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lssanjose
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Well said, ConstantineTG
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TrueLight
Guest
The problem with your advice is that you are speaking from a place of someone who is disillusioned with the Catholic Church, so there should be full disclosure. That’s only fair. As I said, if the Orthodox on this forum come and tell the OP why Orthodoxy is “Holy” Orthodoxy, they have every right and that is what I would expect.
As a Catholic, if a convert expresses interest in the CC, then my role is to tell him about my joy in being part of the CC. If he has specific questions about the Orthodox and I know some of the answers, then of course I would tell him for informational purposes and from a Catholic perspective. Some of the responses on here are from people who identify as Catholic and yet they are giving two options?
If someone comes to me and tells me they are deciding between Protestantism and Catholicism, as a Catholic, I’m going to tell them about Catholicism. Let the Protestants or the internet rave about the joys of Protestantism.
God will have his way either way. I guess you don’t anyone who has been discouraged by advice from someone else, or someone who has been led astray by others?
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lssanjose
Guest
It’s not about disillusion. It’s about having faith (trust) in God’s ability to properly direct a soul, to him. If Pope John Paul II commanded us Latin rite Catholics to look into the Eastern churches (Catholic, AND Orthodoxy), for enrichment, I think going against this advice, would be contrary against the blessed leader.
This aside, you’re preventing the exercise of free will to discern what God truly wants for him, or her. I just say, go ahead, and check em out. But, hear me out, and grab a bible with you, on your path. That’s all we can do … remember: forced love can be considered rape…
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I am not advising him to choose one Church over another. That is HIS decision. Not yours, not mine, not anybody else’s. Ultimately it is his salvation that is at stake. He shouldn’t convert out of fear or out of persuasion from other people. He should freely accept the faith where he has found Christ. If you think that Catholicism is better than Orthodoxy, then it should be proven and put to the test. How can one know that Catholicism is better than Orthodoxy if one doesn’t examine both? I ask the OP to examine both and make his own choice. I am not asking him to take the path I am taking. My path is my own, my situation is not his situation. Therefore, my decision, whatever it will be in the future, will be for me and my situation, not him. I will not advice my decision to anyone else. If anyone Catholic wants to explore Orthodox, I will advice them to go ahead and explore. If anyone Orthodox wants to explore Catholicism, I will advice them to go ahead and explore. Where they go, it should not be up to me. People should go where their heart takes them, not where I or any other person tells them to go.
Don’t mistake my intention. I am not asking anyone to go one way or another. If the OP wants to choose, they should make that choice themselves. I can only encourage them to take steps in aiding that decision, but it is dishonest of me to make that decision for them. Their view of Catholicism and Orthodoxy will be different from my view, and will be different from your view. So if I share my view, what value is it to them? My issues are not their issues. The best for them really is to go to a priest from both sides, bring forth their own issues, get their questions answered, and then decide.
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TrueLight
Guest
C. knows what I’m talking about when it comes to disillusionment.
It’s one thing to look at our Eastern traditions because obviously Christianity started in the East and there is a lot of good theology. However, the Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, and we can’t even fulfill our obligation at an Orthodox Church (generally), plus we have Eastern Catholic Churches, where anyone interested in Eastern theology can explore it there.
Furthermore, some of the theology is contradictory to Catholic doctrine as they see some of our dogma as “innovations”.
Why is it okay to steer people there or ofter both as viable options?
But I understand somewhat why it might seem okay, since the documents aren’t so clear.
On the contrary, the Orthodox are very clear on what they believe.
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lssanjose
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ConstantineTG
Guest
As noted in my reply to the original version of your post, I am not telling him about either. I am encouraging him to go and seek answers from both sides, to explore both sides. Talk to priests, read books, and most importantly pray, pray, pray (and fast too!).
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TrueLight
Guest
Gotcha. I was typing while you were typing.
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lssanjose
Guest
Well, a lot of Apostolic Christianity is seemingly antithetical to Protestant teachings, on a very general level. Protestants going back to the Catholic church; or, heading to Orthodoxy, may typically go there, based on their own decision/choosing, after much thought and prayer. Remember, the decision is theirs to make, not ours (ours meaning us, excluding the one discerning)
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TrueLight
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It’s common sense that they need to make the decision. I don’t think that needs to be said.
My problem is not with the Orthodox describing why Orthodoxy is awesome. My problem is with Catholics not explaining why Catholicism is awesome. Kudos to those who explained why Catholicism is the way to go.
When I was discerning the Catholic Church, I looked at both Churches and I even visited an Orthodox Church. I read posts, both the Orthodox viewpoint and the Catholic viewpoint, and discussed Orthodoxy with some Orthodox members on this forum. At the same time, I also discussed Catholicism with Catholic members.
Then I made my decision.
If I had seen a bunch of Catholics posting as if it didn’t make a difference which Church I converted to, I sure would be confused about whether I should convert or not, as apparently its members didn’t care what I did.
So…when I start repeating myself in a thread, it’s time to go.
Have fun!
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I am not a theologian, I’m a business major who works as a business analyst. I can only make a comparison to marketing. If one person loves Coke, it doesn’t matter how many Pepsi commercials they watch, they will still love Coke. They can go eat in a restaurant that only serves Pepsi and actually drink Pepsi, but at the end of the day they will still drink Coke whenever they can.
