Why shouldn't abortion have legal consequences?

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pragmatist91

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As most of you have heard, Donald Trump said there should be a penalty for abortion. After making the statement he quickly back away (allegedly because the pro-life community criticized him for that remark as well). I have not looked into the issue enough to know if the pro-life critics of that policy were Catholics or just liberal protestants.

But to those Catholics who disagree with Trump, why shouldn’t there be a criminal penalty for abortion? The Church has always taught that life should be protected from conception until natural death. I personally think abortion should be outlawed and treated as 1st degree murder because that’s exactly what it is: a premeditated homicide.
 
The argument that women must be punished for abortion if it is illegal has never been accepted by any mainstream pro-life organization. Pro-life organizations consider women to be the second victims of abortion.

Not only that, but before Roe v Wade, abortion laws punished abortionists, not women. If abortion is illegal, abortionists are the ones who risk fines and jail. If there are no abortionists to do abortions, abortion will cease to be a problem.

The idea that if we make abortion illegal, we must send women to jail is a pro-abortion talking point, not a pro-life tenet. It is always put forward by pro-abortionists as an argument for keeping abortion legal. It’s a strawman argument by the pro-abortion side,
 
JimG said:
The argument that women must be punished for abortion if it is illegal has never been accepted by any mainstream pro-life organization. Pro-life organizations consider women to be the second victims of abortion.

Not only that, but before Roe v Wade, abortion laws punished abortionists, not women. If abortion is illegal, abortionists are the ones who risk fines and jail. If there are no abortionists to do abortions, abortion will cease to be a problem.

The idea that if we make abortion illegal, we must send women to jail is a pro-abortion talking point, not a pro-life tenet. It is always put forward by pro-abortionists as an argument for keeping abortion legal. It’s a strawman argument by the pro-abortion side,
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If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.
 
pragmatist91 said:
If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.
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Our legal system recognizes there are situations that mitigate culpability.

Lots of women get abortions under duress. I’d say most.

It makes sense to me to go after abortionists and at the same time offer more assistance to women (and present fathers) facing crisis pregnancies.
 
Just for reference, I am very Pro-Life.

I think there is an underlying current of thought that women who have abortions are victims already. Regardless of what abortionists might say, science clearly shows that what is being done is destruction of a human being. Any mother who would willingly do that does not need prosecution, as the pain she must be in to do that which every law of nature derides is already punishment in itself.

As far as the Trump comments themselves, it just shows a guy who is lost from a human compassion standpoint.
 
Abortion will never be prohibited again if such a law is tied to punishing the woman involved. That alone would be enough reason not to seek such.

ICXC NIKA
 
pragmatist91 said:
If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.
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If the Supreme Court of the United States had legalized the hiring of hitmen 43 years ago and generations had accepted it as legal and safe, if not rare, and one party had made the preservation of access to legal hitmen a part of its platform, and then you decided to make it illegal once again, I suppose some re-education might be in order.

I recall reading one 17 year old’s account of her abortion. Her mother gave her $300 cash, dropped her off several blocks from the abortion facility, and told her “Don’t come home until you’ve had the abortion.” Was she a free agent?

If women are shown an ultrasound of the child before having an abortion, most back out of the procedure. If showing the ultrasound were made mandatory, I think abortions would decrease considerably.

Still, the fact remains that if Roe v Wade were reversed today, abortion legislation would revert to the States, putting in place the laws that were in place prior to Roe. And those laws penalized abortionists, not women.
 
Punishing women for abortion is a pro-abortion argument. It has never been a pro-life argument.
 
pragmatist91 said:
If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.
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First degree murder is willful, deliberate, and malicious. This does not describe the state of many women seeking abortions. Many are coerced; threatened with loss of support from parents or partners, some are already in such financial or psychological duress that they are literally at the breaking point and are in need of intervention. Others have been lied to; ultrasound or having a living child would (and does) change their mind. These are not people who need prison or penalty, but protection from those who offer permanent psychological and physiological harm as a solution to temporary difficulties or feelings.
 
JimG said:
If there are no abortionists to do abortions, abortion will cease to be a problem.
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**It would be nice if this statement were true. Unfortunately it is not. Women will still seek abortions even when all of the legal clinics have been closed.
There is a disagreement about how many women die or suffer sterility each year due to the absence of legal abortion clinics, but one thing for sure: the number is not zero. **
 
Should abortion be outlawed, I think it would make sense to criminalize the doctor’s actions. Many women seeking abortions are in desperate or very stressful circumstances and need to be welcomed back with love and charity. I don’t think it’s appropriate to go on witch hunts, even if there are some women who aren’t victims at all who seek it.
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**It would be nice if this statement were true. Unfortunately it is not. Women will still seek abortions even when all of the legal clinics have been closed.
There is a disagreement about how many women die or suffer sterility each year due to the absence of legal abortion clinics, but one thing for sure: the number is not zero. **
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Illegal abortions would exist. I doubt that they would amount to over 1 million a year in the U.S. as legal abortions do now. Making something illegal does not stop it but it does have the effect of reducing it. Assault, burglary, and theft are illegal, though they still occur. I would not recommend making them legal.
 
pensmama87, I could make the exact same argument about other criminals who are doing hard time. I bet a lot of them were also under immense pressure to get money or were suffering from mental illness, hence that’s the reason why they committed robbery, murder, drug trafficking, etc. Many of those people are still doing some very long prison sentences (which could possibly be even longer w/o any mitigating circumstances).

