the head of proud Priests and Learned men, and Caeser, and kings, because He purposely spoke in Parables which only simple and humble people would understand.
It is height of pride for any learned man or scholar or rich man, or ruler or religious head or member of CAF to feel that he knows more about God, or is closer to Him.
Catholics are today like how the Jews were 2000 years ago. The Jews gave Jesus to the world, but were not able to understand Him. Catholics gave the Bible to the world, but couldn’t understand it. It is an accepted fact that Non-Catholic Christians know Scripture better than Catholics. For some selfish reason, the Catholic authorities and higher ups forbade other Catholics from having access to the Bible and reading it, on the pretext that they were too stupid to understand it. This is height of vainglory.

 

[PRmerger]

I really meant it.
Jesus has clearly shown us how to interpret the Bible.

Yes. He says that it should be interpreted through the lens of Sacred Tradition, using the Church as our pillar and foundation of truth.

And, again, the ONLY way you know what Jesus said is because you give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church.

If you can’t trust the Catholic Church to get it right then how do you know that Jesus said anything?

It is foolish to depend on other men for guidance

 

[CopticChristian]

I really meant it.
Jesus has clearly shown us how to interpret the Bible.
In His interpretation, He shows how Scripture can save sinners.
Church and Temple clergy and Elders use it to condemn and kill people. They twist and mis-interpret Scripture to suit their selfish ends.

The holiest man is like filth when compared to God.
The wisest man is like a stupid donkey in front of God.

It is foolish to depend on other men for guidance. It will be like the blind guiding the blind.
Every man will eventually be judged according to how he followed his own conscience.
God’s Spirit will guide each man if he allows it, instead of allowing worldly powers and forces to over-power it.
Jesus’ teachings were easily understood by fishermen and other simple people, while it went above the head of proud Priests and Learned men, and Caeser, and kings, because He purposely spoke in Parables which only simple and humble people would understand.
It is height of pride for any learned man or scholar or rich man, or ruler or religious head or member of CAF to feel that he knows more about God, or is closer to Him.
Catholics are today like how the Jews were 2000 years ago. The Jews gave Jesus to the world, but were not able to understand Him. For some selfish reason, the Catholic authorities and higher ups forbade other Catholics from having access to the Bible and reading it, on the pretext that they were too stupid to understand it. This is height of vainglory.

Catholics gave the Bible to the world, but couldn’t understand it. It is an accepted fact that Non-Catholic Christians know Scripture better than Catholics.

It is a fact that the Bible came through the Catholic Church.

Who accepts what you call fact that Non-Catholic Christians know Scripture better than Catholics?

If you believe this to be true then why can’t they figure out…

Ecclsesiology
Eschatology
Pedobaptist vs Credobaptist
Sacrament vs Ordinance
Salvation assured vs not assured
Abortion is wrong vs not wrong
Homosexuality is immoral vs not immoral

and why did they discard the Catholic Bible and invent the Protocanonicals?

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Yes. He says that it should be interpreted through the lens of Sacred Tradition, using the Church as our pillar and foundation of truth.
And, again, the ONLY way you know what Jesus said is because you give tacit submission to the authority of the Catholic Church.
If you can’t trust the Catholic Church to get it right then how do you know that Jesus said anything?
Um…tony? You do know that the Bible did not float down from heavven, leather-bound, in the mouth of a dove, right?
You are depending upon men–Catholic men–to tell you what is inspired and what isn’t.
And here’s a perfect example of your dependence upon men:
You said this:
How do you know this? Because men told you Jesus said this. Catholic men. Catholic bishops to be exact.

As I mentioned earlier, Jews were used to prepare the world for the First coming of Jesus. They gave us the Old Testament and the Patriarchs. But that will not justify the waywardness of the Jewish priests, their misinterpretation of Scripture to meet their selfish goals, rejection of Jesus and eventual murder of Jesus.
The real Jewish priestly class towards the end of their useful got bloated with power and corruption. Their race and their temple were destroyed after their purpose was fulfilled.
Similarly, Catholic Church was used to publish the Good News (WORD) or (Bible) and many Saints to the people, and prepare the world for the Second coming of Jesus. And that will not justify the waywardness of Catholic priests, their misinterpretation of Bible, and false teachings. Observing the signs of the times, the Catholic Church is in the same position as where the Jews ( God’s own People) were 2000 years ago.

Matthew 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.
Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests

 

[tonyfrancis21]

It is a fact that the Bible came through the Catholic Church.

Who accepts what you call fact that Non-Catholic Christians know Scripture better than Catholics?

If you believe this to be true then why can’t they figure out…

Ecclsesiology
Eschatology
Pedobaptist vs Credobaptist
Sacrament vs Ordinance
Salvation assured vs not assured
Abortion is wrong vs not wrong
Homosexuality is immoral vs not immoral

and why did they discard the Catholic Bible and invent the Protocanonicals?

Catholic Bible scholars are like the Elders in the Jewish Temple with whom Jesus argued when he was a 12 years old boy. They may be wearing pompous dresses, holding Phds in Eschatology and other fancy subjects. But it will be difficult for them to understand Jesus’ teachings which are meant for simple people like fishermen who might never have gone to school.

