Why should Mary be a stumbling block!

[Mannyfit75]

“The canon of the NT was not completed until the late 4th century.”

Not true. I don’t know what sources you have this from, but it is clearly not true. NT Canon was completed in almost the very same form we have today by (if I remember correctly) the time of the Apologets (during the reign of Marcus Aurelius circa 160-180), and for the most part even earlier.

Actually, the earliest list of NT text by the Early Church was in 160 AD. By 160 AD, the 4 Gospels were already referred too in the Liturgical worship.

By 367 AD, St. Athanasius of Alexandria gave a list of the 27 NT Books which also included 46 OT text (Deutrocanonical Books included). Then in 393, AD the same list came about in Council of Hippo, and this list was repeated in the Council of Carthage in 397 AD and 416 AD. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine. In 382 AD, Pope Damascus I issued an identical list to include 46 OT, and 27 NT text.

 

[LilyM]

yeah i know, i know. like i said, i know all about the logical acrobatics. its just that when you say “mother of god”, its not humanity that first comes to mind but the divinity. some things are just wrong no matter how logical they are.

Logic is never wrong, darl, when properly applied - that’s its whole point, to help us determine truth, even when that truth is unlikely-seeming. And it is properly applied in the case of ‘Mother of God’. Nor is it acrobatics, any more than maths, science or algebra of even the most complicated type is acrobatics.

You may prefer the Greek term Theotokos - more accurately translated as ‘God-bearer’ I don’t think anyone can be uncomfortable with the fact that she bore Jesus who is true God as well as true Man.

Remember this particular Marian dogma is all to do with the nature of Christ, much less or not at all really with Mary herself. It is a reassertion that His divinity and His humanity are contained in the one person and not separate from each other. Contrary to heresies at the time denying or downplaying either His divinity or His humanity.

Mary being the mother of that single person is mother of all of Him. Just as if I am a lawyer my mother is mother of a lawyer. Even though her giving birth to me is kinda independent of me being a lawyer, she is nonetheless mother of the whole person so is acknowledged in regards even to my career.

 

[boppaid]

That tends to be my thought, since Joseph is not mentioned during Jesus ministry we can assume he is dead and buried. I believe God chose Joseph to care for Mary and he was significantly older and consumating wasn’t much in his plans.

I don’t think so, because he was engaged to Mary before she became pregnant. He was obviously planning on consumating at least then. (PS-doesn’t the church teach that marriage must be consumated to be valid?)

 

[BrewMax]

I just don’t get it!

Mary said to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana,“Do what ever HE tells you”. Sounds to me like she was instructing those servants to be obedient to Jesus.

I guess what I am having a hard time understanding is, if having a devotional love for Mary leads us to a greater Love and Worship of our Lord and Saviour, why is this a problem for non Catholics to understand?

If by following her advice from scripture, we “Do what ever HE tells us”,why is our devotion to Mary as an intercessor rejected as being wrong? Did she not tell us to follow her Son?

Mary showed us by her example to always say YES to God, to trust in Him and believe that what He says is true. When I have doubts, I turn to Mary and her examples of unwavering faith as a model for me to follow.

If one chooses to always go directly to God in all prayer, never asking the Saints and Angels and most our Lady to join you in prayers, that is fine for you, but if we as Catholics choose to enlist the aid of ALL Saints and Angels in heaven (who only do the will of God) why should that be a problem for you?

Jesus is the Only mediator between us and the Father, this we all agree upon, but we as Catholic also believe that God has given us many Saints who share our journey with us and are there to help us, to intercede for us to Jesus.

God bless all on your journeys toward heaven and I pray that you do the same for me.

I can agree with this to a point. I believe that it is very useful to ask Mary and the saints to pray with us. We are all in a chain alive to the dead as the whole communion of saints and I believe that staying in recognition to this is very important. That being said, I think that too much emphasis can easily be put upon Mary to “do what we cannot for ourselves”. I believe that this is really the wrong perspective for prayer. I believe that Mary and all of the saints here and beyond have good intentions in prayer and otherwise, but let’s not get carried away from the most important truth here. God hears our prayers and knows what is best for us whether we acknowledge that or not.

 

[swariffin]

“The canon of the NT was not completed until the late 4th century.”

Not true. I don’t know what sources you have this from, but it is clearly not true. NT Canon was completed in almost the very same form we have today by (if I remember correctly) the time of the Apologets (during the reign of Marcus Aurelius circa 160-180), and for the most part even earlier.

