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tonyfrancis21
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Jesus was born without sin though He was born in this sinful world and became the King of Kings not because he was born in a Emperor’s palace, but because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
Similarly, The Bible is error free and full of valuable teaching not because it was written by Doctors in Ecclsesiology or Eschatology, but because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
A book will not lose its value or veracity just because it was sold by a liar, or because it was transported on the back of a donkey.
A preacher may travel to a distant land to preach in an airline owned by a drug-pusher. God uses Satan and his followers to do all the dirty and menial work for Him and His real children. There are many instances of this in the Bible.
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tonyfrancis21
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Non-sequitur, and out of context.
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tonyfrancis21
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God uses Satan and his followers as laborers to do all the menial work for Him and His real children. There are many instances of this in the Bible.
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PRmerger
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I think that you do not know what infallibility means, hence your inability to address the question.
Suffice it to say, tony, that you make the error of thinking that everything a pope says, such as, “I think brides ought to wear red!” is an infallible statement.
Please read about the charism of infallibility here:
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
catholic.com/video/scott-hahn-explains-papal-infallibility
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PRmerger
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Heh. All of the above you proclaim ONLY because you trust that MEN–Catholic men, Catholic bishops to be specific–told you what belongs in the Bible.
You would not know it any other way.
Do you see how you have given tacit submission to the
authority of the Catholic Church?
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estesbob
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So ?
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tonyfrancis21
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CopticChristian
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That would be the Protestant Puritans that did Witch Hunts in Salem.
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tonyfrancis21
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The donkey will not become infallible because he was transporting some Bibles on his back.
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PRmerger
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But you seem to be accepting that which the donkey says, on the one hand (that is: the Gospel of Matthew is inspired!) and then also rejecting what the donkey says (that is: the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ.)
Why do you accept the first proclamation but reject the second one? How do you know that they’re not both correct?
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estesbob
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None of which has anything whatsoever to do with whether we a shooed accept your personal interpretation of scripture or the tens of thousands of other personal interpretations of scripture. Who appointed you the arbiter of what jesus words mean?
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tonyfrancis21
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In 1542 Pope Paul III established the Congregation of the Holy Office of the Inquisition as a permanent congregation staffed with cardinals and other officials. It had the tasks of maintaining and defending the integrity of the faith and of examining and proscribing errors and false doctrines; it thus became the supervisory body of local Inquisitions. The most famous case tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei in 1633.
In 1611, Galileo Galilei visited Rome and exhibited the wonders of the telescope to the pontifical court. He tried to produce scriptural confirmation of the view that the earth went around the sun. The Church warned him that he should limit himself to study of the physical world and to avoid applying his ideas to theology. In 1616 the Church condemned as absurd and heretical the view that the earth moved around the sun, and the Church made expressions of this view forbidden reading. Pope Paul V instructed Galileo to refrain from teaching the doctrine, and Galileo promised to obey.
The Church, meanwhile, had been burning a few at the stake for their heresies. Giordano Bruno had been burned to death in Rome for his Pantheism. Another Pantheist, Lucilio Vanini, was condemned as an atheist and burned at the stake in 1619 in Toulouse, in southern France.
Galileo Galilei was brought before the Inquisition for heresy, but abjured his views and was sentenced to house arrest, under which he spent the rest of his life.
The persecutions began in the Bishopric of Würzburg, who was eager to assert Catholic authority in the territories he administered. Beginning in 1626, von Ehrenberg staged numerous mass trials for witchcraft in which all levels of society, including the nobility and the clergy, found themselves targeted. By 1630 it is estimated that 219 men, women and children were burned at the stake in the city of Würzburg itself, with an additional 900 executed elsewhere in the province.
Concurrent with these events, a similar large-scale witch hunt claimed 300 to 600 lives in nearby Bamberg, where the prince-bishop erected a specially designed Malefizhaus (witch house), containing a torture chamber whose walls were adorned with Bible verses… Meanwhile, in Upper Bavaria, 274 suspected witches were put to the torch in the Bishopric of Eichstatt in 1629 and another 50 perished in the adjacent district of Neuburg.
We can see that the Jews of pre-Jesus period were less barbaric than the Catholics of the post Jesus period, who claim to be the authority in interpreting Scripture.
Neither Protestants nor Catholics can claim to be followers or advocates for Jesus who asked his followers to show the other cheek if they got hit on one, and who saved a sinner from being stoned to death.
Every man can trust in The Holy Spirit for his daily bread and daily moral instruction.
It is not of consequence whether they come as Mannah, or Ark of the covenent, or as Jesus, by air, or sea, in a book or tablet through radio, or TV, or through Catholic church or Protestant Church; because He is perfectly capable of making sure that everybody gets according to their needs. The problem is not in His delivery, but in our receipt and assimilation of the heavenly bread.
