Why should pro-choicers think we sincerely think embryos are people?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Prodigal_Son
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
But Pallas, a 6 week old human (with brain activity) is not capable of any rational thought. Why does this entity attract special respect that the lion-being and the chimpanzee-being (also at similar development stage) do not?
 
The reasoning is specious, completely fallacious and ignores the foundational fact that is the reason that abortion is wrong. The principal involved is the prohibition against Murder. The reason that abortion is wrong is that murder is wrong and so Killing those innocent unborn children is wrong. The reason murdering a abortion doctors is wrong is because murder is wrong.
It is perfectly consistent if you are willing to do an honest analysis, but they are being dishonest and ignoring the foundational principal that it is based on.
I’m afraid you didn’t understand my original post. I am pro-life, and I was not presenting an argument in favor of abortion.

As for whether pro-choice individuals are being dishonest, I don’t think so. In many cases, they just don’t believe an embryo/fetus is a person. That might be wrong, but it’s not dishonest.
 
You are mistaken. Murder is a legal term.
"Murder is an ambiguous term. It could either mean “any type of wrongful killing” or "those things legally defined as ‘murder’ ". It is not merely a legal term.
The principle of self-defense (or defending others) is not absolute. Using lethal force is only allowed in there are no other options. The only problem with the reasoning presented by Prodigal_Son is that he failed to show that there are no other option to prevent abortions. It is a practical issue, not a theoretical one.
I never claimed, however, that we should – given the current situation – kill abortionists. My point was that “theoretically”, as you say, such an action could be justified, if it would save an innocent life.

You and I agree on the argument, but disagree about whether it applied to fetuses.
 
So who is right? Which legal system is “objectively” better than the other? It’s all relative, you know.
I am very confused. Are you saying there are absolute legal norms, but no absolute moral norms? Or are you saying that there are absolute moral norms, but that nations tend to ignore these?

The first position undermines the rest of what you have said here, since you have continually implied that it is wrong (not just illegal) to kill adult human beings. The second position is irrelevant to what Peter Plato said, since I’m sure he agrees that human definitions of murder are often flawed.
 
I repeat something that everyone in this thread knows, except you and that is it is an act of murder to go into an abortion clinic and kill the doctor to prevent an abortion.

Show me a Church teaching that allows such an act. It most certainly does not come under self defence.
CCC 2265: Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm.

Since an abortionist is obviously an unjust aggressor, CCC 2265 applies to the case under discussion. Please note that CCC 2265 does NOT restrict its scope to state action against criminals; it applies equally to private individuals.
 
There is so much confused in your posted replies that it is very difficult to know where to begin. You assume connections that do not need to be the case and from there draw conclusions that are not substantiated.

Take the following regarding the word “malice.”
Not true. “Malice” is not part of definition, though sometimes they add the phrase “with malice aforethought”. But that is nonsense. No one has access to the internal thoughts of the person. A professional hit-man may not feel any “malice” toward the victim.
There is no presumption that a hit man must “feel” anything with regard to the ends he has in mind in order for the act to be malicious. You assume the law must prove the “internal” state of a perpetrator in order to find “malice.” Not true. If the perpetrator intended an evil outcome, that is sufficient to show malice.

