Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[Eddy]

I’ve read this with interest, partly because I’ve listened to debates within the Protestant tradition which are very similar - why do we need this P&W music when we’ve such a venerable tradition already? I’ve heard older Protestants voice nearly all the concerns I’ve heard here. There’s no doubt that some of the Scottish Psalter music is just sublime - and all settings of the psalms, so no controversy over the words then. I particularly like the ‘Come, let us to the Lord our God, with contrite hearts return. Our God is gracious nor will He leave, the desolate to mourn’. However, it has its downfalls - the ‘lead me ontoeth the rock that higher is than I’ type, where the words have been twisted to make a rhyme. I think most of the Scottish Psalter would sit quite happily in a RC Mass - but isn’t used because it’s not part of the tradition.

There are, similarly some fantastic new P&W (or what I’m used to calling CCM - Contemporary Christiam Music) - ‘In Christ alone my hope is found’ has entered the common lexicon, as has the beautiful setting on ‘How Lovely is Thy Dwelling Place’. And there are the downfalls. There’s also the fairly contemporary developments of Taize worship, which I simply love.

There is the danger of CCM becoming performance - and becoming purely about experience - but the same danger exists for Gregorian and for any other form of music (plenty of people like plainchant because of how it makes them feel). I know one parish where the priest at every mass sings doggedly through four verses of an obscure hymn that none of his congregation know. It certainly isn’t glorifying God. But, since I’ve had so much occassion in the last number of years to sit though music I dislike, as well as music I love, I’ve tried to come to the point of judging the music by its fruit. Are people in deepening communion with God? If they are, then I can’t be so selfish as to only want the music that I find helpful. The church is so broad, and so long as it’s not stating doctrinal errors, then I should rejoice that we are many voices lifted to the one God.

 

[porthos11]

I love Praise and Worship music.

Now Praise and Worship should not be dismissed outright for Mass, but there are indeed guidelines (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, Musicam Sacram) that set standards by which liturgical music should be measured. For me, P&W doesn’t fit the bill. I’ll deal with just one issue: instruments.

The Church’s documents call for liturgical music to possess a sense of the sacred; that of being “set apart.” Since P&W pieces are virtually tied to secular music styles, using electric guitars, drum sets and secular beats (none of which are necessarily bad things), it’s difficult to use them for a celebration that is supposed to lift our thoughts beyond earthly realities. Hence:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions. (Musicam Sacram).

Note the use of the phrase “common opinion and use.” Without twisting into knots over this one, we can instinctively tell which instruments are suitable for secular music only and which are suitable for sacred. Standards may vary from place to place but clearly (at least to me), the settings and beat of P&W do not meet this standard. The pipe organ, on the other hand, is clearly associated with “church.”

But let me lead a prayer meeting, and you won’t see me selecting liturgical hymns. Instead, I will select from my large collection of P&W songs. I’d be happy with a drum set too. Just not at Mass.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

this thing referred to as “praise & worship music” should not be in Western Catholic liturgy because it is not in Eastern Catholic liturgy. If the churches are truly one, there must be visible witnesses to them being one. Their divergence can not be so profoundly different from each other. Easterners use Chanting, just as westerners did previously. If you check out the Ethiopian Chant is is quite dynamic with some percussion but it still has this profound depth which is far beyond this commercialized bob dylan / pop . Although I have to admit some african american protestants do the music quite beautifully, it seems other cultures can not replicate their qualities as as well. When they try they seem to turn out…lacking soul.

Frankly one can not reinvent culture. Culture is not made to come from Commerce. Tradition is semi-permanent, such profound changes in liturgical music are disasterous, it is not the nature of the church to be able to handle it. Only slow changes over time can become harmonious.

The Church is the source of the worldest greatest music. Only a very healthy ancient living secular tradition can ever go into the Church and be part of its music, in all other circumstances it is the Church that teaches good music to us, not vice versa

Do as Orthodox do, not as protestant do.
Be happy.

 

[Michael_Welter]

this thing referred to as “praise & worship music” should not be in Western Catholic liturgy because it is not in Eastern Catholic liturgy. If the churches are truly one, there must be visible witnesses to them being one.

The oneness of the Church is based on belief, especially in the Eucharist. It is not based on our styles of music, or the way we dress, or wear our hair. God created us as individuals, and doesn’t expect everyone to look and act alike.

 

[Cat]

I’m a fairly new Catholic, so I haven’t read a lot of the biographies of the saints.

But I have read a very good biography of St. Teresa of Avila (sorry, I loaned it to my daughter, so I can’t remember the author, but it was about 700 pages long and not easy to read. It was published by TAN.).