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tonyfrancis21
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Please go through what I had written once more, from the beginning of my posting.
You seem to be asking me the same question, and I am giving you the same answer, but with different examples, hoping you will understand
I have all along maintained that I accept only the book, and how it is interpreted by Jesus, who uses Scripture to save mankind. He saved men and women from Jews who used Scripture to accuse, condemn, and kill by stoning them to death. The Jews thought that they were right because they were the Chosen People of God
I reject the interpretation of Scripture by the Jewish priests and of the Catholic Church, when they use it for killing people. Catholic church also, like the Jews, though they initially had Jesus, and the apostles, gradually became corrupt, and addicted to money and other worldly temptations. They also, like the Jews, killed anybody who opposed them when they were powerful, and burned them at stakes, but now, they are losing strength, and there is hardly any attendance in Catholic Churches. The Jews and the Catholic Church were just vehicles (donkeys) for delivering Jesus and the Bible to God’s children. We have to only follow Bible as interpreted very lucidly by Jesus.
The Holy Spirit opened the doors to everybody (Protestents, Anglicans, etc. etc.), who made the Bible available worldwide. Today more Bibles are read by Protestants than the Catholics, though Catholics are more in number. The Holy Spirit knows how to deal with the dis-obedience of Jewish priests and Catholic Church, and will get everything done just as He had planned. We can safely read the Bible because the Holy Spirit had ensured that the Pharisees and Catholics were not able to tamper or alter it. But they succeeded in making Scripture inaccessible to the common man ( though not any more because of Martin Luther), and interpret it in such a way that they can exploit poor people. They claim that they can interpret it any way they want because they wrote them. But they don’t realise that they were just dispensable mediums which God used to broadcast His plan. But God is not thankless to them. God has given them an option of joining the saved, if they mend their ways and return back to Him. But they will have to be born again spiritually if they are to be saved.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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Well, as nothing in the New Testament was written yet, it’s odd that you would say that Jesus interpreted something which had not yet been made.
Did you mean that you follow the way the Old Testament was very lucidly interpreted by Jesus?
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estesbob
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So why does the Holy Spirit lead people to interpret Scripture so differently Is our God the God of confusion?
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estesbob
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Nice cut n paste but still offers no explanation as to why we should accept your personal interpretation of Scripture
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tonyfrancis21
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I think that you have understood the truth, but are acting as though you haven’t.
If I bought a Bible from Idi Amin’s bookshop, can Idi Amin claim credit for what is written in the Bible?
The following description about Balaam and his donkey (2 Peter 2) aptly describes the Catholic Church of today.
But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the wicked sorcerer
Similarly, God used Jews and Catholic church as a vehicle to deliver Jesus and the Bible to the world.
Jesus was born among the Jews not because they were the most holy.
Jesus came searching for the lost sheep who needed saving. He came to save sinners,
Probably 2000 years ago, the Jews must have been the worst sinners who needed saving most, and that is why Jesus chose to be born among them. But they were more thickheaded than Balaam, (he did not crucify the donkey for giving him good advice).
The Jews chose to crucify Jesus rather than obey Him. Though Jesus was a Jew, it will be mendacity if the Jews claim any credit for the good teachings or deeds of Jesus. Jesus will of course save those of them who will die to their sins and be born again.
Nothing good would normally have come out of the Catholic Church especially after their unholy association with the power hungry Roman empire. But God knows how to use the Catholic Church, an organisation controlled by money greedy power mongers, pedophiles, or homosexuals to his advantage. God used their greed to get His things done through them, in spite of their wickedness and stupidity.
You can read the original story of Balaam in Numbers 22-24.
The wicked Balaam and his donkey were only tools in God’s hand. What they did or said were not because of their benevolence, or charity, or intelligence or wisdom. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, God uses Satan and his followers and animals to do the dirty work for Him and His real children.
If you still cannot understand what I am trying to express, you should pray to God to send you Balaam’s donkey who was able to guide Balaam into doing the right thing.
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tonyfrancis21
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Jesus had not changed anything in the Old Testament. The New Testament is Jesus’ interpretation of the Old Testament, which was very different from how the Jewish priests interpreted it. They were fooling and oppressing the people with their own selfish version of the Scripture, which was why God Himself had to come as man, to teach man the real truth.
Man, because of his corrupt nature cannot be relied upon to convey real Truth without adulterating it. If it were possible to have an infallible man or woman in this world, God would not have had to send His only Son to be born and to die to save sinners.
That is why infallibility of the Pope and sinlessness of Mary are all meaningless.
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