Why shouldn't abortion have legal consequences?

[LightBound]

There are also serial killers who strike victims at random and don’t get caught. It doesn’t mean we should legalize murder because some get away. Yes, she would be handcuffed to the hospital bed until her arraignment. One of my friends from hs killed a girl he was dating. He tried to kill himself afterwards. I can only imagine the security would have been the same when he was recovering in the hospital. In order to even ban abortion, the country would have to become much more conservative. So yes, a court would convict if the law was in place because the country moved much further to the right on the abortion issue.

Look, just because a killer is a woman doesn’t mean she should get special treatment. Modern culture and social policy have been very female-oriented for the past couple of years. Plenty of men doing hard time (or even on death row) were plagued with poverty, mental illness, abuse, lack of opportunity, drug addiction, etc. Where was their get out of jail card? Even in cases where the victim’s family was Catholic, they were calling for the guy’s head (on a side note, I am fully against the death penalty in all cases). Why is it that women are treated like a protected species while men are treated much more harshly (not just in the legal system, but also society in general)? I still say that a woman who gets an abortion should do the time for first degree murder.

How do you propose they confirm the woman actually had an abortion and not a miscarriage? Catch her in the act at the doctor’s office? How many doctors sympathetic to a woman wanting an abortion will state she was miscarrying and they scheduled her for a D & C and the hospital or surgical center? Abortions were done in doctor’s offices back before Roe V Wade and often in the hospital, too. It’s not something one can truly prosecute unless you plan on each and every pregnant woman being placed in a room with a video monitor and watched 24/7 until she gives birth.

 

[LightBound]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

Yes. I seriously doubt Roe v Wade will be overturned if people decide to start punishing women for not carrying a baby to term. Every woman who has miscarried will be under suspicion and I would imagine many will refuse to seek medical care under fear of being accused of having an abortion and facing prison time.

 

[pragmatist91]

How do you propose they confirm the woman actually had an abortion and not a miscarriage? Catch her in the act at the doctor’s office? How many doctors sympathetic to a woman wanting an abortion will state she was miscarrying and they scheduled her for a D & C and the hospital or surgical center? Abortions were done in doctor’s offices back before Roe V Wade and often in the hospital, too. It’s not something one can truly prosecute unless you plan on each and every pregnant woman being placed in a room with a video monitor and watched 24/7 until she gives birth.

The same way present murder investigations are carried out. Do you think the police catch every drug dealer, rapist, and murderer? They don’t. Not every woman would get caught. But convictions would be the result of doctors/partners/family who file reports about the pregnancy simply coming to a halt. Also, more doctors would be scared to perform abortions if they knew it meant life in prison w/o parole and having all of their property confiscated by the government.

 

[LightBound]

The same way present murder investigations are carried out. Do you think the police catch every drug dealer, rapist, and murderer? They don’t. Not every woman would get caught. But convictions would be the result of doctors/partners/family who file reports about the pregnancy simply coming to a halt. Also, more doctors would be scared to perform abortions if they knew it meant life in prison w/o parole and having all of their property confiscated by the government.

No. You won’t just have women that have had abortions prosecuted. You will women that have miscarried being forced into all sorts of invasive vaginal exams and tests, adding to the trauma of their lost pregnancy. Then you start to go down a slippery slope of women being investigated for attempted abortion when they’ve had a miscarriage and others decide that they drank too much caffeine or ate GMO foods or did some kind of activity on purpose to cause the miscarriage, hence giving themselves an abortion. It will go down that path, I assure you. Instead of being so hell-bent on punishing women who have ended a pregnancy under duress, why don’t we focus on making abortion rare by changing hearts, instead of being so excited to go on a witch-hunt after women who are no longer pregnant (by miscarriage or abortion). Don’t think for one minute that those that have suffered a miscarriage won’t be scrutinized and possibly arrested and jailed for losing their baby once it’s decided to prosecute women that have had an abortion!

latimes.com/world/great-reads/la-fg-c1-el-salvador-women-20150415-story.html

 

[Thorolfr]

I just read this article. The author took the words right out of my mouth on this issues.

standtrue.com/what-would-the-punishment-be-if-abortion-were-illegal/

The author says:

The end goal is to establish that life begins at the moment of fertilization. This will only be achieved with a paramount Human Life Amendment to the Constitution. With a Human Life Amendment we can establish the starting point in a human persons life that cannot be challenged by any court. This will give children in the womb the same rights and protections under the Constitution as any other human person.

