Why shouldn't abortion have legal consequences?

[phil19034]

Just for reference, I am very Pro-Life.

I think there is an underlying current of thought that women who have abortions are victims already. Regardless of what abortionists might say, science clearly shows that what is being done is destruction of a human being. Any mother who would willingly do that does not need prosecution, as the pain she must be in to do that which every law of nature derides is already punishment in itself.

As far as the Trump comments themselves, it just shows a guy who is lost from a human compassion standpoint.

In general, I agree with you. However, after these many years of legal abortion, I feel that many super liberal women (not necessary most pro-abortion women) view abortion has a form a birth control, and they don’t view it as evil at all.

However, with that said, I do think that the abortionist should be the one who is arrested. However, I also feel that if the Mother performs a “clothes hanger” abortion and self-aborts, then she should be treated same as the abortionist.

 

[pragmatist91]

I don’t know where this thread is heading (I know very little about the Social Justice Forum) but the above strikes me as sheer demagoguery.

My post is not sheer demagoguery. It is a legitimate question that’s being posed about a logical inconsistency in the prolife movement. No trolling intended here.

 

[phil19034]

Trumps comments and this post have me rethinking this.

Before Roe v Wade, the views on abortion were different and society was different. Girls were SCARED to be pregnant outside of marriage. They were afraid of their parents, families, teachers, clergy, friends, strangers, etc.

But today, the only one they would care about (if they care at all) is their parents. They could care less about what anyone else thinks because getting pregnant is proof that you’re having sex, and having sex is “cool” in today’s society. Unmarried women having babies in Hollywood is celebrated.

Furthermore, many (not all, nor most) pro-abortion women don’t see abortion as murder and see it as their “God given right.”

One of Bill Clinton’s mistresses is now revealing that Hillary had numerous abortions before finally having Chelsea, and that is only because Bill convinced Hillary that they had to have at least one kid to make it in politics. If this rumor is true, it would make sense why Chelsea was raised to believe abortion is good and why she and Hillary left the Baptist Church when she was 6 due to pro life sermons.

BlueEyedLady has a good point: women are not weak, and today pro-abortion women are very devout in their belief. If abortion is murder (which it is), and if killing a unborn child is no different than killing a 2 month old (it’s no different), then a mother receiving an abortion should be treated the same way as a mother who hires a person to kill her 2 month old child.

Their guilt should be determined in a court of law. Women who were under duress and were temporarily insane will have an insanity plea, while women who are militantly pro abortion should go directly to jail, “not pass Go, and not collect $100.”

This is truly something to ponder, and honestly this is another topic that Trump is bringing out into discussion.

 

[pensmama87]

Trumps comments and this post have me rethinking this.

Before Roe v Wade, the views on abortion were different and society was different. Girls were SCARED to be pregnant outside of marriage. They were afraid of their parents, families, teachers, clergy, friends, strangers, etc.

But today, the only one they would care about (if they care at all) is their parents. They could care less about what anyone else thinks because getting pregnant is proof that you’re having sex, and having sex is “cool” in today’s society. Unmarried women having babies in Hollywood is celebrated.

Furthermore, many (not all, nor most) pro-abortion women don’t see abortion as murder and see it as their “God given right.”

One of Bill Clinton’s mistresses is now revealing that Hillary had numerous abortions before finally having Chelsea, and that is only because Bill convinced Hillary that they had to have at least one kid to make it in politics. If this rumor is true, it would make sense why Chelsea was raised to believe abortion is good and why she and Hillary left the Baptist Church when she was 6 due to pro life sermons.

BlueEyedLady has a good point: women are not weak, and today pro-abortion women are very devout in their belief. If abortion is murder (which it is), and if killing a unborn child is no different than killing a 2 month old (it’s no different), then a mother receiving an abortion should be treated the same way as a mother who hires a person to kill her 2 month old child.

Their guilt should be determined in a court of law. Women who were under duress and were temporarily insane will have an insanity plea, while women who are militantly pro abortion should go directly to jail, “not pass Go, and not collect $100.”

This is truly something to ponder, and honestly this is another topic that Trump is bringing out into discussion.

This is not consistent with my or others’ experiences with talking and counseling women who are considering abortion.