I was amazed at how much she suffered in her life here on earth. And yet, she never complained, but embraced all the setbacks and afflictions and even joked about her misery. Those who worked with her said that she made everyone around her happier.

It seems to me that all Catholics, especially myself, would be greatly blessed if we purposedly submitted ourselves to Masses that use music that we personally hate.

It would take our focus off of ourselves and help us to be humble and non-complaining and pleasant in the midst of great personal affliction.

As long as the Church approves the music, I don’t think we have any right to complain about it just because we personally don’t like it. Has the Church really allowed “trash?” That seems like a rather disrespectful comment about our leaders to me. As far as I know, the Church has approved many of the hymnals and songbooks that some Catholics denounce. Aren’t we supposed to accept the authority of our Church and respect their pronouncments about music?

 

[JButky]

As far as I know, the Church has approved many of the hymnals and songbooks that some Catholics denounce.

That’s news to me. There is a provision in one of the latest documents to finally form a committee to approve things, (that hasn’t happened yet), but in general the Church has only the guides listed for music. The only approved stuff is the Graduale Romanum or the Simplex

Here’s a description from Canticanova’s Simplex

And the Regular version Graduale Romanum

There may be individual hymnals that were printed by dioceses that carry an imprimatur, but that’s about it and those are hard to find (like the old Vatican II hymnal from Seattle Diocese)

Joe B

 

[Cat]

JButky, I’m not claiming that the musical pieces all have an “imprimatur.”

The Pope has authority over the Bishop, the Bishop has authority over the priests in his diocese, and the priests have authority over their parishioners.

That authority has been given not by men, but by God. He has ordained these men and given them the gifts and abilities to make proper decisions about issues pertaining to their parishes, including the music.

Those of us in the congregation should respect the authority of our clergy, and if we have questions about their decisions, we need to go through the proper channels to challenge their decisions.

The Bishop is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the liturgy in the Mass in the churches in his diocese. If there are liturgical abuses, then he should be informed and he will correct them.

If someone believes that certain hymns or musical styles or instruments or singers are not liturgically correct, they should contact the Bishop.

It is the responsibility of the priest and the people in that parish to yield to the authority of the Bishop and accept the music that he approves.

It seems to me that if someone is truly convicted that the music is liturgically incorrect, they should take the step of contacting the Bishop and asking for an investigation.

If they haven’t done that yet, they have no right to say that the music is not appropriate. Until the Bishop rules otherwise, the priest of each parish has the authority to approve the music, and to question the music is to question the authority of the priest and ultimately, the authority of the Bishop.

We don’t just have to sit back and allow a miscreant to subject us to liturgical abuses.

But questioning the authority of the priest should be done a proper way, by going to the Bishop and asking for an investigation and ruling.

It shouldn’t be done by complaining either publicly or privately that the music is not liturgical, or even worse, by making claims that the music is trash or irreverent or worldly or “protestant” or badly-written, etc…

Perhaps I am being presumptuous, but I am assuming that if people have gone to their Bishop about music, that in most cases, to their dismay, the Bishop has ruled that the music is liturgically correct.

I’m sure there are individual situations where Churches were led into error and abuse. But I honestly think that if you were to take the “Gather” Hymnal to the Bishop of your diocese and make an accusation of liturgical incorrectness, that you would be told that the “Gather” Hymnal is, indeed, liturgically correct.

After all, the Church has approved that Mass be offered in the language of the people, and the Catechism talks about incorporating the music of the culture.

Perhaps I am being presumptuous, but I am assuming that if people have gone to their Bishop about music, that in most cases, the Bishop has ruled that the music is liturgically correct. So it is a puzzler to me why so many Catholics continue to complain about the music, even though their Bishop apparently approves of it.

It is my opinion that to harbor a spirit of disagreement about the music in Mass is to encourage the same kind of individualism that is common in many Protestant churches. In Protestant churches, this individualism leads to a lack of brotherly love and fellowship, splits in the congregation, and a poor witness to a world who wonders how Christians can be so divided.

So to sum up, if you don’t like the music in Mass, then quityerbellyachin and take your objections to the proper Church authorities for an official ruling, rather than continuing to harbor an internal spirit of dissatisfaction and an external spirit of contentiousness. Let the matter of music be decided by the proper, God-appointed authority.

 

[JButky]

So to sum up, if you don’t like the music in Mass, then quityerbellyachin and take your objections to the proper Church authorities for an official ruling, rather than continuing to harbor an internal spirit of dissatisfaction and an external spirit of contentiousness. Let the matter of music be decided by the proper, God-appointed authority.