In other words, if a killer willed the death of a victim and can provide no exculpatory reasons or evidence, malice is assumed. There is not need to prove that the hit man felt “malice” towards the victim. Nothing “personal” need exist - no feelings of hatred or anger - in order for the hit man to intend the evil of the man’s death for unjustifiable reasons - which is the moral and legal definition of malice, i.e., intending an evil outcome (death of the victim.)
If that is the case then the phrase is superfluous. The law already specifies that killing in self-defense is allowed. But of course, when one points a gun to the attacker’s head and pulls the trigger, then the intent to kill is already there - malice or not. You may try to say: “I did not really want to kill the sucker, I simply shot him point blank in the face. The death was a foreseen, but unintended consequence of pulling the trigger”. And no sane person will accept this cop-out.
If the intent to kill is unjustifiable, then it involves malice (willing the evil end or death of the victim) without just cause. Your example is simply irrelevant. The phrase is not superfluous because killing another person for justifiable reasons is possible and demonstrating any of those would show malice need not exist.
Not so. The presumption of innocense [sic] stipulates that the defense can just sit quietly, and the prosecution must prove its case - beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course, if you are not an American citizen, you might be unaware of this practice. In certain times the base principle was: “it is better for a thousand innocents to suffer needlessly, rather than have one guily escape unpunished”. Today the principle is the opposite. We say: “it is better for a thousand guilty ones to escape unpunished rather than have one innocent to be punished unjustly”. I rather like the second one. Do you?
Actually, neither. I prefer justice is meted out in proper proportion.

I’m not sure what the significance of the above is to your argument, but it is beside the point.
How naive you are. The goverment enforces its laws by force (what a surprise!) - no matter what the population thinks. If the population does not like it, it can resort to “ballots or bullets”, whichever is available, but the final authority is always “brute force”.
Apparently this demonstrates a great deal about the deplorable inefficacy of the education system with regard to the teaching of ethics that seems the norm in modern western societies.

By admitting the above, what you are essentially conceding is that morality does not exist and governments are not, in principle, accountable to any oversight. They essentially inherit, by ascendancy to power, the right to govern in whatever manner they decide. Sheer absurdity.
Not in my opinion. But again, opinions do not count for much, if one does not have the power to do something about it. In Singapore there are laws about caneing someone who puts a chewing gum where it does not belong to. … Most Americans would abhor such a legal system, and most Singaporean would abhor our freedom. So who is right? Which legal system is “objectively” better than the other? It’s all relative, you know.
:rolleyes:.
I included both of them, without “assuming” anything. According to the dictionary here are the synonyms of sentient: “alive, apprehensive, aware, cognizant, mindful, sensible, conscious, ware, witting”. There is no “line in the sand” between these two categories. … There is nothing special about the DNA of humans.
Your assumption is that sentience necessarily includes the ability to examine, intend, foresee, analyze, signify, judge, conceptualize, argue, create, etc., etc.

If there is nothing special about human DNA then you are left bereft of any explanation at all concerning the lack of technology, language development, art, music, mathematics, learning, discourse, development, self-reflection, etc., etc., among non-human animals.
Why on Earth would I need to resort to reading these navel-gazers about something that is perfectly obvious to anyone who is willing to think? These people are still taken seriously as if nothing had happened in the last hundreds and thousands of years. Sheesh.
Of course, you are NOT compelled to read anyone who will challenge or disturb the security of your thinking and show the error found therein since you are content with wallowing in the safe delusion of what is “now certain to be true.”

It must give you great consolation to think that what you are now certain of MUST be true because it is modern and everyone coming before must be wrong because …well…ancient. Much easier than actually figuring out whether or why modern thought is correct or not. Let’s just assume it is because, well, it is modern and we are smart.
 
40.png
Rau:
But Pallas, a 6 week old human (with brain activity) is not capable of any rational thought. Why does this entity attract special respect that the lion-being and the chimpanzee-being (also at similar development stage) do not?
Because having a functioning brain which might develop into a rational entity is a qualitative difference. And because “similis simili gaudet”, which is not actually rational, but we are not fully rational beings. Let emphasize once more: if a mutant chimpanzee would exhibit sufficiently human like rationality, I would gladly extend the “honorary” human status to it.

Prodigal_Son said:
"Murder is an ambiguous term. It could either mean “any type of wrongful killing” or "those things legally defined as ‘murder’ ". It is not merely a legal term.