But a “Human Life Amendment” to the Constitution will never happen because it is extremely difficult to amend the Constitution:

Article V provides two methods for amending the nation’s frame of government. The first method authorizes Congress, “whenever two-thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary” (a two-thirds of those members present—assuming that a quorum exists at the time that the vote is cast—and not necessarily a two-thirds vote of the entire membership elected and serving in the two houses of Congress), to propose Constitutional amendments. The second method requires Congress, " on the application of the legislatures of two-thirds of the several states" (presently 34), to “call a convention for proposing amendments”.

Each time the amendment process has been initiated since 1789, the first method has been used. All 33 amendments submitted to the states for ratification originated in The Congress.

After being officially proposed, either by Congress or a national convention of the states, a constitutional amendment must then be ratified by three-fourths of the states. Congress is authorized to choose whether a proposed amendment will be sent to the state legislatures or to state ratifying conventions for ratification. Amendments ratified by the states under either procedure are indistinguishable and have equal force as part of the Constitution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Five_of_the_United_States_Constitution

Getting a two thirds of both houses of Congress to vote for a “Human Life Amendment” would already be almost impossible. But even if this could be achieved, I can’t imagine three fourths of the states voting to ratify such an amendment. Those very high vote thresholds mean that such an amendment will never happen with such a controversial issue.

 

[phil19034]

Get off free? Do you see your own words here? Did you even read my post?

I thought I’d seen it all.

I did read your post, but you are mis-understanding mine. I asking about the repeat offender who has no remorse. If abortion is illegal, is it just for that women to not face charges?

If it’s a crime for the father to kill the unborn children, why not a crime for the mother?

Again - I never said what would be an appropriate sentence. I don’t know what one would be. Maybe mainitory counseling for a first offense? I have no idea what would be appropriate. But I do believe some kind of justice would need to be rendered by the state. As much as I would love to return to 1971, that would most likely not happen. An overturn of Roe v Wade would most likely result in unborn children be given human rights.

This whole conversation is hypothetical, but it’s also something that would need to be addressed if/when abortion becomes illegal and WHY it becomes illegal.

If it becomes illegal only because it violates a medical procedure law, then only the medical professional performing the abortion commits a crime. But if becomes illegal because unborn children are granted human rights, then their death becomes manslaughter. The mother would then at best be considered a conspirator to manslaughter.

These are questions worth asking because again, it’s doubtful that a count ruling or legislation would return everything to how it was in 1971.

Note: I’m trying to have an academic discussion about the law and how it would work. I’m doing my best to leave emotion out of this and look at it from just the letter of the law.

God Bless

 

[exnihilo]

But to those Catholics who disagree with Trump, why shouldn’t there be a criminal penalty for abortion? The Church has always taught that life should be protected from conception until natural death. I personally think abortion should be outlawed and treated as 1st degree murder because that’s exactly what it is: a premeditated homicide.

I don’t disagree with penalizing women for abortions. In fact they are the most responsible party. I think this may be the one crime a person can commit and face zero penalty. It reflects the great sex bias in our law and culture. This historical bias has never been fixed and women don’t seem interested in fixing it.

Many dismiss the guilt of women by talking about the pressure they are under from parents, husbands and boyfriends. If so there is no reason to give them the vote or maybe even own property. That may offend most people but that was the exact reason why society was structured like that in the past. You can’t say that was unfair while using it as an excuse to commit murder, the worst crime possible. Nothing is more preposterous.

 

[Tablefor9]

I don’t disagree with penalizing women for abortions. In fact they are the most responsible party. I think this may be the one crime a person can commit and face zero penalty. It reflects the great sex bias in our law and culture. This historical bias has never been fixed and women don’t seem interested in fixing it.