Yes we are waiting for that (still)…Unfortunately you are not likely to get a definitive answer on those points because of the nature of Roman Rite where variance is allowed to promote building on a musical Tradition. We DO know that much of the writings from the Vatican have been in the realm of correcting errors (gently) by continuing to explain “misinterpretations” and over recent years have reiterated these and that some forms don’t exactly adhere to models appropriate for Liturgy…They were not forms that “the Council” envisioned.

It’s not contentiousness… dissatisfaction…probably…but only to the extent to be in accord with what the Vatican states from time to time on these matters…(and with more frequency lately)

Joe B

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

The oneness of the Church is based on belief, especially in the Eucharist. It is not based on our styles of music, or the way we dress, or wear our hair. God created us as individuals, and doesn’t expect everyone to look and act alike.

When I hear comments like this I sometimes think I’m in an “individualistic” Anglican Church, after going to so many Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches regular Latin Catholics tend to sound an awful lot like protestants in the things they say.
It’s not a matter of not being an individual, it is a matter of not replacing or destroying authentic culture with commercialism.

“It seems to me that all Catholics, especially myself, would be greatly blessed if we purposedly submitted ourselves to Masses that use music that we personally hate.”

<-I’ve done this for 23 years of my life. Destroying culture has not blessed me and my days of sufferring in this needless way are over.

“After all, the Church has approved that Mass be offered in the language of the people, and the Catechism talks about incorporating the music of the culture.”

← there is not a strong living tradition of musical culture, musical culture is dead, radio is the commerce which replaced it. This is impossible in the current context of society. Much of the culture here is heretical protestant more than orthodox catholic.

“To to sum up, if you don’t like the music in Mass, then quityerbellyachin and take your objections to the proper Church authorities for an official ruling, rather than continuing to harbor an internal spirit of dissatisfaction and an external spirit of contentiousness. Let the matter of music be decided by the proper, God-appointed authority.”

This is probably true. Cat has made a very wise comment for the most part. We need to start small “schola cantorums” and build them into something that receives the attention of the parish. Complaining without positive action is ultimately useless.

I quote from the article linked below:

"People who find themselves disgruntled with the status quo in any parish often feel a sense of alienation from parish life, particularly in its liturgy. This is understandable. But to make a difference requires more than merely bemoaning the current state and sneering at parish programs. You need to leave the protest mode and think in terms of the contribution you can make.

The music sector of parish life, in particular, is often fraught with division and acrimony. People become very protective of their liturgical turf and suspicious of those whom they believe are trying to encroach upon it. For this reason, and for the sake of your own peace of mind, anyone who wants to see a change in music must proceed in charity and love.

Agitating against the current music establishment will do nothing to help your cause. You cannot force the existing choirs to stop the musical banalities. Only a positive agenda is capable of creating a long-term change. Make peace, adopt a bright outlook, and make amends for past wrongs: They’re not only the right things to do, but they also prepare the way for a successful renewal in your liturgical music. "

www.crisismagazine.com/julaug2006/tucker.htm

A recent comment on Liturgical song in the
POST-SYNODAL APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI
#42. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything - texts, music, execution - ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).
given on 22 February, the Feast of the Chair of Peter, in the year 2007

 

[Michael_Welter]

When I hear comments like this I sometimes think I’m in an Anglican Church, after going to so many Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches regular Latin Catholics tend to sound an awful lot like protestants in the things they say.

Are you saying that all Catholics are supposed to worship God in EXACTLY the same manner? I hope not. The Church has never taught this. The Church, in her wisdom, has allowed people to worship according to their culture, and what works best for them.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, the Mass I’ve been attending lately at my parish, has an organist with a traditional choir.

No one but the choir sings, because its too high and no one knows the songs.

I was at the point thinking, this Mass would be better served with no music.

I doubt that any young-inquiring-nonCatholic coming into this Mass, would have a desire to join our Church.

Jim

 

[AlexV]

Funny. A friend of mine was drawn to the Catholic Church by a Tridentine choir that sang polyphony every Sunday for High Mass.

I

 

[E.E.N.S]

Funny. A friend of mine was drawn to the Catholic Church by a Tridentine choir that sang polyphony every Sunday for High Mass.

I

I was thinking the same thing. I know far more young people (as well as old) who are attracted to chant and polyphony than what we typically hear at 99% of the Masses today.

 

[Aramis]

The Hymnals in use in most parishes I have attended do have an imprimateur… All the Liturgical materials printed by Oregon Catholic Press, including “Today’s Missal” and the “Today’s Missal Music Issue.” That latter book being the most common hymnal I’ve seen in use. A good mix of ancient, old, and new.

 

[agapewolf]

I know of hundreds of teens (literally) that are drawn to the church (and some even vocations) because of the lifeteen mass. (including myself as an adult).

