Why shouldn't praise and worship music be in the Mass?

[VociMike]

Of course this is a mischaracterization of what actually is played in so-called Folk Masses. There isn’t Byrds and Bob Dylan style music nor does it come close. The Kumbaya term is over used by ultra right wing conservatives ad nausium. When was the last time anyone heard that song sung at Mass, if ever?

He’s talking about when he left the Church. There most certainly was Byrds and Bob Dylan and Kumbaya played. I remember it distinctly, and my wife even played that music at Mass in college, along with the Youngbloods, CS&N, James Taylor, John Denver, the Doobie Brothers and countless others. We were there, we remember it.

The music now is different, but not better. Worse, musically, but better (if still not very good) text-wise.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I heard Kumbayah in the 60s and 70s at Mass, most assuredly. I also remember playing Anne Murray’s “You Needed Me” while the projector at the college Mass played a collage of those misty ‘emotive’ pictures of people smiling and walking down a road in their 'life journey to God." Not to mention Manilow’s “Could It Be Magic” in the college cathedral for a nuptial Mass in 1976. And “Blowin in the Wind” was a staple for the ‘closing song’ at many Masses, along with Peter, Paul and Mary’s “If I had a Hammer” (hey, Jesus was a carpenter, right? ), “Abraham, Martin and John” was popular with the Peace and Justice crowd, and “Turn, Turn, Turn” was a big hit at communion time.

These things we remember, we were there. Often we were even willing participants, caught up by priests who told us to ‘follow our conscience’ and not to bother with musty old rules, etc.

They may have meant well, they may have thought what they did was not only good and valid, but necessary to enforce “Vatican II” and to attract us (then) teens and young adults. But even for those of us who were of a generation where this was ‘contemporary’ music found, very soon, that we were uncomfortable with a lot of what this style led to.

It is one thing to appeal to ‘common elements’ and to emphasize the similarities in order to attract people to the gospel. It is another to artificially manufacture ‘commonality’, as well as to cling to a mythos of that ‘moment in time’ as being the defining moment of the ‘new’ Catholicism, and to jettison everything before it, as well as refuse to consider anything ‘different’ since it. When was the last time that you heard a Mass setting – a contemporary one–that didn’t sound like something you could hear on the radio as an ‘older’ jazz, rock, or ‘folk’ sound? There are musical styles that have come about since those three above–so why are some so adamant about rejecting anything that is ‘new’ and different, if they were so adamant about rejecting all that came ‘before’ the 60s, in order to promote the 'new and different?"

 

[JimR-OCDS]

He’s talking about when he left the Church. There most certainly was Byrds and Bob Dylan and Kumbaya played. I remember it distinctly, and my wife even played that music at Mass in college, along with the Youngbloods, CS&N, James Taylor, John Denver, the Doobie Brothers and countless others. We were there, we remember it.

The music now is different, but not better. Worse, musically, but better (if still not very good) text-wise.

The Bryds and Dylan were played at Mass? Come on!

Are they played today?

Most likely not because the difference between now and the 60’s, (which is over 40 years ago btw), is that back then there was hardly any contemporary religious music, being the change of the Mass had just begun and Catholics were trying to get use to singing, nevermind compose modern relgious music.

I was a teen in the 60’s other than Kumbaya, I never heard Dylan or the Bryds played at a Mass.

Also, you can not compare that music with today’s spiritual music that is played in our Churches. The St. Louis Jesuits, John Michael Talbot, have great music. David Haas and Marty Haugen also have good music which is appropriate and I’m sure there are countless more.

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

Also, you can not compare that music with today’s spiritual music that is played in our Churches. The St. Louis Jesuits, John Michael Talbot, have great music. David Haas and Marty Haugen also have good music which is appropriate and I’m sure there are countless more.

Not all of John Michael Talbot is even orthodox. We had to have his lyrics chaged from his ‘We Are One Faith’ song so that we weren’t singing heretical music at Mass.

Haas and Haugen, come on now… =/

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Not all of John Michael Talbot is even orthodox. We had to have his lyrics chaged from his ‘We Are One Faith’ song so that we weren’t singing heretical music at Mass.
/

Heretical?

Please explain

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I was thinking the same thing. I know far more young people (as well as old) who are attracted to chant and polyphony than what we typically hear at 99% of the Masses today.

