Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[tkdnick]

You know what I would love to see happen? I would love to go to a Mass that combines P&W, Traditional hymns, Polyphony, and Gregorian chant. I think that would be awesome!

To dismiss P&W as trash or inappropriate simply because it is P&W is denying it’s importance. If it weren’t for P&W music I wouldn’t even be in The Church. It was that type of music that brought me back to The Faith, as I know it has done for many. How can that be bad?

 

[Lance]

Cygnus X1, as you’ve noticed, there’s a whole lot of opinion being offered up in this thread, but little fact. The truth is that the Church does not condemn, ban, or otherwise restrict the use of contemporary praise and worship music in the Mass. Yes, the songs must be in full agreement with Catholic teaching, and they must lead us in worship of God. Beyond that, it’s a matter of taste. Some people prefer Gregorian Chant at Mass. Others prefer traditional choral music. I prefer contemporary praise and worhip music, as long as the songs are chose appropriatly, and are performed well.

While I love Gregorian Chant, I cannot participate in it, so, for me, attending a mass that used Gregorian Chant would be like attending a concert. I would would listen, and enjoy, but not participate. Fortunately, our God, and His Church, is big enough to reach out to the needs of a diverse population.

I agree 100%. My wife grew up in Italy pre Vatican II. She still prefers the Latin Mass. I came into the church in the early 70’s so the Novus Ordo is my preferance. Neither is wrong, they are just different.

 

[JButky]

The argument at the time WAS lyrics…so thats why I made the point.

Yes but it is still a symptom of the larger point that people often try to separate the two and use lyrics as justification. That does not meet the total criteria that the Church teaches. The point is still valid. Lyrics alone are not the sole criteria and you cannot separate them from the music when discussing the topic which is the title of this thread…

If I were to play Shout to the Lord, verses Holy God we praise thy name, there is not much difference. Honestly. a little bit of a different chord progression, thats about it.

Music is not simply a “chord progression” There are many other parts and to compare two different styles of music simply on a chord progression is a little bit of a shallow argument. You can look at the parts for comparison, but you also need to look at the whole.

Long tones are not the same as “long drawn out notes”. Long tones, have an effect while singing of drawing someone out of themselves.

Why would anyone want to draw themselves…“out of themselves”
Or is this some transcendental approach to liturgy? One should be totally united in their person to share in the great Sacrifice of the Holy Mass. One should not, nor need, a form of escapism for active participation in the Mass. I don’t understand why anyone would want to do that unless there is a serious misconception about the nature of the mass. The Church has never taught that one should attempt anything like this. That is also an antithesis and yet another reason to disqualify the music. If your description and intent is to be taken as you’ve presented it, you have put aside “active’ participation” for something completely awry from VAII council and subsequent documents… Doing that would also be dangerous to the soul.

I’m also not talking about “Repeating a phrase ad nauseum”. There is no need to put words in my mouth here with negative connotations. If you were to use the same arguement, then you would be arguing against the rosary.

The Rosary is a prayer, not a piece of music. There are many Ave Maria and Hail Mary settings that would be considered the highest form of musical art. The Rosary as it exists in and of itself is not a musical masterpiece and was never intended or came about for that purpose… That many have been able to use that to bring forth musical art is proper. You are suggesting something different to that evolution of high art with the Rosary as inspiration… (which is the proper role as the Church teaches…)

I’m simply talking about repetitive type phrases makes for singable material. Someone earlier argued that it makes it more difficult to sing, I disagree with that. Just like a litany (which may be done at mass for a baptism, confirmation,) or a rosary, the repetitive nature makes it easy to sing. It becomes a mantra.

There are extreme differences in musical form between the refrain type P/W music and say for instance Handel’s “Messiah” - “And He shall reign forever and ever…”

ANY analysis of the two will yield many differences on many levels.

I was not comparing it to chant.

That’s the point…you should…as the Church teaches…

Joe B

 

[agapewolf]

Regarding chord progression, you argued something that didn’t make sense. I was saying the chord progression was a bit different, and THAT’s ALL. I know that there is more to music than a chord progression, and I was saying there was no difference in the two pieces… really, the time period only.

sidenote: I really dislike the fact that some people here think that the only real “high art” could have been written centuries ago and that no one from 2007 is able to achieve that.

Referring to “out of themselves” …you misunderstood my meaning completely.

What I mean by that is more of a common understanding of the term. I mean, discarding inhibition, I mean a urge to sing louder… to participate more fully. not, some kind of ontological state of being.

My analogies are to simply make a point, not to be complete full exact arguments. no, the rosary is not a musical masterpiece.That wasn’t my point. my point is it is repetitive…serves as a mantra for meditation. The same can happen with repetivite phrases in music.I wasn’t comparing a repetitive phrase from p/w and Handel.