Our society does not do nearly enough culturally to support mothers of young children.

 

[GEddie]

GEddie, and what about women who do abortions on themselves once it is outlawed? Without prosecuting all guilty parties, you are silently conceding that abortion really isn’t as bad as regular murder. For me, the prolife movement has always been about getting people to realize that unborn children are people who deserve all the legal rights as people who were already born. Those legal rights should include the right to have your killer prosecuted and jailed.

Point taken, but if she successfully self aborts, she most likely would not be “caught.”

In the event that it goes wrong, what do you do, handcuff her to the hospital bed and have her arraigned once she’s healed enough to go to court? Do you think a court in this country would convict?

I’d say just go back to the law as it existed in 1972; I don’t believe trial of aborting women for murder was part of those laws.

ICXC NIKA

 

[pragmatist91]

Point taken, but if she successfully self aborts, she most likely would not be “caught.”

In the event that it goes wrong, what do you do, handcuff her to the hospital bed and have her arraigned once she’s healed enough to go to court? Do you think a court in this country would convict?

I’d say just go back to the law as it existed in 1972; I don’t believe trial of aborting women for murder was part of those laws.

ICXC NIKA

There are also serial killers who strike victims at random and don’t get caught. It doesn’t mean we should legalize murder because some get away. Yes, she would be handcuffed to the hospital bed until her arraignment. One of my friends from hs killed a girl he was dating. He tried to kill himself afterwards. I can only imagine the security would have been the same when he was recovering in the hospital. In order to even ban abortion, the country would have to become much more conservative. So yes, a court would convict if the law was in place because the country moved much further to the right on the abortion issue.

Look, just because a killer is a woman doesn’t mean she should get special treatment. Modern culture and social policy have been very female-oriented for the past couple of years. Plenty of men doing hard time (or even on death row) were plagued with poverty, mental illness, abuse, lack of opportunity, drug addiction, etc. Where was their get out of jail card? Even in cases where the victim’s family was Catholic, they were calling for the guy’s head (on a side note, I am fully against the death penalty in all cases). Why is it that women are treated like a protected species while men are treated much more harshly (not just in the legal system, but also society in general)? I still say that a woman who gets an abortion should do the time for first degree murder.

 

[heidi_storage]

If women are shown an ultrasound of the child before having an abortion, most back out of the procedure. If showing the ultrasound were made mandatory, I think abortions would decrease considerably.

I’m sorry to say that isn’t true, at least when women are given the choice to look at the ultrasound image.

journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/2014/01000/Relationship_Between_Ultrasound_Viewing_and.13.aspx

Honestly, I don’t understand how this could be; you see your kid on the ultrasound, and it is so very obviously a tiny baby with a life of its own…it was absolutely thrilling to “meet” my two critters at 10 weeks of gestation. Nevertheless, this is a fallen world.

 

[phil19034]

This is not consistent with my or others’ experiences with talking and counseling women who are considering abortion.

Our society does not do nearly enough culturally to support mothers of young children.

But here’s a question: what percentage of women today receive counseling before an abortion? I’m actually asking, I don’t know the number.

If they come in for counseling, deep down they know something is wrong. So perhaps we need more metrics

 

[pensmama87]

But here’s a question: what percentage of women today receive counseling before an abortion? I’m actually asking, I don’t know the number.

If they come in for counseling, deep down they know something is wrong. So perhaps we need more metrics

I meant sidewalk counseling and the like.

 

[Thorolfr]

If abortion is illegal, abortionists are the ones who risk fines and jail. If there are no abortionists to do abortions, abortion will cease to be a problem.

What if a woman uses Mifepristone (RU-486)? It would probably be easy for a woman to obtain, so would a woman who used this drug if abortion was outlawed still be immune from prosecution?

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

I think abortion should be a crime of the same degree as murder. If a woman were to suffocate her infant after birth, she would be committing a crime. I don’t see why it should be any different if it happens before birth.

 

[phil19034]

I meant sidewalk counseling and the like.

But how many of them come back when no one is watching? I can see someone running away after meeting a sidewalk person. But how many come back when no one is on the sidewalk? We don’t know.

My belief is that the majority of women who head to the abortion clinic have their mind made up, even if they doubt the morality of their decision. I would venture to guess that the majority that leave come back and have the abolition later, bringing “support” with them.

