Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[VociMike]

VociMike;2284705:

To quote John Paul II:

It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. ./

QUOTE]

Read what is says.

Also, the Vatican II Document on the Sacred Liturgy says that

Gregorian Chant is suitable for the liturgy, but it does not exclude other styles.

Jim
Once again (and this is so common, I am finding) you speak of “excluding styles”. You insist that everything that is not ‘black’, is therefore ‘white’. If it’s not forbidden, there is to be no more discussion on the matter.

What you ignore is that there is a continuum of music that is more or less “worthy of the temple”. Why use music that is less worthy rather than music that is more worthy? Personal preference or liturgical theories in any form are not a suitable reason.

And trust me, I know full well what it says. And I have never, ever claimed anything other than what the Church teaches. I have never, ever said it must be Gregorian chant or nothing. Now let me supply again the text that you left out:

Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.

The people producing bad Catholic music for the past 40 years have produced that bad music precisely because they have either been ignorant of, or outright dismissive of, the sensus Ecclesiae in this matter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

:banghead:
You, my friend are showing you poor catechesis, lol. The OFFICE of Peter is holds the keys. It was not the 12, just Peter, then they passed in succession to PETER’s successors.

You are the one who is sounding protestant.

The New American Bible,

Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:18

The footnote to that verse

[18] Except for the plural of the verbs bind and loose, this verse is practically identical with Matthew 16:19b and many scholars understand it as granting to all the disciples what was previously given to Peter alone. For a different view, based on the different contexts of the two verses, see the note on Matthew 16:19.

Matthew 16:19 is where he gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

Based on the above, John Michael Talbot’s song is neither a lie nor heretical.

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

The New American Bible,

Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:18

The footnote to that verse

[18] Except for the plural of the verbs bind and loose, this verse is practically identical with Matthew 16:19b and many scholars understand it as granting to all the disciples what was previously given to Peter alone. For a different view, based on the different contexts of the two verses, see the note on Matthew 16:19.

Matthew 16:19 is where he gives Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

Based on the above, John Michael Talbot’s song is neither a lie nor heretical.

Jim

The NAB is notorious for not having Catholic footnotes! The Church teaches that the keys were given to Peter (though the 12 did receive the power of the keys), and then from Peter on to his successors.

Do you side with the Church or with the protestants?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Once again (and this is so common, I am finding) you speak of “excluding styles”. You insist that everything that is not ‘black’, is therefore ‘white’. If it’s not forbidden, there is to be no more discussion on the matter.

What you ignore is that there is a continuum of music that is more or less “worthy of the temple”. Why use music that is less worthy rather than music that is more worthy? Personal preference or liturgical theories in any form are not a suitable reason.

And trust me, I know full well what it says. And I have never, ever claimed anything other than what the Church teaches. I have never, ever said it must be Gregorian chant or nothing. Now let me supply again the text that you left out:

Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.The people producing bad Catholic music for the past 40 years have produced that bad music precisely because they have either been ignorant of, or outright dismissive of, the sensus Ecclesiae in this matter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JimR-OCDS;2284936:

Once again (and this is so common, I am finding) you speak of “excluding styles”. You insist that everything that is not ‘black’, is therefore ‘white’. If it’s not forbidden, there is to be no more discussion on the matter.

What you ignore is that there is a continuum of music that is more or less “worthy of the temple”. Why use music that is less

worthy rather than music that is more worthy? Personal preference or liturgical theories in any form are not a suitable reason.

And trust me, I know full well what it says. And I have never, ever claimed anything other than what the Church teaches. I have never, ever said it must be Gregorian chant or nothing. Now let me supply again the text that you left out:

Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.

The people producing bad Catholic music for the past 40 years have produced that bad music precisely because they have either been ignorant of, or outright dismissive of, the sensus Ecclesiae in this matter.

So according to your interpretation here, the Bishops should never approve of the songs currently being played in Churches across the USA, because they are not close to Gregorian Chant.

Why is it they’re wrong and you’re right interpreting what the Vatican has said?