ChurchSoldier, let me ask you this: If a person takes a powerful mind altering drug like PCP and then murders somebody because they were hallucinating, should that person go to jail or not? By your logic, that person should also be spared prison since the harm the drugs did to their body is punishment enough. When it comes to drugs, law enforcement goes after dealers AND users. When it comes to the murder of people who were already born, law enforcement goes after every party involved (mob bosses, hitmen, people hiring hitmen, etc). Why should the same not be done with abortion? Abortion takes 2 to tango. Abortionists would not exist without the women who seek their services.

GEddie, and what about women who do abortions on themselves once it is outlawed? Without prosecuting all guilty parties, you are silently conceding that abortion really isn’t as bad as regular murder. For me, the prolife movement has always been about getting people to realize that unborn children are people who deserve all the legal rights as people who were already born. Those legal rights should include the right to have your killer prosecuted and jailed.
 
pragmatist91 said:
If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.
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I agree with you completely.

I don’t view the pro life movement as anti woman because they want to force women to carry pregnancies to term. I view them as anti woman (and cowardly) because they want to blame everyone from Obama to the SCOTUS to bad boyfriends to doctors for abortion. But there is only one person making the decision, and that’s the pregnant woman. The anger and hate spewed towards the people who work to keep it legal should be geared towards the women who actually do it. But the pro life movement treats women as stupid, incapable of making decisions and totally not responsible for the ones they do make. It’s insulting.

Women get abortions, blame them.
 
JimG said:
I recall reading one 17 year old’s account of her abortion. Her mother gave her $300 cash, dropped her off several blocks from the abortion facility, and told her “Don’t come home until you’ve had the abortion.” Was she a free agent?
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**This is a very good point. Many abortions are enabled or even coerced by a third party.
But we never hear of any demand that such coercion be criminalized. Why not?

Another call that we never hear is for our country’s child support laws to be overturned.
How many women are enabled or coerced by a man to have an abortion because that man does not want to be saddled with 18 years of monthly child support payments?
Why is not a hue and cry raised against these laws which have the effect of promoting the deaths of the unborn?**
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
**This is a very good point. Many abortions are enabled or even coerced by a third party.
But we never hear of any demand that such coercion be criminalized. Why not?

Another call that we never hear is for our country’s child support laws to be overturned.
How many women are enabled or coerced by a man to have an abortion because that man does not want to be saddled with 18 years of monthly child support payments?
Why is not a hue and cry raised against these laws which have the effect of promoting the deaths of the unborn?**
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Coercing a woman into an abortion is not penalized now because abortion is legal. But I agree that it is abhorrent, and should be penalized should abortion be made illegal.

Child support laws may need revision. Still, a man who forces a woman into an abortion to save himself child support is somewhat in the position of knocking off an innocent person because the living person will cost him money. Not very admirable.
 
pensmama87 said:
Our legal system recognizes there are situations that mitigate culpability.

Lots of women get abortions under duress. I’d say most.

It makes sense to me to go after abortionists and at the same time offer more assistance to women (and present fathers) facing crisis pregnancies.
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Surely every woman who has an abortion isn’t under duress. I’ve known some who had abortions simply because they didn’t want to be “burdened” with a child. They had money, they had time, they had health, but their lifestyle would have a crimp in it if were to contain a child. Even pregnancy was an “inconvenience” to them.
 
But the woman makes the decision and hires the doctor. Illegal abortion would be murder-for-hire, a contract killing.

Some women and especially young girls are coerced, but certainly not all.

I believe there should be some penalty, and mitigating circumstances would apply, of course.
 
pragmatist91 said:
As most of you have heard, Donald Trump said there should be a penalty for abortion. After making the statement he quickly back away (allegedly because the pro-life community criticized him for that remark as well). I have not looked into the issue enough to know if the pro-life critics of that policy were Catholics or just liberal protestants.

But to those Catholics who disagree with Trump, why shouldn’t there be a criminal penalty for abortion? The Church has always taught that life should be protected from conception until natural death. I personally think abortion should be outlawed and treated as 1st degree murder because that’s exactly what it is: a premeditated homicide.
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I don’t know where this thread is heading (I know very little about the Social Justice Forum) but the above strikes me as sheer demagoguery.
 
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