But this is another area where we don’t have metrics

 

[pensmama87]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

 

[phil19034]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

What if they have more than one illegal abortion?

No one here is saying they should be stoned. But it is a legitamate question. Does an unremorseful, repeat offender get off free while others sit in jail?

I think this is stuff we have to be ready to address if Roe v Wade is over turned. But it’s doubtful that it would simply return to pre-1972.

Food for thought

God Bless

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

Thank you.

This entire discussion has saddened and surprised me.

 

[pensmama87]

What if they have more than one illegal abortion?

No one here is saying they should be stoned. But it is a legitamate question. Does an unremorseful, repeat offender get off free while others sit in jail?

I think this is stuff we have to be ready to address if Roe v Wade is over turned. But it’s doubtful that it would simply return to pre-1972.

Food for thought

God Bless

Get off free? Do you see your own words here? Did you even read my post?

I thought I’d seen it all.

 

[pragmatist91]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

Yes, using the legal system is Christian. It is your proposal that is secular and un-Christian. You are trying too hard to appeal to the crowd and letting yourself deviate from Church teaching. If unborn children really are human beings and abortion really is murder, then the same consequences must apply. Like one of the other posters said, it doesn’t matter if the woman has an abortion or if she smothers her baby with a plastic bag immediately after birth.

Just because one of the murderers is a woman and the victim is an unborn child, that doesn’t make it less heinous. In fact, that’s as heinous as it gets. Why should a low income woman who kills her unborn child get off the hook but not a low income man who killed someone for money? Most people in the prison system have had terrible lives (low income, drug addiction, child abuse, the list goes on). Why should those people have to sit in jail but a woman who has an abortion would get a get out of jail free card? A crime with no punishment is no crime at all. Either abortion is the first degree murder of a child or it isn’t. Catholic teaching says it is.

Radical feminists always have and always will hate the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not a radical feminist organization. It values both men and women but it still acknowledges that men and women have fundamentally different roles in the world. They will never be exactly equal because they are different.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’ll admit that part of me is bewildered at practicing Christians using the legal system as the metric for how we treat post-abortive women. Even if it were logical and consistent, is it Christian?

Pregnancy is unique, which makes abortion very different from other crimes. I am adamantly pro-life, but deliberating over how much we should get to punish a post-abortive woman doesn’t strike me as particularly in keeping with Christ’s teachings - and offers a heck of a lot of fuel to pro-abortion folks who insist that pro-lifers hate women.

Punishing women for abortion would ultimately be impractical. Every miscarriage that resulted in a hospital visit would have to be investigated - and that’s an enormous number of innocent women who will be cuffed to a bed and invasively probed “just in case”.

It’s hateful either way.

 

[pragmatist91]

I just read this article. The author took the words right out of my mouth on this issues.

standtrue.com/what-would-the-punishment-be-if-abortion-were-illegal/

 

[LightBound]

There are also serial killers who strike victims at random and don’t get caught. It doesn’t mean we should legalize murder because some get away. Yes, she would be handcuffed to the hospital bed until her arraignment. One of my friends from hs killed a girl he was dating. He tried to kill himself afterwards. I can only imagine the security would have been the same when he was recovering in the hospital. In order to even ban abortion, the country would have to become much more conservative. So yes, a court would convict if the law was in place because the country moved much further to the right on the abortion issue.

Look, just because a killer is a woman doesn’t mean she should get special treatment. Modern culture and social policy have been very female-oriented for the past couple of years. Plenty of men doing hard time (or even on death row) were plagued with poverty, mental illness, abuse, lack of opportunity, drug addiction, etc. Where was their get out of jail card? Even in cases where the victim’s family was Catholic, they were calling for the guy’s head (on a side note, I am fully against the death penalty in all cases). Why is it that women are treated like a protected species while men are treated much more harshly (not just in the legal system, but also society in general)? I still say that a woman who gets an abortion should do the time for first degree murder./QUOTE]

How do you propose they confirm the woman actually had an abortion and not a miscarriage? Catch her in the act at the doctor’s office? How many doctors sympathetic to a woman wanting an abortion will state she was miscarrying and they scheduled her for a D & C and the hospital or surgical center?