It’d be great to have Gregorian Chant in every parish in the world, but its never going to happen because people aren’t trained in it, and not everyone likes it and no Church authority is saying that it must be the only style used.

I’m just glad that I can enjoy all the various styles of music, including Gregorian Chant. It must be miserable going to Mass and hate the music being played, because its not Gregorian Chant.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The NAB is notorious for not having Catholic footnotes! The Church teaches that the keys were given to Peter (though the 12 did receive the power of the keys), and then from Peter on to his successors.

Do you side with the Church or with the protestants?

Now you’re telling me that the NAB is heretical.

What were the Bishops doing approving it?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

It is comparatively seldom that the Fathers, when speaking of the power of the keys, make any reference to the supremacy of St. Peter. When they deal with that question, they ordinarily appeal not to the gift of the keys but to his office as the rock on which the Church is founded.

newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

So according to your interpretation here, the Bishops should never approve of the songs currently being played in Churches across the USA, because they are not close to Gregorian Chant.

Why is it they’re wrong and you’re right interpreting what the Vatican has said?

It’d be great to have Gregorian Chant in every parish in the world, but its never going to happen because people aren’t trained in it, and not everyone likes it and no Church authority is saying that it must be the only style used.

I’m just glad that I can enjoy all the various styles of music, including Gregorian Chant. It must be miserable going to Mass and hate the music being played, because its not Gregorian Chant.

Jim

Now you’re telling me that the NAB is heretical.

What were the Bishops doing approving it?

Jim

Jim, you need to stop putting words in peoples’ mouths.

**Above: No one said that Bishops should not approve of songs just because they are not close to Gregorian Chant - no one even implied it. What is being said is that the CLOSER it is to Gregorian Chant the MORE worthy it is for the liturgy…and vice versa.

**Below: The NAB isn’t heretical, but some of the commentary is.

Jim, slow down and read (and then re-read) the things you are inacccurately replying to.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

E.E.N.S

This is what you said, when I listed a few John Michael Talbot songs;

Very appropriate? So they must be very similar to Gregorian Chant then?

No, they’re not similar to Gregorian Chant. The majority of the music in American Catholic Churches today, which the Bishops approve of, is close to Gregorian Chant.

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

E.E.N.S

This is what you said, when I listed a few John Michael Talbot songs;

No, they’re not similar to Gregorian Chant. The majority of the music in American Catholic Churches today, which the Bishops approve of, is close to Gregorian Chant.

Jim

Yes, that is PART of what I said. I also said that it was allowable. Show me where I said that if it is not close to Gregorian Chant it should be banned. I didn’t.

Remember what I said about reading first? Try it.

 

[VociMike]

So according to your interpretation here, the Bishops should never approve of the songs currently being played in Churches across the USA, because they are not close to Gregorian Chant.

Why is it they’re wrong and you’re right interpreting what the Vatican has said?

It’d be great to have Gregorian Chant in every parish in the world, but its never going to happen because people aren’t trained in it, and not everyone likes it and no Church authority is saying that it must be the only style used.

I’m just glad that I can enjoy all the various styles of music, including Gregorian Chant. It must be miserable going to Mass and hate the music being played, because its not Gregorian Chant.

Jim

Did you deliberately ignore what I said about not insisting only on Gregorian chant? Are you deliberately attributing to me a position I have stated I do not hold?

And as for the bishops, anybody who says the bishops of the Church did not collectively shirk some of their responsibilities over the past 40 years of chaos, that person is living in a dream world. If the bishops were doing everything right, why did John Paul II have to issue a call to “‘purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated’, to guarantee dignity and excellence to liturgical compositions”? Why a call to purify worship if there were no impurities?

 

[VociMike]

The majority of the music in American Catholic Churches today, which the Bishops approve of, is close to Gregorian Chant.

You might believe that, but nobody else on the planet does.

Comments like yours remind me of whistling past the graveyard. Yep, everything’s alright. No problems. All of our music is close to Gregorian chant. No deformities or impurities or unworthy music here. It’s a golden age of liturgical music.

