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davidv
Guest
I believe you are using the wrong definition of self-mastery. According the Catechism it is:
Then as a result you have drawn an incorrect conclusion.
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slotty
Guest
Hi OP
Fornication is the sexual union of two unmarried persons.It is not the full giving of ones self. It is at its core a disgusting perversion of a true fully open marital union.
If you want to have sex with the guy/girl why don’t you marry them? If not why would you want to have sex with them? Is it to bring about a better good in their life in the way God would want?
If the church and her teachings are given from God through Divine scripture and sacred Tradition then we should strive towards following all of them and accept that as humans we will sometimes fail in this but strive towards it none the less
OR
You should abandon everything the Catholic faith teaches fornicate as you desire, use everyone and everything to benefit yourself and not worry about anything because it was all man made and truth and morals are relative and as long as everyone in society gives it the nod then it’s ok.
We as humans are great at justifying the things we want to do/actually do as not being wrong and when we sit and really justify hard enough our actions actually are done for the better of everyone. Go ask a pro choice person why they’re pro choice and I’m sure they can give you a few reasons.
It all stems from the sin of pride. The question becomes are you humble enough to put it to prayer and trust in God and his church or will you continue determining your own moral standpoint?
Fornication is the sexual union of two unmarried persons.It is not the full giving of ones self. It is at its core a disgusting perversion of a true fully open marital union.
If you want to have sex with the guy/girl why don’t you marry them? If not why would you want to have sex with them? Is it to bring about a better good in their life in the way God would want?
If the church and her teachings are given from God through Divine scripture and sacred Tradition then we should strive towards following all of them and accept that as humans we will sometimes fail in this but strive towards it none the less
OR
You should abandon everything the Catholic faith teaches fornicate as you desire, use everyone and everything to benefit yourself and not worry about anything because it was all man made and truth and morals are relative and as long as everyone in society gives it the nod then it’s ok.
We as humans are great at justifying the things we want to do/actually do as not being wrong and when we sit and really justify hard enough our actions actually are done for the better of everyone. Go ask a pro choice person why they’re pro choice and I’m sure they can give you a few reasons.
It all stems from the sin of pride. The question becomes are you humble enough to put it to prayer and trust in God and his church or will you continue determining your own moral standpoint?
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davidv
Guest
Actually it is not up to us to prove you wrong. You are not the first person to claim to know better than the Church. It really up to you to prove that the Church is wrong. So far, you have not even come close to showing the error in Church teaching.
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LB_in_TX
Guest
May I suggest reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church pertaining to the Sixth Commandment to seek information about sexuality, etc; then seek out the advice of a priest.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
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SMA_12
Guest
Blaming the Church for the sexual revolution is like blaming a victim for getting bullied. You can’t blame the people standing up for Truth for the actions of the people who disagree with Truth.
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McDale721
Guest
Your words belie your assertion, as you completely mistate the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding sex. The Catholic Church does not teach that it should be restricted as far as possible. NFP is not about just sex for pleasure. You quite obviously don’t understand, either through lack of ability or willfulness, what you reading.
In fact, when used properly and correctly, the Church teaches us to use our sexuality as fully as possible.
I would recommend you try reading Theology of the Body for Beginners as it might help you to understnad better what we teach about sex. In fact the theology of the body is lens through which we should read documents like Humanae Vitae.
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someperson555
Guest
you completely misunderstood my standpoint. i stated that extreme permissivism is a BAD thing. i AGREE with that. but two unmarried people can indeed have a sexual relationship without over indulging.
and i disagree, sex is not something disgusting. this is the problem with extreme sexual repression it makes people fearful and disgusted with what is natural and beautiful.
i never said that morality should be ignored, i am debating about what is the true morality.
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JimG
Guest
Perhaps you should be arguing with St. Paul, who said that fornicators would not enter the kingdom of heaven. Look up some biblical exegesis on sexual immorality.