 

[CopticChristian]

Catholic Bible scholars are like the Elders in the Jewish Temple with whom Jesus argued when he was a 12 years old boy. They may be wearing pompous dresses, holding Phds in Eschatology and other fancy subjects. But it will be difficult for them to understand Jesus’ teachings which are meant for simple people like fishermen who might never have gone to school.

. But it will be difficult for them to understand Jesus’ teachings which are meant for simple people like fishermen who might never have gone to school.

Well then, based on your reasoning, that you have shown in these threads…if it is found that any of the Magesterium fishes there is the possibility that the Magesterium has a firm understanding of Scripture.

You have no knowledge to be able to say that there is in time any of the magesterium that did not fish do you? Therefore, you need to substantiate your claim.

 

[CopticChristian]

As I mentioned earlier, Jews were used to prepare the world for the First coming of Jesus. They gave us the Old Testament and the Patriarchs. But that will not justify the waywardness of the Jewish priests, their misinterpretation of Scripture to meet their selfish goals, rejection of Jesus and eventual murder of Jesus.
The real Jewish priestly class towards the end of their useful got bloated with power and corruption. Their race and their temple were destroyed after their purpose was fulfilled.
Similarly, Catholic Church was used to publish the Good News (WORD) or (Bible) and many Saints to the people, and prepare the world for the Second coming of Jesus. And that will not justify the waywardness of Catholic priests, their misinterpretation of Bible, and false teachings. Observing the signs of the times, the Catholic Church is in the same position as where the Jews ( God’s own People) were 2000 years ago.

Matthew 22:8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come.
Matthew 22:10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests

But do you not understand that all of people led by God are never abandoned or do you deny this?

 

[tonyfrancis21]

But do you not understand that all of people led by God are never abandoned or do you deny this?

In God’s scheme of things, nothing is wasted. Even those that die or rot becomes food or manure for the living.

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Well then, based on your reasoning, that you have shown in these threads…if it is found that any of the Magesterium fishes there is the possibility that the Magesterium has a firm understanding of Scripture.

You have no knowledge to be able to say that there is in time any of the magesterium that did not fish do you? Therefore, you need to substantiate your claim.

For a change, you can start substantiating your claims starting with why you think the present day Magesterium or people with similar fancy titles know more about God or is closer to God than a poor uneducated farmer or fisherman.

 

[CopticChristian]

In God’s scheme of things, nothing is wasted. Even those that die or rot becomes food or manure for the living.

Good,

Then open your Bible to the Book of Romans…and read…as Paul writes to the Roman Christians and addresses the Jews…as you say

Catholic Bible scholars are like the Elders in the Jewish Temple with whom Jesus argued when he was a 12 years old boy. They may be wearing pompous dresses, holding Phds in Eschatology and other fancy subjects. But it will be difficult for them to understand Jesus’ teachings which are meant for simple people like fishermen who might never have gone to school.

understand that you are focusing on the worst and if that is the worst of the Jews or the worst of the Church…whatever you believe…notice that Paul says this…

1I say then, God has not **rejected **His people, has He? **May it never be! **For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

The word for rejected in the Greek is this…

apótheó: to thrust away
Original Word: ἀπωθέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apótheó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o-theh’-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I push or thrust away, reject
Definition: I push (thrust) away, repulse, reject, refuse.

and it is used 3 times in the NT…this is the second and here is the 3rd time…Paul says it again…

2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

You reject what God does not reject. Who are you to do what God does not do?

 

[tonyfrancis21]

Good,

Then open your Bible to the Book of Romans…and read…as Paul writes to the Roman Christians and addresses the Jews…as you say

understand that you are focusing on the worst and if that is the worst of the Jews or the worst of the Church…whatever you believe…notice that Paul says this…

The word for rejected in the Greek is this…

and it is used 3 times in the NT…this is the second and here is the 3rd time…Paul says it again…

You reject what God does not reject. Who are you to do what God does not do?

God does not reject the sinner, but rejects the sin of the sinner. Paul teaches that eventually the Jews will come to express faith in Jesus, enabling God to keep his original promise to them.
Catholic clergy ( gay or straight) and other sinners will also be accepted by God, when they realise their mistakes and return to faith in Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

As I mentioned earlier, Jews were used to prepare the world for the First coming of Jesus. They gave us the Old Testament and the Patriarchs. But that will not justify the waywardness of the Jewish priests, their misinterpretation of Scripture to meet their selfish goals, rejection of Jesus and eventual murder of Jesus.

Non-sequitur, tony.

Similarly, Catholic Church was used to publish the Good News (WORD) or (Bible) and many Saints to the people, and prepare the world for the Second coming of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps if you proffered what you* think* the charism of infallibility means, tony.

Do you think it means if the Pope says, “I think that brides should wear red!” that this falls under the charism of infallibility?

What about if a pope writes, “It is possible that purgatory is not an actual physical place”…does that fall under the charism of infallibility?

Please explain what you know regarding this Catholic teaching…for I fear that you are woefully misinformed about this. :sad_yes:

Hi, tony. Could you please answer the above questions? Thanks.

 

[mek42]

This thread has been informative.

Why does the Church allow the State to call it marriage when people who can procreate enter into joint legal personhood as allowed by the State? That such unions exist and called marriages, and that this nomenclature is not vociferously objected to by the Church seems to be a problem for arguments by members of the Church against allowing the State to also allow legally equivalent joint personhood to people who cannot procreate.