I think you are looking for semantic differences in meanings here than really trying to understand the concepts of what I am talking about. A point is brought up, I argue with a simple example…to actually talk about the point itself. example…the lyric example. I was not going into the music aspect of it, someone wanted to talk lyrics, said the lyric issue was the reason it didn’t belong, so I argued that point. I didn’t say it was the only difference.

ANd the point is NOT that I should compare it to chant, that wasn’t the current discussion at the time, we were talking about more specific “whys” of things.

another side note: I get caught up in the word “teaching”. I think it is misused often. To me, church teaching has to do with faith and morals, NOT discipline and practice (including liturgy). Although we should be obedient to our Church… music type at mass is not church teaching, it is church discipline. Church teaching is faith and morals. When people say a mass was an “orthodox mass”, that doesn’ tmake sense to me. If the priest preaches heresy, that is unorthodox. But if the rubrics are followed, that is licitness. Perhaps a semantics issue on my side.

 

[E.E.N.S]

ANd the point is NOT that I should compare it to chant, that wasn’t the current discussion at the time, we were talking about more specific “whys” of things.

But the topic of this thread is Why P/W music shouldn’t be used at Mass, and the Church herself teaches that the more closely music approaches Gregorian Chant the more worthy it is for use in the Liturgy, and the further it is from Gregorian Chant the less worthy it is for the Liturgy. So comparing it to chant (like some here have been doing) is exactly what we are supposed to be doing.

another side note: I get caught up in the word “teaching”. I think it is misused often. To me, church teaching has to do with faith and morals, NOT discipline and practice (including liturgy). Although we should be obedient to our Church… music type at mass is not church teaching, it is church discipline. Church teaching is faith and morals. When people say a mass was an “orthodox mass”, that doesn’ tmake sense to me. If the priest preaches heresy, that is unorthodox. But if the rubrics are followed, that is licitness. Perhaps a semantics issue on my side.

Actually no. Church teaching encompases more than just faith and morals. Faith and morals are what the Church teaches infallibly, but she teaches on much more than that. Have you seen how many encyclicals, motu proprios, etc that the Church has put out over time with regards to the Liturgy and the music that should (and should not) be used therein? Plenty.

 

[JButky]

sidenote: I really dislike the fact that some people here think that the only real “high art” could have been written centuries ago and that no one from 2007 is able to achieve that.

No one is saying that. There are composers still living who do have appropriate music worthy of usage at Mass. None of them are P/W style because the style itself does not meet the criteria. And that is why I gave you concrete examples from your posts, because that is what the OP asked…Why is it (P/W) not appropriate?

Now you and the OP have some concrete answers…

I think you are looking for semantic differences in meanings here than really trying to understand the concepts of what I am talking about. A point is brought up, I argue with a simple example…to actually talk about the point itself. example…the lyric example. I was not going into the music aspect of it, someone wanted to talk lyrics, said the lyric issue was the reason it didn’t belong, so I argued that point. I didn’t say it was the only difference.

I’ve given you specific examples (not semantic) which need to be given in response to the OP’s original question. You have done the same, but I have explained why those points are incorrect through multiple concrete examples…not analogies. I completely understand the concepts you are trying to present and have refuted them.

ANd the point is NOT that I should compare it to chant, that wasn’t the current discussion at the time, we were talking about more specific “whys” of things.

Unfortunately, that is the point…the why’s…if you do not include a comparison to chant you have truly missed the point because it is one of the most important issues for determining the why’s…

To me, church teaching has to do with faith and morals, NOT discipline and practice (including liturgy). Although we should be obedient to our Church… music type at mass is not church teaching, it is church discipline.

So by utilizing a style that is contrary on many levels to the thresholds of music structure that has been given through all the ages of Catholicism… (as I have demonstrated by concrete examples in my replies, go read Augustine ans Aquinas and other church documents dating as far back as you can find them too…) …we should then take it upon ourselves to be undisciplined… (Sure let’s all eat meat on lenten Fridays…who needs to fast…why go to church on Sunday anyway…Can’t let that discipline get in the way of letting us feel like actively participating…)

And that is the essence of personal interpretation and preference displacing discipline that leads to error. That is also the concept as to why we delude ourselves that P/W is worthy for usage at Mass. That reduces it to a free-for-all…do what you want to make you feel the way you want. (like removing inhibitions.) P/W is partially borne of this mentality and that is another reason it can easily be refuted as music worthy for Mass.

Joe B

 

[agapewolf]

Again, you are misundestanding.

