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ConstantineTG
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The Truth is Jesus Christ.Sounds like X-Files…The Truth is out there.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well least thats not an issue which came up yet.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well then, we should encourage the OP to go explore Orthodoxy. If we are confident that they do not have the truth, what are we afraid of? He will not find it there and he will satisfy his curiosity. If he finds Christ there, then good. Who are we to stand in the way lest we find ourselves fighting with God himself.
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GaryTaylor
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I would contend you can find Christ in many aspects of Christianity. For myself at this point this wouldn’t make a difference. However, I do not know much about the OP. So I am skeptical about sending confirmed Catholics elsewhere.
Is it common practice in the EO to advise members whom receive the Sacrament to go check out the CC?
Is it common practice in the EO to advise members whom receive the Sacrament to go check out the CC?
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ConstantineTG
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The priest I speak with doesn’t proselytize me and keeps reminding me that no matter what I do, what I choose, where I go, he will love me and be my friend. There is no air of “Orthodoxy or nothing” from him. I told him when I met him I am interested to learn about Orthodoxy, not converting. He has spent time with me, more than any Catholic priest I know (and not for a lack of trying).
I can’t say if every priest would act the same way. I’m meeting with him again in a couple of hours, I will ask him this question.
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GaryTaylor
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You are talking to a Father, So how does your situation compare to the OP? The Spiritual Director was the advice. Since he’s receiving Communion regular. I would have to assume he speaks to the Priest. About what I do not know. Confession definately.
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TrueLight
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Constantine, my dear… with all due respect…
No Catholic should be encouraging someone to seek truth elsewhere, even if we’re speaking of the Apostolic Churches.
To be frank, that can cause scandal and confusion.
There can be only one choice for a Catholic.
It is perfectly natural for an Orthodox to argue for his church, but it is not natural for a Catholic to convince someone to go elsewhere.
I am reasonably sure if I went on an Orthodox forum and asked a similar question, I wouldn’t have Orthodox members telling me I should try out the Catholic Church.
Your struggles are your own, but please do not take anyone along with you.
:tsktsk:
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Adonia
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You should consider the Orthodox Church. To me it is not a big problem and if you feel spiritually that is where you beong, by all means you need to explore that option.
As a lifelong Latin Rite adherant, I am totally comfortable where I am. I have attended Orthodox services and the only thing I didn’t like about it, was it seems to me the excessive vereration of the Icons and such. I also didn’t like the constant coming and going of people during the worship service. Other than tose two things the liturgy is very beautiful.
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Adonia
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Better that this person goes to Orthodoxy than to the protestant side. No? And besides, who knows, at some point the great schism could end and our friend could be totally with us.
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IbnFiktur
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Or he could learn about Orthodoxy in a respectful manner without the intention of converting? I don’t get why that hasn’t been presented as a viable option by anyone but Constantine…
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Vico
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Conciliar documents of Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus Dogmatic Constitution) and Vatican II (Lumen Gentium Dogmatic Constitution) are there in addition to direct statements of Bl. Pope John Paul II. These also contain details and other references.
It is not horrifying that the whole Church does not meet together and make a unified statement?
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TrueLight
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Because the question is why should someone “choose” Orthodoxy over Catholicism. This is not an academic exploration. He is feeling the tugging of the Holy Spirit but since the churches are similar, he wants to know why he should choose one over the other.
What I thought I would see here was arguments from Catholics on why he should choose Catholicism and arguments from Orthodox on why he should choose Orthodoxy.
I didn’t expect to see Catholics pretty much saying, “Try out both”.
Does the fact that some Orthodox see the Pope, and Catholicism in general, as heretical, make a difference to Catholics?
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Nine_Two
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While I agree that the Orthodox Church may authoritatively say that it is in the Church, that is only because I accept that it has the authority to make such pronouncements. But it isn’t an argument that holds water as soon as one is in a situation where not everyone is in agreement on that authority.
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Nine_Two
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Actually, I would expect most members to advise the individual to examine the Catholic Church. Otherwise it is like asking someone to make a decision without all the information available.
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TrueLight
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I can’t say I know for sure what you mean by “examine”, but it sounds reasonable.
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Nine_Two
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They do indeed contain such references, but not necessarily to the specific claims made. The problem with third-hand references is that you are relying on at least two different people to interpret them for you before they even get to you.
The Whole Church has met together to make unified statements. And here I use the term as defined by my Church - a useless path of argument to make.
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Vico
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It is the Divine mission of the Church to preserve the entire deposit of faith and to preach and explain it authoritatively.