Lots of terms are used in different contexts. Are you familiar with the phrase: “Nullum crimen sine lege”?
40.png
Prodigal_Son:
You and I agree on the argument, but disagree about whether it applied to fetuses.
Even a minor agreement is better than none. 🙂
40.png
Prodigal_Son:
I am very confused. Are you saying there are absolute legal norms, but no absolute moral norms? Or are you saying that there are absolute moral norms, but that nations tend to ignore these?
Neither. There are no “absolute” moral norms. There is no “natural” moral law. Some kinds of behaviors are socially acceptable, others are not. Some of these socially unacceptable behaviors are codified in the legal system as crimes with certain punishments. Others would carry some social stigma (getting ostracized); yet some others are merely bad manners. However, no one is “obliged” to agree with a different society’s code of acceptance. In the stone age there was no problem with cannibalism. In ancient Egypt marrying one’s brother/sister was acceptable in the families of the pharaohs. In medieval Japan the samurai class had the right to kill anyone who did not display the proper respect. And so on… different societies develop their own code of behavior. One may agree or disagree with them.

[/quote]

This pretty much sums up the informational value of your posts.
Peter Plato:
By admitting the above, what you are essentially conceding is that morality does not exist and governments are not, in principle, accountable to any oversight. They essentially inherit, by ascendancy to power, the right to govern in whatever manner they decide. Sheer absurdity.
Reality is sometimes absurd.

An example from the wonderful book by Allen Sherman (“The rape of the APE*”. The abbreviation stands for the American Puritan Ethics). In the US the goverment allows us to play “Monopoly” with our properties. We paid for the property, have all the papers to prove it, we pay our taxes on it. So we are supposed to believe that we “own” our property free and clear. But the goverment has “eminent domain”, and can confiscate your propery on almost any pretext with some compensation, and you cannot do anything about it. The government can declare a state of emergency, and take away all your “rights”.

The goverment can “arrest” your car, your house or your property if there is a mere suspicion that you might have used drug-related money to acquire them. It does not need to prosecute you, does not even have to bring charges against you. Your property is gone, and you need to spend some serious money to get it back, if you can afford it. A guy had an small airplane and operated a charter business. Someone bought a trip, and had a small valise with him. Unbeknownst to the pilot there was a lot of money in it. There was no suspicion of any wrongdoing, but some agents surmised that a lot of cash could be used for purchasing drugs. So the airplane was confiscated.

And the US is the best country on Earth, offering the most amount of freedom. And just try to grow hemp on your “own” land. So I suggest that you educate yourself about reality of how the goverment operates. This was just for your edification, has nothing to do with the topic itself. Maybe you will learn from it.
Peter Plato:
It must give you great consolation to think that what you are now certain of MUST be true because it is modern and everyone coming before must be wrong because …well…ancient.
Nonsense. There are two kinds of fools. One of them says: “this is old and therefore good”. The other kind says: “this is new and therefore better”. Everything must be investigated in a detached fashion, considering the “con”-s and the “pro”-s, and then let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately the ancient musings of Plato, Aristotle and their followers have only historical interest. It is interesting to see how people speculated about reality when there was no method to investigate it. Aristotle believed that the brain was simply the organ to cool the blood. In the Dark Ages people believed that diseases are caused by demons - and this belief is still around in some circles. I would not be willing to waste my time on the healing methods of Aesculapius or Paracelsus. For some reason cupping (scarification) or venesection is out of fashion these days, or placing leeches in the armpit to remove the excessive blood. More happened in the last one hundred years than during all the preceding millenia.
 
Because having a functioning brain which might develop into a rational entity is a qualitative difference. And because “similis simili gaudet”, which is not actually rational, but we are not fully rational beings. Let emphasize once more: if a mutant chimpanzee would exhibit sufficiently human like rationality, I would gladly extend the “honorary” human status to it.
I dare say that the benchmark of “sufficient human like rationality” would under study readily collapse to “are human”! As we know chimpanzees are capable of rational behaviour. (Goodness knows how we would resolve what is “sufficient”!)