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JNdoum
Guest
Because it dehumanizes another human being. Have you ever read Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body? It explains all of your issues very well. When two people lust after each other, or have sex outside of a marriage, they are turning each other into objects for pleasure. The human body is sacred, and should be treated as such; when one has sex within marriage, it serves to strengthen the love between the two married persons and to have them open to the miracle of life, the gift which God gave us which allows us to imitate Him in his creative aspect, by creating life. This is good, virtuous, and beautiful. NFP allows the couple to remain open to life and to build up love for each other.
Now, why is marriage necessary? Because it is not, as you say a license, rather it is a Sacrament. The purpose of marriage is to join two people into “one flesh” before God, to bind them permanently into a covenant with Him, with the objective of getting each other to heaven, through mutual support, love, guidance, etc. It is a vocation, a calling from God, which the couple responds to, not a simple legal agreement within the Church; this is false thinking.
Now, why is sex outside of marriage sinful? Because it is not about God, or creating life, or getting each other to heaven. It is not part of a vocation, it is fornication plain and simple. It is using the body of another for your own pleasure (which involves selfishness, but I’ll get more into that). Think of it this way: the person whom you have sex with is a child of God. Think of what that means. The Creator of the universe created this individual, and loves him or her dearly, and died for him or her on a cross so that he or she could be with Him in love and joy forever. They are sacred human beings, and we are called to treat them like Christ, for indeed they are the Body of Christ, and whatsoever you do unto them, you have done onto Him. Then you have sex with them for no real reason other than to get your jollies off.
You could get to know the beautiful person whom God created, but you didn’t; you could have joined with this person into an eternal covenant, and made vows to love him or her forever and to help this person on their life’s journey towards holiness, but you didn’t; you could have simply been good friends with this person. Instead, you use their body as a breathing sex toy and move on. Because you deemed your pleasure more important than he or she as a person. You deemed your pleasure to be an end so great that you couldn’t wait, and show him or her a little respect, by promising to join with him or her in vows, recognized by God and His Holy Church. Instead you use them like a tissue in order to relieve your pressures, and walk off.
That person is worth more than that, and if that is the only way you can see this person, you should walk away; they deserve better treatment. We are worth more than “sex for pleasure.” God offers us the best: sex in marriage, a sacred and holy act which can create life, a thing like beautiful gems and precious stones; instead of taking that, we go for hurried nights which end in shameful slinking off into darkness, the vague feeling of being used, a thing like dog poop and cheap costume jewelry.
Sex outside of marriage is sinful because it’s bad for us, and it is just that simple. It dehumanizes other human beings, and is desensitizes us to the true beauty and meaning sex can have, in marriage. That being said, sex can still be sinful in marriage. If one uses contraceptives or aboritifacients, or even if the sex is lustful, while open to life. I would suggest reading this:
fallibleblogma.com/index.php/lusting-for-your-wife/
for more clarity on that topic, as well as Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II.
On another topic, I can say firmly that Buddhism is not at all compatible with Christianity. The “third way” you propose seems an awful lot like being lukewarm. God calls us to do more than take the middle road; He specifically calls us to take the highest road possible. lukewarm and half-attempted shots at holiness just will not cut it. Your proposal lacks sincerity and moral honesty. What on earth do you want with sex outside of marriage? I’ve seen friends who did that; it is not good. If you are a guy, you have no idea how capable you are of hurting a girl and killing your conscience. If you are a girl, you have no idea how capable you are of being hurt, and hiding your conscience away for false feelings of “love” which are insincere and pleasure driven.
I will pray for you, that you might find the path to truth, and think reasonably. Do you honestly believe that you have somehow superseded 2,000 years of knowledge contained in the Catholic Church, which was amassed by the greatest of minds and men who knew Jesus personally? I certainly don’t think I could do such a thing, and I consider myself very intelligent. Humility is important when considering such things, and it is good if we, the young (I am 15, turning 16 this October) recognize this before making statements like “the Church must be wrong on ____.”
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slotty
Guest
Ok so you brought up molested children. If someone who committed such a despicable act saidI just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
“What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want.”
Or what about someone using heroin? Someone that was stealing money from an old lady? Someone driving drunk?
Would you then turn around and say “You know what I shouldn’t tell this person they are doing something wrong at all because I don’t know how they feel and what’s going on in their life”
Doesn’t matter if you’re single or married things that are objectively wrong are objectively wrong.