I know it is a poor and imperfect metaphor, but the point is if our “product” is definitely the better product, then we shouldn’t be afraid to lose our “customer”. Better for them to get it out of their system of wondering what the other product tastes like, rather than live a life wondering and bothered with what they have, continuously asking and doubting if where they are is really where the truth is.
I know it is a poor and imperfect metaphor, but the point is if our “product” is definitely the better product, then we shouldn’t be afraid to lose our “customer”. Better for them to get it out of their system of wondering what the other product tastes like, rather than live a life wondering and bothered with what they have, continuously asking and doubting if where they are is really where the truth is.
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GaryTaylor
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You know how you went and spoke to your friend the Priest? Thats what the OP should do. Along with reading, asking questions and drinking Coke or Pepsi. And without a doubt CAF will help.
As to the Truth apparently we have an idea of that since the OP cannot receive Communion in the EO. And do you know why he cannot receive communion in the EO? Well one would have to accept their teaching as the Truth. So apparently there is another version of the Truth. And those articles of faith have been touched on here. Since there seems to be a concern perhaps that is why God sent him to the CC for the Truth without an explaination, and to CAF for the explaination. What a Blessing I would say.
As to the Truth apparently we have an idea of that since the OP cannot receive Communion in the EO. And do you know why he cannot receive communion in the EO? Well one would have to accept their teaching as the Truth. So apparently there is another version of the Truth. And those articles of faith have been touched on here. Since there seems to be a concern perhaps that is why God sent him to the CC for the Truth without an explaination, and to CAF for the explaination. What a Blessing I would say.
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TrueLight
Guest
Sorry, I had to come back and respond to this.
The OP is not a customer yet. If the OP is inundated with Coke marketing and Pepsi does not get any of the market share, there is a good chance that the OP will try the Coke and stick with it for a while.
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Vico
Guest
As Catholics we have an obligation to avoid indifferentism. Blessed Pope John Paul II wrote:There are people who in the face of the difficulties or because they consider that the first ecumenical endeavours have brought negative results would have liked to turn back. Some even express the opinion that these efforts are harmful to the cause of the Gospel, are leading to a further rupture in the Church, are causing confusion of ideas in questions of faith and morals and are ending up with a specific indifferentism. It is perhaps a good thing that the spokesmen for these opinions should express their fears. However, in this respect also, correct limits must be maintained. It is obvious that this new stage in the Church’s life demands of us a faith that is particularly aware, profound and responsible. True ecumenical activity means openness, drawing closer, availability for dialogue, and a shared investigation of the truth in the full evangelical and Christian sense; but in no way does it or can it mean giving up or in any way diminishing the treasures of divine truth that the Church has constantly confessed and taught. To all who, for whatever motive, would wish to dissuade the Church from seeking the universal unity of Christians the question must once again be put: Have we the right not to do it? Can we fail to have trust-in spite of all human weakness and all the faults of past centuries-in our Lord’s grace as revealed recently through what the Holy Spirit said and we heard during the Council? If we were to do so, we would deny the truth concerning ourselves that was so eloquently expressed by the Apostle: "By the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace towards me was not in vain"19.
vatican.va/edocs/ENG0218/_P7.HTM
We have from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH: THIRD QUESTION
Why was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?
RESPONSE
The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.[11]
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html
vatican.va/edocs/ENG0218/_P7.HTM
We have from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH: THIRD QUESTION
Why was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?
RESPONSE
The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.[11]
“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”[12].
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html
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ConstantineTG
Guest
We have great members in CAF. But I would be troubled if someone makes a decision on one Church over another, regardless of what the choices are, based on an internet forum.
If the OP is curious about both products, then why not give both a try. That is all I am saying. Whether he chooses one or another, that is his choice. Its not my job to market, I can only give what I think is the best and honest advice I can give.Sorry, I had to come back and respond to this.
The OP is not a customer yet. If the OP is inundated with Coke marketing and Pepsi does not get any of the market share, there is a good chance that the OP will try the Coke and stick with it for a while.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
I agree wholeheartedly.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Yes, they are documents created by the same organization that is trying to use them as proof that they are The Church.
This has as much validity to an argument as if I declared myself King of Tajikistan, and referenced as proof a speech I made, as well as a couple of documents written by an organization (called The Royal Court of Tajikistan, of course) which I lead.
Simply put it isn’t a valid argument in and of itself, whether or not it is true.
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Vico
Guest
It is an explaination. The dogma of the Catholic Church is that it has the teaching authority. Catholics are bound to accept the certain teachings of the magisterium. Individuals, in general, will either accept it or not, it is not necessary for them to understand it, in fact some do not have the capacity and others have not the inclination.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Me too thats why I sent him to the Priest.
There you have it…me too.
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KnitNut
Guest
To continue ConstantineTG’s consumer analogy, I’d place a lot more stock in a detailed review that covers the highs AND the lows honestly, than in some happy-clappy “joys of” infomercial. A seeker should be encouraged to examine the product thoroughly and come to grips with the strengths and the weaknesses prior to buying. More Truth, less buyer’s remorse.
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