The criteria then that you set for an entity to earn respect which would make killing an “X-being” wrong are that the entity:
  • is capable of developing into a rational (to a human-like level) entity; and
  • has developed to the point of brain activity.
Where this appears fragile to me is that you give respect during the step from brain activity to rational entity, but not during the one from conception to brain activity. This seems fragile (and arbitrary) because the promise of rational entity exists no less at conception than it does at brain activity (probability of survival ignored). That the brain activity matters to you, but that its potential (from conception) does not, strikes me as odd. Nevertheless, it is good to know that you find most abortions still wrong, if only by virtue of their timing.

Many questions arise. But some are:
  1. Why is the human standard of rationality (clearly the highest) the only one deserving of a right to be protected from killing?
  2. Why is the potential (for human-like rationality) important? Why should we care about potential?
  3. Does a living but “injured” human being, less capable of rationality than a chimpanzee, deserve the protection against killing?
 
Ignatius;12962278:
Originally Posted by Prodigal_Son View Post
  1. If pro-lifers genuinely believed that an embryo is a person, then they would consider embryos worth killing – or dying – for.
  2. Pro-lifers do not consider embryos worth killing or dying for.
  3. Therefore, pro-lifers do not believe that embryos are people.
The reasoning is specious, completely fallacious and ignores the foundational fact that is the reason that abortion is wrong. The principal involved is the prohibition against Murder. The reason that abortion is wrong is that murder is wrong and so Killing those innocent unborn children is wrong. The reason murdering a abortion doctors is wrong is because murder is wrong.
It is perfectly consistent if you are willing to do an honest analysis, but they are being dishonest and ignoring the foundational principal that it is based on.

Murder is a legal term. As long as abortion is legal it cannot be called “murder”. Just like defending oneself and others is a legally allowed action, and therefore it is not a murder. Just like the intentional killing in a war is not a murder. Also state sanctioned executions are not murders. Be careful to use the proper terminology.

.
You are in error. Murder was recognized as an evil before there were any laws.

Again, the op argument is specious, completely fallacious and ignores the foundational fact that is the reason that abortion is wrong. The principal involved is the prohibition against Murder. The reason that abortion is wrong is that murder is wrong and so Killing those innocent unborn children is wrong. The reason murdering a abortion doctors is wrong is because murder is wrong.
It is perfectly consistent if you are willing to do an honest analysis, but they are being dishonest and ignoring the foundational principal that it is based on.
 
Why on Earth would I need to resort to reading these navel-gazers about something that is perfectly obvious to anyone who is willing to think? These people are still taken seriously as if nothing had happened in the last hundreds and thousands of years. Sheesh.
As opposed to taking you seriously as if EVERYTHING has changed in the “last hundreds and thousands of years” such that positively EVERYTHING (not merely scientific “stuff,” but also art, metaphysics, ethics, literature, design, etc., etc.) older than a few hundred years can be safely dismissed.

There appears to be some serious backtracking going on from your position above that Aquinas, Aristotle and Co were mere “navel gazers” because… well… “they are not modern,” to your poetic “two kinds of fools” monologue below.

In case you missed your own fallacious thinking, you didn’t engage with Feser’s articles on the pretext that he invokes Aristotle and Aquinas who, according to you, must be navel gazers BECAUSE they are from ages removed from the present by more than several hundred years. It isn’t as if you proposed (or even could) an argument for why their (and Feser’s) accounts are misconceived, you only relied on the “argument” that they are not modern and modern thinking, therefore, must have by now moved way beyond them.