AMEN! Have you ever wondered why young people are drawn to high school and college chorales that sing this type of music, but do not sing in the church choir?

I don’t have all the answers. But it’s not the music of the church that young people hate. Something else is going on there.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Heretical?

Please explain

If someone could please find me the lyrics for this song, I am not having luck, lol, but I remember one part, for example, where it says that Christ gave the keys to ALL the Apostles (when in fact he gave them only to Peter)…but if I remember correctly there was more than just that.

 

[ReConverted]

The Bryds and Dylan were played at Mass? Come on!

Are they played today?

Most likely not because the difference between now and the 60’s, (which is over 40 years ago btw), is that back then there was hardly any contemporary religious music, being the change of the Mass had just begun and Catholics were trying to get use to singing, nevermind compose modern relgious music.

I was a teen in the 60’s other than Kumbaya, I never heard Dylan or the Bryds played at a Mass.

Also, you can not compare that music with today’s spiritual music that is played in our Churches. The St. Louis Jesuits, John Michael Talbot, have great music. David Haas and Marty Haugen also have good music which is appropriate and I’m sure there are countless more.

Jim

Yep. I’ve heard that “blowin in the wind” and “turn, turn, turn” and “the sound of silence” were used after the changes took place. Friends have relayed this info to me: they were the ones playing this music at Mass.

 

[Aramis]

Yep. I’ve heard that “blowin in the wind” and “turn, turn, turn” and “the sound of silence” were used after the changes took place. Friends have relayed this info to me: they were the ones playing this music at Mass.

I can confirm from personal experience that Turn Turn Turn and Blowin in the Wind were used in the late 1970’s in Anchorage, at Holy Family Cathedral.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If someone could please find me the lyrics for this song, I am not having luck, lol, but I remember one part, for example, where it says that Christ gave the keys to ALL the Apostles (when in fact he gave them only to Peter)…but if I remember correctly there was more than just that.

Well personally, that particular song I wouldn’t play at Mass. It doesn’t really fit, even if not heretical, which I don’t believe it is.

I mention John Michael Talbot, but that doesn’t mean all of his music is appropriate for Mass. Nothing on his Monk Rock album is usable for Mass, IMHO.

I’ve used his “Holy Is His Name,” “Only In God,” and some others that I can’t remember right now. They’re very appropriate for Mass.

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well personally, that particular song I wouldn’t play at Mass. It doesn’t really fit, even if not heretical, which I don’t believe it is.

I mention John Michael Talbot, but that doesn’t mean all of his music is appropriate for Mass. Nothing on his Monk Rock album is usable for Mass, IMHO.

I’ve used his “Holy Is His Name,” “Only In God,” and some others that I can’t remember right now. They’re very appropriate for Mass.

Jim

Very appropriate? So they must be very similar to Gregorian Chant then? As we all know the Church states that the closer music is to Gregorian Chant the more appropriate it is for the liturgy, and the further it is from Gregorian Chant the less appropriate it is for the liturgy.

I would have to say that “very appropriate” would be a far stretch, but “allowable” would be more accurate.

 

[VociMike]

Very appropriate? So they must be very similar to Gregorian Chant then? As we all know the Church states that the closer music is to Gregorian Chant the more appropriate it is for the liturgy, and the further it is from Gregorian Chant the less appropriate it is for the liturgy.

I would have to say that “very appropriate” would be a far stretch, but “allowable” would be more accurate.

To quote John Paul II:

With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: “The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.

(edited to add) This is the Magisterium speaking. Taught by one pope, re-affirmed by another pope (and also by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger). We have no right to ignore or minimize this teaching.

 

[E.E.N.S]

To quote John Paul II:

With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: “The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. Only an artist who is profoundly steeped in the sensus Ecclesiae can attempt to perceive and express in melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.
(edited to add) This is the Magisterium speaking. Taught by one pope, re-affirmed by another pope (and also by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal Ratzinger). We have no right to ignore or minimize this teaching.

Indeed, thank you for posting this.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If someone could please find me the lyrics for this song, I am not having luck, lol, but I remember one part, for example, where it says that Christ gave the keys to ALL the Apostles (when in fact he gave them only to Peter)…but if I remember correctly there was more than just that.

“And he gave to Simon Peter, and all of the twelve,
the keys of the Kingdom so darkness would
never prevail.”

This is what you call heretical?