Many dismiss the guilt of women by talking about the pressure they are under from parents, husbands and boyfriends. If so there is no reason to give them the vote or maybe even own property. That may offend most people but that was the exact reason why society was structured like that in the past. You can’t say that was unfair while using it as an excuse to commit murder, the worst crime possible. Nothing is more preposterous.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would suggest that it is society’s structure up until the very recent past, and the objectification of women even today, that mitigates–not excuses–the complicity of women in this atrocity. Abortions don’t happen in a vacuum, nor does violence against women. To say that women can no longer be victimized by family or intimate partners because they have the vote and property rights is a breathtaking oversimplification of family dynamics and the roles of women in society.

 

[exnihilo]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would suggest that it is society’s structure up until the very recent past, and the objectification of women even today, that mitigates–not excuses–the complicity of women in this atrocity. Abortions don’t happen in a vacuum, nor does violence against women. To say that women can no longer be victimized by family or intimate partners because they have the vote and property rights is a breathtaking oversimplification of family dynamics and the roles of women in society.

Studies show women can be just as violent as men in intimate relationships. I didn’t say women can’t be victimized. I would say that the mere potential for being victimized is not used as a justification for any other act to completely absolve the actor of any responsibility.

 

[Tablefor9]

I agree with you completely.

I don’t view the pro life movement as anti woman because they want to force women to carry pregnancies to term. I view them as anti woman (and cowardly) because they want to blame everyone from Obama to the SCOTUS to bad boyfriends to doctors for abortion. But there is only one person making the decision, and that’s the pregnant woman. The anger and hate spewed towards the people who work to keep it legal should be geared towards the women who actually do it. But the pro life movement treats women as stupid, incapable of making decisions and totally not responsible for the ones they do make. It’s insulting.

Women get abortions, blame them.

And what of the 16 yr old who got one because her parents would not longer provide her a place to live if she didn’t? There are situations where teens and women are taken advantage of; I am angry that this happens.

 

[Tablefor9]

Studies show women can be just as violent as men in intimate relationships. I didn’t say women can’t be victimized. I would say that the mere potential for being victimized is not used as a justification for any other act to completely absolve the actor of any responsibility.

Who said completely? There is a vast difference in a “first degree murder charge” and “completely absolved of responsibility”.

 

[Peter_J]

Yesterday I noted three different people on the news (not counting DJT) pushing the abortion-law-equal-punishing-the-mother idea:

• Dawn Laguens (video)
• Wendy Davis
• Rachel Maddow

Wendy Davis for example said that Trump is “putting into words what [Republicans] have been doing right along.”

Anyone else (on the news I mean, not a blogger/poster on the internet)?

 

[Tablefor9]

I don’t know where this thread is heading (I know very little about the Social Justice Forum) but the above strikes me as sheer demagoguery.

Obviously, you were on to something.

So far, I’ve heard it insinuated that women shouldn’t be so uppity as to expect property rights and the vote, if they don’t want to be protected from full penalties for coerced abortions. And that perhaps we should leave the good abortion providers and abortion advocates alone, since they aren’t really to blame for anything.

I am exhausted from birthing 3 living babies last night; I’m probably not in the right frame of mind to be in this thread.

Blessed Easter.

 

[Peter_J]

Coercing a woman into an abortion is not penalized now because abortion is legal. But I agree that it is abhorrent, and should be penalized should abortion be made illegal.

I’m not sure where you live, but I believe coerced abortion is illegal in all fifty states.

 

[Peter_J]

Obviously, you were on to something.

So far, I’ve heard it insinuated that women shouldn’t be so uppity as to expect property rights and the vote, if they don’t want to be protected from full penalties for coerced abortions. And that perhaps we should leave the good abortion providers and abortion advocates alone, since they aren’t really to blame for anything.

I am exhausted from birthing 3 living babies last night; I’m probably not in the right frame of mind to be in this thread.

Blessed Easter.

Yesterday I heard on the news that prolife and “pro choice” people were united against the line that abortion-law-equal-punishing-the-mother. But clearly some aren’t united even on that – see the Dawn Laguens video, or just consider Wendy Davis saying that DJT is “putting into words what [Republicans] have been doing right along.”