Sounds just like argument that your second kind of fool would propose. See below.
Nonsense. There are two kinds of fools. One of them says: “this is old and therefore good”. The other kind says: “this is new and therefore better”. Everything must be investigated in a detached fashion, considering the “con”-s and the “pro”-s, and then let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately the ancient musings of Plato, Aristotle and their followers have only historical interest. It is interesting to see how people speculated about reality when there was no method to investigate it. Aristotle believed that the brain was simply the organ to cool the blood. In the Dark Ages people believed that diseases are caused by demons - and this belief is still around in some circles. I would not be willing to waste my time on the healing methods of Aesculapius or Paracelsus. For some reason cupping (scarification) or venesection is out of fashion these days, or placing leeches in the armpit to remove the excessive blood. More happened in the last one hundred years than during all the preceding millenia.
We aren’t, in this thread, speaking of medicine or science now are we? We are involved in a discussion of the metaphysical grounds for ethical beliefs. So bringing up medieval notions of blood-letting doesn’t refute my point (following Feser, Aquinas and Aristotle) that rationality is not reducible to sentience. You rebuttal is about as effective as “placing leeches in the armpit” to repair a gunshot to the brain. Nice attempt at “dodging the bullet” - so to speak - but if comments about “navel gazers” is all you have, I’ll consider your “modern musing” a pathetic attempt to severely bloodlet your statement that “everything must be investigated in a detached manner.” Detached from everything except your own chronological snobbery it appears.

Feser made some difficult points to contest in his article and subsequent blog posts. Apparently, you tacitly agree (by your unwillingness to attempt any comment on them at all) that they are difficult (impossible perhaps?) to dispute.

You are being given another opportunity to carefully examine and rebut the larger metaphysical point on the difference between rationality and mere sentience. You won’t disappoint us, will you, by resorting to irrelevant references concerning ancient healing methods or medieval bloodletting?
 
I work in philosophy, and – more than once – I’ve heard pro-choice philosophers make the following argument:
  1. If pro-lifers genuinely believed that an embryo is a person, then they would consider embryos worth killing – or dying – for.
  2. Pro-lifers do not consider embryos worth killing or dying for.
  3. Therefore, pro-lifers do not believe that embryos are people.
This strikes me as a good argument, so far as it goes. It’s an ad hominem, obviously – it doesn’t prove anything about abortion, only something about people’s beliefs about abortion. But what should we, as pro-lifers, do about it?

Clearly, we think it’s morally permissible to seriously hurt (even kill) another person in order to protect a child from getting killed. Good. But we also claim that a fetus is a child. And yet we loudly insist that it is deeply wrong to hurt – or even sabotage! – abortionists. I don’t get it.

If we believe these are PEOPLE being killed in abortions, then why don’t we start an uprising? I’m serious. Why don’t we break into abortion clinics and steal their equipment? Why don’t we stand in front of abortion clinics and not let people pass? Why don’t we fight like we would fight for our own children, if someone tried to kill THEM?

There may be very good answers to these questions. I certainly don’t advocate hasty actions, and I strongly condemn most attacks on abortion clinics, because they seem to me badly thought-out, ineffective, and politically disastrous. But a sort of “anti-abortion intifada” seems like a logical step. It would show that we put out money where our mouth is.

Am I completely nuts here? I am honestly perplexed by the whole thing.
Half a loaf is better than nothing.
Nothing is better than heaven.
Therefore half a loaf is better than heaven.

Similar logic.
 
You are in error. Murder was recognized as an evil before there were any laws.

Again, the op argument is specious, completely fallacious and ignores the foundational fact that is the reason that abortion is wrong. The principal involved is the prohibition against Murder. The reason that abortion is wrong is that murder is wrong and so Killing those innocent unborn children is wrong. The reason murdering a abortion doctors is wrong is because murder is wrong.
It is perfectly consistent if you are willing to do an honest analysis, but they are being dishonest and ignoring the foundational principal that it is based on.
Well, no, actually. The OP concedes that murder (or homicide,) defined as unjustified killing, is wrong. The question being asked is whether the fact that abortionists are killing innocent human beings amounts to a warrant or justification for the use of proportionate force (killing them to stop them killing innocent human beings) to end their murderous enterprise. It is the same argument which justifies killing an enemy assailant in a war. The fact that abortionists (like combatants in war) are engaged in killing nullifies (the argument goes) their own innocent status and, therefore, (if the argument works) justifies using proportionate force on them.