My reference to your “semantics” issue with me was the use of the term “pulling someone out of themselves” There is a common understanding of what that means… turning a focus of self to a focus of God or others, or pulling people into more participation.

I’m finding this argument extremely frustrating as it seems to be impossible to get across what I mean, it is obvious you aren’t understanding me in many things…You claim you are, but by your responses I know you are not.

Most of it is my fault as I am failing miserably to find the references and vocabulary to get myself across, but I would hope for charity’s sake that you would look past my inferiority in that way to attempt at reaching a better understanding of my points, instead of just arguing to win. whether, the points are matched or not.

even though chant may be pride of place, or the norm, it is not necessarily to the exclusion of everything else.

I’m done

 

[E.E.N.S]

even though chant may be pride of place, or the norm, it is not necessarily to the exclusion of everything else.

That’s the problem, where are we seeing the implementation of the Church’s teaching that Gregorian Chant is the norm? It’s not, we are abusing the “allowable non-exclusion” of P/W music to be the norm at the cost of almost completely abolishing Gregorian Chant.

 

[jc-servant]

You know what I would love to see happen? I would love to go to a Mass that combines P&W, Traditional hymns, Polyphony, and Gregorian chant. I think that would be awesome!

You should have come our Easter Vigil (or perhaps not if you are being sarcastic). I thought we had the most amazing blend of music in different styles and from different centuries but all with appropriate words and tone for a mass. Nothing sounded out of place or jarring to me. I realize that it is just my opinion and someone else might have thought it was a hot mess if they only want one style used. If anyone at our parish didn’t like it they have yet to complain which I find amazing. Usually someone finds something to pick apart every month regarding the music due to their preferences.

We had the Exultant and Litany of the Saints done traditionally. The deacon chanted some things. The choir prepared some Latin traditional, a more modern song (hymn style, not P & W) called “Three Days” that takes us through Christ’s Passion and Resurrection and “Agnus Dei” (a contemporary song that could fall into the P&W category although it is not rock n roll). Water of Life was a contemporary setting for the sprinkling rite. The multiple psalms were in different styles also.

The parishioners have been raving about how much they loved the music being a nice mix for the Easter season. I’m in the choir and I have never heard this many people just gush when they run into me.

 

[tkdnick]

You should have come our Easter Vigil (or perhaps not if you are being sarcastic). I thought we had the most amazing blend of music in different styles and from different centuries but all with appropriate words and tone for a mass. Nothing sounded out of place or jarring to me. I realize that it is just my opinion and someone else might have thought it was a hot mess if they only want one style used. If anyone at our parish didn’t like it they have yet to complain which I find amazing. Usually someone finds something to pick apart every month regarding the music due to their preferences.

We had the Exultant and Litany of the Saints done traditionally. The deacon chanted some things. The choir prepared some Latin traditional, a more modern song (hymn style, not P & W) called “Three Days” that takes us through Christ’s Passion and Resurrection and “Agnus Dei” (a contemporary song that could fall into the P&W category although it is not rock n roll). Water of Life was a contemporary setting for the sprinkling rite. The multiple psalms were in different styles also.

The parishioners have been raving about how much they loved the music being a nice mix for the Easter season. I’m in the choir and I have never heard this many people just gush when they run into me.

Definitely not being sarcastic! I think I would have loved the music at that Mass.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

Repeating a phrase ad nauseum set to the same music does not approach the threshold of the level of art required for liturgical usage either.

Joe, I’ll remember that the next time we chant the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

 

[Cygnus_X1]

I don’t know if these will be my “final” thoughts on the subject: I reserve the right to add more.

I sincerely want to thank everyone who has chimed in on P&W music and its role (or not) in the Mass.

I don’t like P&W being dismissed out of hand simply because it’s P&W. It’s one of many styles, as Nick was pointing out. And I wouldn’t want a mass of ALL P&W music myself. Disclaimer: I come from a charismatic background (more on that in a moment), and the prevalent songs sung during those Masses were of the P&W variety. Many comparisons have been drawn to Mass versus a concert, and I guess I was on the side of P&W music not glorifying the players (as through a concert) but glorifying God (as through the Mass).

But many of you posted legitimate concerns about the role of P&W in the liturgy, and backed them up with Church teaching, most of which I had not seen before. Somewhere between those teachings and the parish level, those teachings have been watered down or just plain ignored. Of course, that could be said for many other subjects involving the liturgy. But if indeed there is error in the Church about what should and should not be appropriate music, how do we fix it?

Back to the Mass/concert thing. When I was in the Lamb of God community, one of the ladies at a prayer meeting had a “word of knowledge” that God was disappointed about the amount of our praise. The illustration, though, was rather shame-based; she said that God was saying she cheered harder for George Winston than she did for Jesus. Then again, this wasn’t at a Mass.