Dear Lutheran, The NT was indeed canonize in 4th century. Please remember that it is not necessarily mean that the text itself was finished by that date. In fact, the text was written long before. The Mark gospel, for instance, was written around 70AD, the Paulian letters were even earlier around 47AD - 55AD. The text that the early Christians had around “that world” were in form of codices. The codices were copied from the original text by hand rewriting, for there was no xerox machine at that time. The canonizing process was done in a very long time-consuming process since those codices were need to be compared against each other, to ensure no falsifications. The early Christians indeed had those codices, but not in a complete bible as we have today. No guarantee that the codex in one Christian community was the same as the codex of others. Also, one community may have a certain codex, but others did not. Imagine that how difficult a task of a church leader in that era in term of teaching due to these circumstances. Given the same bible we have for both Catholics and non-Catholics (forget the deuterocanonica) today, we already have differences of interpretations. Let alone in the early Christian era. But, amazingly, thanks to God, the early Christians, if we learn from history, did not have problems such as today’s Christian. We really should learn from them. I am sorry for my posting that is not relevant to this thread.

 

[po18guy]

Ok, clearly some things need to be set straight:

Do not presume that all protestants say that communion is only “a symbol”. The Lutheran reformators, and Luther himself, made it very clear that Holy Communion IS in fact the body and blood of Christ, and this is what Lutherans believe.

And let me be equally abusive as you in your signature:

Catholics care more about the some woman they think produced the car than about the car itself.

Luther could consecrate the Eucharist, but when he died, the validity of the consecration died with him. We call all Christians to unity. We get the equivalent of the finger. We pray for you.

 

[po18guy]

Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth! Great reply How many times do we have to say that we DON"T WORSHIP MARY before it sinks in!? Obviously, it never will Great reply Goldy

Ever notice that everyone who “knows” all these Catholic facts is not actually, ummmm, Catholic? Fallen away Catholics cannot be considered a credible source, but if you must use something to justify your separation from the One True Church, you use what you have. It is only the truth that suffers.

 

[po18guy]

I can agree with this to a point. I believe that it is very useful to ask Mary and the saints to pray with us. We are all in a chain alive to the dead as the whole communion of saints and I believe that staying in recognition to this is very important. That being said, I think that too much emphasis can easily be put upon Mary to “do what we cannot for ourselves”. I believe that this is really the wrong perspective for prayer. I believe that Mary and all of the saints here and beyond have good intentions in prayer and otherwise, but let’s not get carried away from the most important truth here. God hears our prayers and knows what is best for us whether we acknowledge that or not.

Some devotions can tend to take time away from worship of Christ. It is precisely these that draw attention and are used as proof of the assertion.

Christ’s peace.

 

[simonz]

This is my first post here. I’m just beginning the RCIA program and come from a Protestant background. Yes, the whole Mary thing is a huge stumbling block for me. For years I’ve always wondered what the Catholic obsession about Mary was about. After all she is only a mere mortal, yet people pray to her.

Why would anyone want to pray to a dead human? As another poster said earlier in this thread that he only prays to the Triune God: God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I’m of that camp of belief.

Another question I have is WHY do we need an intermediary to get to Jesus? Wouldn’t prayers directly to Jesus suffice?

With that said, I feel the calling to come home to the Catholic church. Could someone enlighten me more about praying to Mary (and the Saints too).

simonz

 

[po18guy]

This is my first post here. I’m just beginning the RCIA program and come from a Protestant background. Yes, the whole Mary thing is a huge stumbling block for me. For years I’ve always wondered what the Catholic obsession about Mary was about. After all she is only a mere mortal, yet people pray to her.

Why would anyone want to pray to a dead human? As another poster said earlier in this thread that he only prays to the Triune God: God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I’m of that camp of belief.

Another question I have is WHY do we need an intermediary to get to Jesus? Wouldn’t prayers directly to Jesus suffice?

With that said, I feel the calling to come home to the Catholic church. Could someone enlighten me more about praying to Mary (and the Saints too).

simonz

Welcome! Remember that Christ said “God is God, not of the dead, but of the living” Christ Himself revealed this during the Transfiuration.

Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 20:38
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Mary, who was destined from all time to be the “God-bearer” is certainly well considered to be the new Eve. Through Mary, man was restored to grace, the exact opposite of Eve causing man’s fall from grace. With Eve it was God’s fruit of knowledge. With Mary, it is the fruit of her womb, the Revelation and restoration.

Since your friends can pray for you on earth and that is appropriate, why can’t those who are alive with God pray for you? Since they are in a state of perfection, their prayers have much more efficacy. Mary is one of the Saints. She only and always leads us to Christ-as she did in Cana at the wedding feast.

Christ called her “Woman”, not as a type but as a name, which many think is demeaning. However, Eve was called “Woman”, since through her all mankind would be brought forth.