 

[bear06]

Amen, VociMike!

Lest anyone deem me to be an old crank concerning music, I’m pretty well established in the music business. I design musical gear (Guitars & amplifiers), and I sell musical gear for a living. I also play rock drums and guitar. I have friends who are major rock stars. Having said that, I happily note that the Holy Father wants to re-establish the pride of place that is due to Gregorian Chant in the liturgy.

Rock, hip-hop, etc. can be interesting forms of music, but I fail to see how they belong in the liturgy…and Lord deliver us from the cheez-whiz pseudo-folk banality prevalent in so many parishes.

Great post!

My children sing in a chant/polyphonic choir and they also play some of the exact same songs in their bluegrass band. They wouldn’t think of doing the bluegrass at Mass. One type of music (obviously not lyrics in this case) brings to mind sacredness and awe and the other, while nice, doesn’t. One brings to mind thousands of angels and saints bowing down to Our Lord and the brings to mind more of a personal devotion. I don’t have a problem with my girls playing Holy God We Praise Thy Name in bluegrass, it just doesn’t have the same awe inspiring effect.

Besides, most of the newer music sounds like carousel music. I can actually visualize going up and down, up and down…

 

[BillyT92679]

All the Bishops have the authority to bind and to loose, not just the Sovereign Pontiff. The Successor of St. Peter has the keys to the kingdom, a special gift from the Lord, but all Bishops are true shepherds.

 

[ReConverted]

Great post!

My children sing in a chant/polyphonic choir and they also play some of the exact same songs in their bluegrass band. They wouldn’t think of doing the bluegrass at Mass. One type of music (obviously not lyrics in this case) brings to mind sacredness and awe and the other, while nice, doesn’t. One brings to mind thousands of angels and saints bowing down to Our Lord and the brings to mind more of a personal devotion. I don’t have a problem with my girls playing Holy God We Praise Thy Name in bluegrass, it just doesn’t have the same awe inspiring effect.

Besides, most of the newer music sounds like carousel music. I can actually visualize going up and down, up and down…

Thanks for the compliment and I enjoyed your post as well!

Gimme that old time religion…

 

[ReConverted]

What’s the name of that outfit in Oregon that publishes that so-called liturgical music that I can’t endure at Mass?

 

[proud2bcatholic]

What’s the name of that outfit in Oregon that publishes that so-called liturgical music that I can’t endure at Mass?

That would be Oregon Catholic Press, please God deliver us from OCP.

 

[ReConverted]

That would be Oregon Catholic Press, please God deliver us from OCP.

They crank out the most horrible DRECK! How in God’s name did anyone approve that garbage?

 

[agapewolf]

They crank out the most horrible DRECK! How in God’s name did anyone approve that garbage?

I take EXTREME offense to this comment. I know a couple of the composers personally…and I know their hearts, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the music was written as a prayer from their heart. (inspired by the divine). How dare you call it garbage.

Suitable for mass? thats a different question. Your comment is uncalled for.

 

[ReConverted]

I take EXTREME offense to this comment. I know a couple of the composers personally…and I know their hearts, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the music was written as a prayer from their heart. (inspired by the divine). How dare you call it garbage.

Suitable for mass? thats a different question. Your comment is uncalled for.

So what?
You go right ahead and take all the offense you wish to.

I’m offended too: by the &^%$ that passes for liturgical music these days. The hearts of the writers isn’t the issue - the quality of the music is, and the music is horrible.

How dare I call it garbage? Simple: I’d be lying if I said otherwise.

 

[agapewolf]

ever heard of a song called little drummer boy? The hearts of the writers IS an issue when you label it as garbage. but I’m sure you will criticize the musical quality of that song too.

Can you give any intellectual comments as to the musical quality itself and why it is garbage? I mean real,tactile conversation, not just “its garbage”

Cadence? chord structure? melodic lines? do you know what you are talking about besides your own tastes?

you called someone’s prayer garbage. that is wrong. no question.

I’m not talking about appropriateness for Mass…I’m talking about it objectively…its someone’s prayer.