 

[Cat]

Our LifeTeen mass is packed with many teenagers, children, and quite a few adults and seniors. I don’t like CCM very much, but I like the Life Teen mass because the kids actually are the band, with one adult “lead.” I also know that many of them are great kids who work hard for the Lord and their Church.

Some people like contemporary, some people like ancient, some people like traditional–the Church has not officially forbade any of it. Stop worrying about everything that isn’t “correct” with the Mass. If there is an obvious liturgical abuse, report it and get it corrected. But if the Mass is simply not to your personal taste, maybe you can try to find another Mass that is.

To me, the Mass is Jesus, and He is the Music. Everything else is just “muzak.”

 

[VociMike]

Our LifeTeen mass is packed with many teenagers, children, and quite a few adults and seniors. I don’t like CCM very much, but I like the Life Teen mass because the kids actually are the band, with one adult “lead.” I also know that many of them are great kids who work hard for the Lord and their Church.

Some people like contemporary, some people like ancient, some people like traditional–the Church has not officially forbade any of it. Stop worrying about everything that isn’t “correct” with the Mass. If there is an obvious liturgical abuse, report it and get it corrected. But if the Mass is simply not to your personal taste, maybe you can try to find another Mass that is.

To me, the Mass is Jesus, and He is the Music. Everything else is just “muzak.”

And yet the Church emphatically denies that all liturgical music is equal. To say that none of it is actually forbidden is hardly to attempt to esteem what the Church esteems. It’s more a “barely squeak by” approach to Catholic liturgy and sacred music.

 

[Cat]

VociMike, are you saying that the people who attend Life Teen Mass receive less of a Mass than those who travel downtown to the Latin Mass?

 

[VociMike]

VociMike, are you saying that the people who attend Life Teen Mass receive less of a Mass than those who travel downtown to the Latin Mass?

NO and YES. No, because the Eucharist is the Eucharist.

Yes, because we are feeding our children the equivalent of Twinkies-faith. There is very little spiritual nourishment in “relevant” liturgies. We are robbing our children of their priceless spiritual inheritance, and giving them trinkets and baubles in return.

Dr. Francis Beckworth, who just return to the Catholic Church after decades in the Evangelical world, puts it well in an interview:

Looking back, and knowing what I know now, I believe that the Church’s weakness was presenting the renewal movements as something new and not part of the Church’s theological traditions.

For someone like me, who was interested in both the spiritual and intellectual grounding of the Christian faith, I didn’t need the “folk Mass” with cute nuns and hip priests playing “Kumbaya” with guitars, tambourines and harmonicas. And it was all badly done.

After all, we listened to the Byrds, Neil Young and Bob Dylan, and we knew the Church just couldn’t compete with them.

But that’s what the Church offered to the young people of my day: lousy pop music and a gutted Mass. If they were trying to make Catholicism unattractive to young and inquisitive Catholics, they were succeeding.

What I needed, and what many of us desired, were intelligent and winsome ambassadors for Christ who knew the intellectual basis for the Catholic faith, respected and understood the solemnity and theological truths behind the liturgy, and could explain the renewal movements in light of these.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Dr. Francis Beckworth, who just return to the Catholic Church after decades in the Evangelical world, puts it well in an interview:

Looking back, and knowing what I know now, I believe that the Church’s weakness was presenting the renewal movements as something new and not part of the Church’s theological traditions.

For someone like me, who was interested in both the spiritual and intellectual grounding of the Christian faith, I didn’t need the “folk Mass” with cute nuns and hip priests playing “Kumbaya” with guitars, tambourines and harmonicas. And it was all badly done.

After all, we listened to the Byrds, Neil Young and Bob Dylan, and we knew the Church just couldn’t compete with them.

But that’s what the Church offered to the young people of my day: lousy pop music and a gutted Mass. If they were trying to make Catholicism unattractive to young and inquisitive Catholics, they were succeeding.

What I needed, and what many of us desired, were intelligent and winsome ambassadors for Christ who knew the intellectual basis for the Catholic faith, respected and understood the solemnity and theological truths behind the liturgy, and could explain the renewal movements in light of these.

Of course this is a mischaracterization of what actually is played in so-called Folk Masses. There isn’t Byrds and Bob Dylan style music nor does it come close. The Kumbaya term is over used by ultra right wing conservatives ad nausium. When was the last time anyone heard that song sung at Mass, if ever?

Beckworth was an evangelical, which probably explains his ultra conservative leanings and why he sees anything other than what is in tune with his taste as being bad.

A Mass with music that includes guitars and tambourines, can be every much as reverent and spiritual as a Mass with Gregorian Chant, especially if he former is done well and the later is done poorly.

Jim