I’m not theologian, but I don’t think this is heretical.

Jesus gave to the Apostles, to power to forgive sins or hold them bond. So, it is the Apostles and their successors who hold the keyes to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

To quote John Paul II:

**It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it. ./**QUOTE]

Read what is says.

Also, the Vatican II Document on the Sacred Liturgy says that

Gregorian Chant is suitable for the liturgy, but it does not exclude other styles.

Jim

 

[E.E.N.S]

“And he gave to Simon Peter, and all of the twelve,
the keys of the Kingdom so darkness would
never prevail.”

This is what you call heretical?

I’m not theologian, but I don’t think this is heretical.

Jesus gave to the Apostles, to power to forgive sins or hold them bond. So, it is the Apostles and their successors who hold the keyes to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jim

If you don’t like the sound of heretical we could always used the word “lie” instead. Christ may have given the power of the keys to the twelve, but the keys themselves were given only to Peter. Not judging motives, but this is a subversion of the truth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you don’t like the sound of heretical we could always used the word “lie” instead. Christ may have given the power of the keys to the twelve, but the keys themselves were given only to Peter. Not judging motives, but this is a subversion of the truth.

Lie?

Then the Church, the successors to Peter, don’t hold the keys to the kingdom of heaven, according to you.

That role died with Peter.

OK, you can just become a protestant then, because they pretty much think the same way.

Jim

 

[Sarabande]

AMEN! Have you ever wondered why young people are drawn to high school and college chorales that sing this type of music, but do not sing in the church choir?

I don’t have all the answers. But it’s not the music of the church that young people hate. Something else is going on there.

I think you might have something here. The choirs in my high and college were always bursting out the seams and many times we were doing “Catholic” pieces of music and really enjoyed it. (Vivaldi’s “Beatus Vir” in college - two full choirs - INCREDIBLE!!!) Yet, my childhood parish was always thirsting for younger singers. I was one of two or three youngsters in our adult choir and alot of my classmates in the secular choirs were Catholic. Go figure. So, I think you’re right that something else is going on than just the music.

On the surface, perhaps bringing in “hip” music or something more “upbeat” would help bolster some teen and young adult attendance at mass. It could even perhaps get them more interested in what the Church has to offer. But I know a lot of people my age and younger who either continued to grow in our faith or left it not because of the music whether it was Christian rock, classical, chant, polyphony or P&W music.

If we are doing this kind of music to keep the numbers of young people in the Church, perhaps we should really focus on giving them from an early age, a good and solid foundation in our faith, our catechism and our history. I think one of the problems is that for my generation, especially, many of us didn’t not get that solid foundation. We were children of the 80s and 90s (generation xers). So many of my friends and family of my generation and younger have lamented this. We’ve had to do the searching and learning ourselves. Also, I noticed this when I taught music at a Catholic school for a couple of years – the children aren’t really being taught to believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Church. It wasn’t being emphasized either by the teachers or their parents (most of whom were children of Vatican II. I have older friends in their 40s and 50s saying how during recess or after school they used to visit the Lord in Church because they believed in the True Presence. Many children do not do that anymore. We certainly didn’t as children and teens. We need to have the Substance that goes along with all the other wonderful parts of our Liturgy. Perhaps if more of us had this kind of foundation-building and Substance, there would be more practicing, young Catholics today, rather than floundering numbers in some parishes. Neither music, whether chant or P&W,nor a hip priest or nun can just sustain a person’s faith. And if people are just going for the music, then we’re still not doing enough to truly witness the faith. I can attend an Anglican high mass if I just wanted to hear good music – many times actually music from Catholic masses. I’ve always found that ironic.

 

[E.E.N.S]

VociMike;2284705:

To quote John Paul II:

It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it.

Read what is says.

Also, the Vatican II Document on the Sacred Liturgy says that

Gregorian Chant is suitable for the liturgy, but it does not exclude other styles.

Jim
Does it or does it not say this:

“The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Lie?

Then the Church, the successors to Peter, don’t hold the keys to the kingdom of heaven, according to you.

That role died with Peter.

OK, you can just become a protestant then, because they pretty much think the same way.

Jim

:banghead:
You, my friend are showing you poor catechesis, lol. The OFFICE of Peter is holds the keys. It was not the 12, just Peter, then they passed in succession to PETER’s successors.

You are the one who is sounding protestant.