Understand that I am not, hereby, endorsing the argument, but merely pointing out that you have missed the point of it.

You can’t dismiss it on the pretext that it endorses murder - the point of the argument is to demonstrate how killing abortionists wouldn’t be murder, but, rather, would be justifiable homicide. That is, if the argument works.
 
Neither killing nor dying are necessary to prevent abortions, that is the main problem with the argument. That being said your pro-abortion friends are right in that not enough pro-lifers really believe that embryos are people. If 100+ million of us truly in the US believed embryos are people (not just intellectually believed it) the majority of abortions could be eliminated peacefully. Think what would happen if every prolife person actually voted in elections. If there were a thousand people praying and holding signs at abortion clinics every day. If people were to give generously to support charities to help pregnant women. If we were to stand up sexual immorality in our culture.

So I think you friends have a point in that many pro-life people don’t act with any conviction on their belief that embryos are people. We just stand by and let it continue. Many pro-lifers dedicate their life to minimizing the number of abortions and we shouldn’t lose sight of their efforts. Just not enough of us follow their examples.
 
It’s an ad hominem, obviously
Mh…
may I object that demonstrating that pro life sincerely believe what they say is of vital importance if law making is involved? Ad hominem would be " you are pro life because you blindly follow the church / the Pope / the politician / the imam", because it would be a generic accusation not related with the problem. Also, just saying “you don’t really believe it” would be an ad hominem because it’s a not argumented accusation.

But the reasoning you exposed is worth to debate. After all, how can pro choice be persuaded to give up something they consider a civil right if pro life seems to act like they do not really believe in their position?
Neither killing nor dying are necessary to prevent abortions, that is the main problem with the argument.
I could object that most people ( both pro life and pro choice ) would immediately jump in help if they see an adult about to crack the skull of a toddler with an axe, no matter if the law says it’s ok to do so. And a large number would be willing to shoot the axe-wielder adult to stop him, if it’s the only way.
My first immediate thought would be “chances of success”.
The Cathar crusade took place because the Church could rally an overwhelming majority, some of whom probably did have less devout reasons for getting involved, that had a very high chance of accomplishing its goals; the annihilation of Gnosticism in Europe and the annexation of Cathar territories.
While I understand the pro-life movement in the US is far stronger than in other parts of the western world it is not so strong it can enforce itself by force. Perhaps a slight overreaction but if need be the state governments could rally an army to defend abortion clinics, just as it sent security forces in to protect the black students at Little Rock all those years ago to ensure its will would be enforced. Pro-Lifers do not have this ability.
Any violent action taken against the pro-choice movement will almost certainly meet with failure in the long term, the pro life movement simply does not have either the popular support or resources required for such an endeavor.
The most effective course of action for the pro life movement at present is to promote itself by licit means in the hope of causing a popular change of opinion. Only then can it ensure its will can be enforced, by force of arms if required.
Well…
yes. I guess that is the point, power balance. I agree.
 
I could object that most people ( both pro life and pro choice ) would immediately jump in help if they see an adult about to crack the skull of a toddler with an axe, no matter if the law says it’s ok to do so. And a large number would be willing to shoot the axe-wielder adult to stop him, if it’s the only way.
All you have to do is not let the doctor enter the clinic to stop the abortion, violence is completely unnecessary. Why would you kill the doctor when you could block his access to the baby? The argument makes no sense. Lethal force to protect another is not justified if non lethal measures can still save the life.

Your example would be better if you stated that everybody knew that the adult was going to crack the skull of the toddler with an axe, but they watched him buy the axe, drive to where the toddler is, walk up to the toddler, restrain the toddler, raise the axe in the air and then decide to act.
 
I could object that most people ( both pro life and pro choice ) would immediately jump in help if they see an adult about to crack the skull of a toddler with an axe, no matter if the law says it’s ok to do so. And a large number would be willing to shoot the axe-wielder adult to stop him, if it’s the only way.
This was the point I was addressing in post #69.