Search out the threads on Mary, as well as reading through all of the post inthis thread. They will explain much. Many of us had the well-known “Mary problem”. God revealed the truth to me in a Catholic bible study, both through scripture and teaching about the culture of those times.

Stick with it. God is with you and will remain by your side, gently guiding you to all truth.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[justasking4]

This is my first post here. I’m just beginning the RCIA program and come from a Protestant background. Yes, the whole Mary thing is a huge stumbling block for me. For years I’ve always wondered what the Catholic obsession about Mary was about. After all she is only a mere mortal, yet people pray to her.

Why would anyone want to pray to a dead human? As another poster said earlier in this thread that he only prays to the Triune God: God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I’m of that camp of belief.

Another question I have is WHY do we need an intermediary to get to Jesus? Wouldn’t prayers directly to Jesus suffice?

With that said, I feel the calling to come home to the Catholic church. Could someone enlighten me more about praying to Mary (and the Saints too).

simonz

Good questions. If Christ is sufficent as the scriptures teach, why would you want to ask help from Mary or the saints? Have you looked carefully at the marian doctrines and compared them with Scripture?

 

[po18guy]

Good questions. If Christ is sufficent as the scriptures teach, why would you want to ask help from Mary or the saints? Have you looked carefully at the marian doctrines and compared them with Scripture?

Don’t pray for anyone else. Ever. And, don’t ask them to pray for you. The bible says Jesus is the only intercessor and you just might risk an eternity in hell if you “back door” him by using others.

Sound silly? It is. God is God of the living, not of the dead. Does JA4 believe that all of the souls in heaven, now perfected and in the presence of God, have no prayer ability? Read on:

Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”.

Revelation 5:7-9 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne”.

Revelation 8:2-4 “The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand”.

The bible clearly states that the prayers of the Saints rise to God. Now you may just be able to get to heaven without using their heavenly intercession, but why risk it? If the mother of Christ is not a Saint in Heaven, then who is?

May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[justasking4]

Don’t pray for anyone else. Ever. And, don’t ask them to pray for you. The bible says Jesus is the only intercessor and you just might risk an eternity in hell if you “back door” him by using others.

Sound silly? It is. God is God of the living, not of the dead. Does JA4 believe that all of the souls in heaven, now perfected and in the presence of God, have no prayer ability? Read on:

Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”.

Revelation 5:7-9 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne”.

Revelation 8:2-4 “The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand”.

The bible clearly states that the prayers of the Saints rise to God. Now you may just be able to get to heaven without using their heavenly intercession, but why risk it? If the mother of Christ is not a Saint in Heaven, then who is?

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Where in scripture do we have any examples or exhortations to pray directly to someone in heaven (some christian who has died)? All the passages you use above do not show any believer here praying directly to someone in heaven?

 

[BrewMax]

Don’t pray for anyone else. Ever. And, don’t ask them to pray for you. The bible says Jesus is the only intercessor and you just might risk an eternity in hell if you “back door” him by using others.

Sound silly? It is. God is God of the living, not of the dead. Does JA4 believe that all of the souls in heaven, now perfected and in the presence of God, have no prayer ability? Read on:

Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”.

Revelation 5:7-9 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne”.

Revelation 8:2-4 “The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand”.

The bible clearly states that the prayers of the Saints rise to God. Now you may just be able to get to heaven without using their heavenly intercession, but why risk it? If the mother of Christ is not a Saint in Heaven, then who is?

May the peace of Christ be with you.

Of course Mary is a saint, no problem with that. What I have always been uneasy with though is referring to Mary as the mother of God. Mary was chosen by God for a very special purpose and that was to give human birth to Jesus. Jesus was never created because he is God and John 1 says that the Word was with God and the word was God. He became incarnate from the virgin Mary as the creed says, but he always was as is God the Father. In saying this, I do not think of or proclaim Mary as the mother of God.

 

[boppaid]

The canon of the NT was not completed until the late 4th century. Problem is, virtually the entire world was illiterate at that time. In Christ’s time, only the Scribes, Pharisees and maybe a few others could read. Faith was, for the most part, oral tradition. Sacred scrolls were read in the Temple, but I’m talking about the early, pilgrim church here.

Hmmm. I’m not completely sure that’s true. Paul, Peter, etc. were writing to the Christian Church. They were writing to believers. They wrote the scriptures, mostly in the form of letters, to teach about Christ. It was completed. Paul’s letters were completed when he wrote and distributed them. The same with all the letters and writings. They were complete after they wrote them. They just weren’t bound in a book all together in something named “The Bible”.

I missed that scripture. I remember “Go and make disciples of all nations…” Nothing about writing at all.