 

[PauloFreire2]

There should be a kind of Mass exclusive to Catholic knights, eg, ***warriors against Evil. ***It should be serious, quiet, and simple. These days of ***folk-festival Masses ***are zapping Christian Civilization of its inner strength. Yeah…why ***not ***turn Mass into a cheap rock concert? Or how about a hip-hop throw-down, replete with its customary degradations? ***Why not? ***

 

[ReConverted]

There should be a kind of Mass exclusive to Catholic knights, eg, ***warriors against Evil. ***It should be serious, quiet, and simple. These days of ***folk-festival Masses ***are zapping Christian Civilization of its inner strength. Yeah…why ***not ***turn Mass into a cheap rock concert? Or how about a hip-hop throw-down, replete with its customary degradations? ***Why not? ***

I laughed so hard when I read this! Right on!

 

[Cygnus_X1]

There should be a kind of Mass exclusive to Catholic knights, eg, ***warriors against Evil. ***It should be serious, quiet, and simple. These days of ***folk-festival Masses ***are zapping Christian Civilization of its inner strength. Yeah…why ***not ***turn Mass into a cheap rock concert? Or how about a hip-hop throw-down, replete with its customary degradations? ***Why not? ***

Yep, make sure everyone gets to hear Only The Music You Enjoy.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t like P&W being dismissed out of hand simply because it’s P&W. It’s one of many styles, as Nick was pointing out. And I wouldn’t want a mass of ALL P&W music myself. Disclaimer: I come from a charismatic background (more on that in a moment), and the prevalent songs sung during those Masses were of the P&W variety.

I’ve often wondered why there is this connection. Why has the Charismatic movement adopted this particular style of music as its own? It’s not obvious on the surface why the two should be so closely linked.

And BTW, I once heard someone claim, using the very words of Vatican II (where presumably the Holy Spirit was actively present), that Gregorian chant was the real Charismatic music of the Church. Something to think about.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t like P&W being dismissed out of hand simply because it’s P&W. It’s one of many styles, as Nick was pointing out. And I wouldn’t want a mass of ALL P&W music myself. Disclaimer: I come from a charismatic background (more on that in a moment), and the prevalent songs sung during those Masses were of the P&W variety.

I’ve often wondered why there is this connection. Why has the Charismatic movement adopted this particular style of music as its own? It’s not obvious on the surface why the two should be so closely linked.

And BTW, I once heard someone claim, using the very words of Vatican II (where presumably the Holy Spirit was actively present), that Gregorian chant was the real Charismatic music of the Church. Something to think about.

 

[ReConverted]

As a former Evangelical, I don’t miss P & W music at all.
I also don’t miss the liturgies that feature it. If I wanted that stuff, I’d go back to being a Protestant.

May the Church be delivered from P & W music, and that bland pablum which, to paraphrase Michael Davies, is rightly called “that which purports to be a folk idiom, most notable for its almost heroic banality”!

3 weeks ago, I visited a Parish that featured music that sounded like a bad version of Burt Bacharach…complete with out of tune guitars and voice…what a trial to have to endure that…especially during Mass! :banghead:

Thank God for Gregorian Chant! Long live Tradition!

By the way, loving Tradition DOES NOT mean that I want a time machine! LOL

 

[ReConverted]

As a former Evangelical, I don’t miss P & W music at all.
I also don’t miss the liturgies that feature it. If I wanted that stuff, I’d go back to being a Protestant.

May the Church be delivered from P & W music, and that bland pablum which, to paraphrase Michael Davies, is rightly called “that which purports to be a folk idiom, most notable for its almost heroic banality”!

3 weeks ago, I visited a Parish that featured music that sounded like a bad version of Burt Bacharach…complete with out of tune guitars and voice…what a trial to have to endure that…especially during Mass! :banghead:

Thank God for Gregorian Chant! Long live Tradition!

By the way, loving Tradition DOES NOT mean that I want a time machine! LOL

 

[ReConverted]

As a former Evangelical, I don’t miss P & W music at all.
I also don’t miss the liturgies that feature it. If I wanted that stuff, I’d go back to being a Protestant.

May the Church be delivered from P & W music, and that bland pablum which, to paraphrase Michael Davies, is rightly called “that which purports to be a folk idiom, most notable for its almost heroic banality”!

3 weeks ago, I visited a Parish that featured music that sounded like a bad version of Burt Bacharach…complete with out of tune guitars and voice…what a trial to have to endure that…especially during Mass! :banghead:

Thank God for Gregorian Chant! Long live Tradition!

By the way, loving Tradition DOES NOT mean that I want a time machine! LOL