Most people would “immediately jump in” and “shoot the axe-wielder” if they suspected malice or willfulness to do moral harm on the part of the perpetrator. Imagine if the hypothetical axe-wielder were a four or five year old who was playing a game with the axe, but holding it menacingly over the skull of a toddler. Most adults would not, in that case, be willing to “shoot the axe-wielder” even given the perilous situation for the toddler.

The crucial question is whether abortionists are, in fact, and in their minds, committing a moral act of malice? They view an abortion (sincerely, one would hope,) not as an act of murder, but through some other lens. The question is whether they are correct in that view and whether they are morally culpable or merely “ignorant” in much the same way that a five year old is ignorant of the implications of embedding an axe in the head of a toddler. The law in many countries actually supports their contention that abortion is not morally wrong, which leads to the bigger question of whether governments can even be held morally liable.

Pallas Athene appears to take the view that ruling bodies are, in principle, the de facto moral authorities whenever moral issues arise. The problem with that view is that PA implicitly takes on the moral position that essentially states that it is PA’s considered moral opinion that whatever a government decides IS morally right and acceptable as far as PA is concerned. That is the moral view that PA is proposing as a legitimate moral position.

In other words, PA would have to concede that what transpired in Nazi Germany was morally licit and not to be contested in any way, not merely according to German National Socialism, but according to PA, as well. PA is tacitly affirming as morally licit any and all moral actions that are undertaken by any ruling body, including - for example - Nazi Germany, because PA is willing to wholeheartedly endorse the ethical position that “moral” IS TO BE DEFINED AS, essentially, whatever a government, anywhere at anytime, decides is “right.”
 
Ignatius;12965917:
Pallas Athene;12962392:
Murder is a legal
term. As long as abortion is legal it cannot be called “murder”.

You are in error. Murder was recognized as an evil before there were any laws.
.

Well, no, actually. The OP concedes that murder (or homicide,) defined as unjustified killing, is wrong. .
If you read the thread (quoted above for your convenience) you’ll see that I wasn’t addressing the OP but Pallas’ statement. Thanks for confirming what I my point, though.
 
All you have to do is not let the doctor enter the clinic to stop the abortion, violence is completely unnecessary. Why would you kill the doctor when you could block his access to the baby?
Because, if abortion is legal, after a short time cops will arrive and arrest the ones stopping the doctor, so - if abortion is not illegal in the country - the only way to stop him would be killing him. Or, at the very very least, destroy the clinic.
The argument makes no sense.
The argument would make no sense in a country were abortion is illegal and to stop the abortionist is as simple as calling the police. But if the police will arrest you, how can you peacefully stop him?
The crucial question is whether abortionists are, in fact, and in their minds, committing a moral act of malice? They view an abortion (sincerely, one would hope,) not as an act of murder, but through some other lens.
I never heard that argument before. Not by a christian. Usually they mention the suppressed voice of conscience and innate knowledge of good and evil.
 
If you read the thread (quoted above for your convenience) you’ll see that I wasn’t addressing the OP but Pallas’ statement. Thanks for confirming what I my point, though.
That wasn’t the point of yours that I was addressing.

You said (highlighted **red **for your convenience) …
Again, the op argument is specious, completely fallacious and ignores the foundational fact that is the reason that abortion is wrong., The principal involved is the prohibition against Murder. The reason that abortion is wrong is that murder is wrong and so Killing those innocent unborn children is wrong. The reason murdering a abortion doctors is wrong is because murder is wrong.
It is perfectly consistent if you are willing to do an honest analysis, but they are being dishonest and ignoring the foundational principal that it is based on.
 
I never heard that argument before. Not by a christian. Usually they mention the suppressed voice of conscience and innate knowledge of good and evil.
It isn’t an argument. It is giving abortionists the benefit of the doubt that they are acting in good faith and not deliberately perpetrating an elaborate moral fraud.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top