What’s even more disturbing is that some prolife people appear to be agreeing with them.

 

[JimG]

I’m not sure where you live, but I believe coerced abortion is illegal in all fifty states.

I’m sure that forced abortion is illegal. Does this apply to mother of the 17 year old who dropped her off at the abortion clinic with a demand not to come home until she’s had the abortion? Does she report her mother to the police? Then what? Does it apply to the live-in boyfriend who tells her to have the abortion or else she’s out on the street?

 

[JimG]

All this talk of punishing women for abortion is nothing but pro-abortion talking points. “Let’s make sure to keep abortion legal or else we’ll have to throw millions of women in jail. Every miscarriage must be investigated by the police.” What nonsense. It’s been a pro-abortion talking point for years.

We will not stop abortion by punishing women. We stop abortion by putting abortionists out of business. States had a variety of laws pre Roe, limiting abortion in different ways. The laws made performing the abortion illegal, not having an abortion. (Sometimes abortionists charged with the crime tried to haul their patents into court as accessories—to discourage prosecution. But that tactic failed.)

How often does a woman have an abortion? Compare that to how many abortions one abortionist does in a week, a month, a year. Already according to many pro-abortion people, there is a shortage of abortionists. Most doctors don’t do them, won’t do them. Make doing them illegal. Put abortionists out of business. That’s what stops abortion.

There is a lot of talk about murder on some of these threads. I don’t think I ever see abortion called murder on pro-life sites. It’s called abortion. It’s the killing of an unborn child. It can’t be murder now because it’s legal. It’s protected. It’s celebrated as a woman’s right.

Does every woman going in for an abortion think this: “This is my unborn child. Her name is Louise. I’m not ready for her. I don’t want her alive. I want her dead, and I’m going to hire this doctor to kill her and dispose of the body.” If this is her state of mind maybe she should be prosecuted. But if the abortionist was out of business because of the law, she would not be walking into his office in the first place!

To take a lesser example: Many people favor punishing drug dealers but not drug users.

 

[Thorolfr]

We will not stop abortion by punishing women. We stop abortion by putting abortionists out of business. States had a variety of laws pre Roe, limiting abortion in different ways. The laws made performing the abortion illegal, not having an abortion. (Sometimes abortionists charged with the crime tried to haul their patents into court as accessories—to discourage prosecution. But that tactic failed.)

How often does a woman have an abortion? Compare that to how many abortions one abortionist does in a week, a month, a year. Already according to many pro-abortion people, there is a shortage of abortionists. Most doctors don’t do them, won’t do them. Make doing them illegal. Put abortionists out of business. That’s what stops abortion.

Even if abortionists are put out of business, women who want an abortion will find a way to get one. They will go to another state or even to another country. Abortion is now legal in some places in Mexico and in Canada and throughout most of Europe. In the early stages, a woman could probably get access to medications such as RU-486. If it was illegal, there would probably be a black market in it.

 

[phil19034]

I have to say, I agree with everything Trent Horn has just said about his on the Catholic Answers Blog

catholic.com/blog/trent-horn/should-a-woman-be-punished-for-having-an-abortion

 

[HelenRose]

If what you are saying is true, then that is logically inconsistent and it makes the prolife movement look ridiculous. If I were to hire a hitman to kill someone I despise, then I could also be charged with first degree murder (even though I wasn’t the one actually carrying out the act). How is a woman a “victim” of abortion? She is a willing participant in first degree murder.

Fear. Isolation. Lack of support. Abandonment. These are the reason a woman is often a victim.

They are the words that used as an excuse for abortion as well.
It is much easier for a society, negligent father, uncaring family members and so called friends and neighbors to encourage a woman to kill her child that to give support for a woman in caring for that child. It is much easier and cheaper for the medical establishment kill a baby than to support and help a mother.

If a woman has no support and an abortionist is more than willing to kill her child, especially for money, then as a society and as individuals we are as much, and in most cases, more culpable for sin than a woman especially if she is a young woman.