The reason for the Assumption dogma is that the bishops asked for it, as seen here in Munificentissimus Deus:6. Thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin, the minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven would also be defined by the Church’s supreme teaching authority.
- Actually it was seen that not only individual Catholics, but also those who could speak for nations or ecclesiastical provinces, and even a considerable number of the Fathers of the Vatican Council, urgently petitioned the Apostolic See to this effect.
- During the course of time such postulations and petitions did not decrease but rather grew continually in number and in urgency. In this cause there were pious crusades of prayer. Many outstanding theologians eagerly and zealously carried out investigations on this subject either privately or in public ecclesiastical institutions and in other schools where the sacred disciplines are taught. Marian Congresses, both national and international in scope, have been held in many parts of the Catholic world. These studies and investigations have brought out into even clearer light the fact that the dogma of the Virgin Mary’s Assumption into heaven is contained in the deposit of Christian faith entrusted to the Church. They have resulted in many more petitions, begging and urging the Apostolic See that this truth be solemnly defined.
The reason for the Immaculate Conception dogma is give by the Magisterium in Ineffabilis Deus:These truths, so generally accepted and put into practice by the faithful, indicate how zealously the Roman Church, mother and teacher of all Churches, has continued to teach this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin. Yet the more important actions of the Church deserve to be mentioned in detail. For such dignity and authority belong to the Church that she alone is the center of truth and of Catholic unity. It is the Church in which alone religion has been inviolably preserved and from which all other Churches must receive the tradition of the Faith.[3]
The same Roman Church, therefore, desired nothing more than by the most persuasive means to state, to protect, to promote and to defend the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. …
Also, the reason for the Immaculate Conception dogma, at the time of its declaration, was perceived as a fight against Semi-palegianism. The Catholic Church defined (at Trent) actual and sanctifying grace in order to make clear the existence of both gratuity of grace and the integrity of human agency (will). Palegius insisted that grace is not necessary. Later Semi-Palegians assert that man can make the first move towards God. For example, Cassian expressed that God’s bestowal of grace could be a response to the good efforts of human persons. But the exact opposite is true: the good effort of human persons is always a response to God’s bestowal of grace. (As taught by Augustine, upheld at Ephesus.) In the Immaculate Conception dogma we see that the gift of grace was given by God to the Virgin Mary from the first moment of her conception, and she was saved by Christ.
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Vico
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The conciliar documents are given as the direct reference to the statements made and directly apply. Are you are familiar with them?
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ConstantineTG
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My friend the Orthodox priest told me that if one of his parishioners said they wanted to explore Catholicism, he would tell them to go buy a book about it because he is not a good source about Catholicism, and advice them to go experience the Mass.
As to talking to a priest, why can’t the OP go talk to a priest? He should talk to a Catholic priest and an Orthodox priest. If he is interested in the truth, he will find the truth. He will read books, ask questions and pray hard. God will not turn his back on those who truly seek Him. And if we are confident that God wants to lead all souls to the Catholic Church, why are we afraid here?
What are you afraid of? Again, if the fullness of truth is in the Catholic Church, shouldn’t that truth be found? Is there any other truth? I’ve been to a Pentecostal Church and invited JWs into my living room and I listened intently. Did I convert? No. If one is interested in two or more Churches or denominations and sects, better for them to explore all and satisfy their curiosity now, rather than keep wondering if the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If one is to make an informed choice about their own faith, why wouldn’t you let them see what is out there? If you are not secure with what you have, then you should question if what you have is the truth. Cults act this way, they control their people and not allow them to go beyond their own community because they know people will realize the shallowness of their perceived truths. As an Apostolic Church and Apostolic Faith, why are we afraid? If people can be sifted away from the Church, then their hearts and minds were never with the Church to begin with. You know what they say about things you love and them coming back.
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ConstantineTG
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If the Holy Spirit is tugging him to the Orthodox Church, why should any of us stand in the way? If we believe God only leads people to the Catholic Church, why are we afraid for him to examine Orthodoxy?Because the question is why should someone “choose” Orthodoxy over Catholicism. This is not an academic exploration. He is feeling the tugging of the Holy Spirit but since the churches are similar, he wants to know why he should choose one over the other.
What I thought I would see here was arguments from Catholics on why he should choose Catholicism and arguments from Orthodox on why he should choose Orthodoxy.
I didn’t expect to see Catholics pretty much saying, “Try out both”.
Does the fact that some Orthodox see the Pope, and Catholicism in general, as heretical, make a difference to Catholics?
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