You may be right here. I thought I remembered reading that, but I can’t find it, so I am probably wrong.

Rhetorical question: Did He know that the printing press, increasing levels of literacy and a bible in every hand would lead to personal interpretation of scripture and the shattering of His Sacred Body?

I don’t think so. I don’t think it mattered. The authors of the NT scriptures got the word of the Lord out to the people regardless.

As Catholics, we have to strain to think of a church with no Tabernacle, no Body and Blood of Christ, only two Sacraments, no Priests, seven missing books of scripture, and maybe 10-500 years max of church history. Such a lack often doesn’t register with us, who benefit from 1977 years of continuous teaching-just as the incredible richness and depth of our faith sometimes doesn’t register with them. It is easier to have less beliefs than it is to have more. We must rely on God revealing His truth to them.

I’m confused on this now. Aren’t we now Christ’s tabernacle?

 

[boppaid]

I just wanted to BUMP This, because I’m curious as to what others’ thoughts are on my response below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukewarm View Post
That tends to be my thought, since Joseph is not mentioned during Jesus ministry we can assume he is dead and buried. I believe God chose Joseph to care for Mary and he was significantly older and consumating wasn’t much in his plans.
I don’t think so, because he was engaged to Mary before she became pregnant. He was obviously planning on consumating at least then. (PS-doesn’t the church teach that marriage must be consumated to be valid?)

I don’t think so, because he was engaged to Mary before she became pregnant. He was obviously planning on consumating at least then. (PS-doesn’t the church teach that marriage must be consumated to be valid?)

 

[po18guy]

Where in scripture do we have any examples or exhortations to pray directly to someone in heaven (some christian who has died)? All the passages you use above do not show any believer here praying directly to someone in heaven?

Scripture gives absolutely no guidance whatsoever on the use of toothpaste or deodorant, but I’ll bet you use it. Since it’s not scriptural, you are just participating in man-made traditions. I’m thankful you do, however.

You already know the bible is not all there is about Jesus. Why do you persist in believing that it is? Even that’s not biblical.

 

[paarsurrey]

Mary said to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana,“Do what ever HE tells you”. Sounds to me like she was instructing those servants to be obedient to Jesus.

Hi

I as an Ahmadi Muslim think that Mary, since she was a Jew, she meant GodAllahYHWH is to be obeyed, she did not mean Jesus.

If by following her advice from scripture, we “Do what ever HE tells us”,why is our devotion to Mary as an intercessor rejected as being wrong? Did she not tell us to follow her Son?

Hi

No doubt you are free to do anything you like, but a misconception I think bears no fruits. One should love GodAllahYHWH as mentioned in Deuteronomy, there is no need to believe in intercessors.

This is my opinion.

 

[po18guy]

Hi

I as an Ahmadi Muslim think that Mary, since she was a Jew, she meant GodAllahYHWH is to be obeyed, she did not mean Jesus.

Hi

No doubt you are free to do anything you like, but a misconception I think bears no fruits. One should love GodAllahYHWH as mentioned in Deuteronomy, there is no need to believe in intercessors.

This is my opinion.

WELCOME! Hopefully, we can explain the reasons for our beliefs and faith. We believe some things the same as your Prophet, having a reverence for Mary. However, we also believe in the Holy Son she gave birth to. Because of the recorded testimony of His great works and teachings, we believe that he is part of the One God. I know Islam does not agree with this, but please hear me: The Triune God has been described as similar to the states of water. There is ice, there is liquid water, and there is steam. All are water, yet in different forms. He remains One God. Jesus, for us, is the fullfilment of the many prophets.

One fascinating thing to Catholics is the appearance of Mary at Fatima. This cannot be a coincidence. This occurred for a reason, since God does nothing without a perfect reason. Please let us know what your thoughts are, because when we talk, we can disagree, but we do not fight!

Peace be with you.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where in scripture do we have any examples or exhortations to pray directly to someone in heaven (some christian who has died)? All the passages you use above do not show any believer here praying directly to someone in heaven?

po18guy;2746307]Scripture gives absolutely no guidance whatsoever on the use of toothpaste or deodorant, but I’ll bet you use it. Since it’s not scriptural, you are just participating in man-made traditions. I’m thankful you do, however.

I’m not saying that all of “men’s traditions” are not helpful especially the kind you mention here.

You already know the bible is not all there is about Jesus. Why do you persist in believing that it is? Even that’s not biblical.

Huh? What else do we know with any certainty about Christ that is not on the pages of scripture?
Even though the scriptrues do say Jesus did other things not mentioned, that still does not mean we know what these
other things" were.