If I was to put forward a post “Why adultery isn’t wrong” I’d hope you’d call me up on it.
We’re all sinners on this forum and as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ we should be helping each other with compassionate responses pulling us up when we say things that are wrong.
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underacloud
Guest
You have been shown that Christ taught against fornication (Post #23).
You have been shown, based on this and with clear logic, that Christian philosophy is thus against fornication (Post #34).
You have been provided with official Church teaching on sexual ethics (several posts linking to the catechism).
What answer would actually convince you, if the authority of Christ and His Church do not? And if they do not, I think you have greater questions to ponder than sexual ethics.
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McDale721
Guest
You are completely missing the point, your offensive statements off base. No one is condemning anyone here. We are only talking about the right way and the wrong way of using God’s gift to us. Sex should be pleasurable. In fact, now this might blow your mind, but JPII himself said that as women take longer to get aroused, husbands should delay their orgasm to time it so that they may experience orgasm together. Are these the words of a Church that represses sex, and says that it should not be pleasurable? Nope. We are only saying that there is a right way and a wrong way to use it.
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JNdoum
Guest
Perhaps you should consider why you are lonely. Sex will not solve that, when outside of marriage. If anything, it will make it worse. Your statements on the people who simply speak the truth were uncharitable, unkind, and probably untrue.I just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
I personally believe that using the sex abuse scandal to prove a point is sick; taking the true suffering and pain of young children, and the violation of sacred promises made by a priest, and the violation of the trust of so many Catholic laymen towards the priesthood, and turning it into a bullet point in your arguments is inconsiderate and hateful for no good reason. More directly, it is cruel, like bringing up an instance of someone being brutally raped as a child every time you had an argument with them. Do you know people on here had children who were so abused? Did you know people on here were abused that way themselves, if not by priests, by others, perhaps even family members? Stop that kind of argument, it is never okay.
Ad hominem attacks, such as the ones you base your rant on, are ridiculous and illogical. Let us surmise, for a moment, that the married couples indeed did as you suggested. Does that justify doing wrong yourself? Doesn’t that make you twice as wrong, as you know and condemn this wrong in others, yet somehow justify it in yourself? If I was a serial rapist, are you saying that would make it hunky dory for you to do the same? Where is your logic?
I find it hard to sympathize with pain which just seems a lot like naive whining to me, and I apologize for my tone there, but I had to be frank. Sex does not solve your problems, it just adds on new problems. If you are lonely, turn to God, your family, your friends. Your boyfriend and girlfriend if need be. You can be held without having sex.
I apologize here for my rough words, but I feel they are somewhat necessary. I do understand that it seems difficult, and you feel attacked, but you are not. We are here to lend advice to someone we see as having gone astray. I assure you none of the people here (or at least, I don’t) think of you badly, or are trying to verbally crucify you for your feeling or actions. The point is rather, that there is a right way, and a wrong way, and feelings can, often as not, lead you down the wrong path. We just want to help guide you off of that path, and back onto the right one. I want to let you know that everything I say here to you, I try to say with love, and that I will pray for you to find comfort for your loneliness, whatever form it may take. God bless you.
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slotty
Guest
You’re absolutely right sex in and of itself is not disgusting. It is a wonderful thing designed to unite a husband and wife (Gen 2:24). It is there to allow the continuation of the species (Gen1:28)
Sex is neutral.
Sexual desires are neutral
It’s what and how we do them that makes them what they are
sex != fornication
Fornication is an act of sex that opposes the will of God.
I would suggest reading JP II’s Theology of the Body and Love & Responsibility
I have only had cursory glances but it’s some amazing stuff!
God Bless
Gen 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
Gen 1:28 "God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number;"
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number2wilkins
Guest
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LB_in_TX
Guest
In the end it’s all about our faith in the Church begun by Christ, followed through over the millenium by the magisterium. We may only provide what we believe to be the truth, it is then up to the individual to accept it. Ultimately, it’s between the individual and God.
Am I a sinner? Had I committed grave sins in my youth? Will I sin again? Am I penitent now in my heart?
Yes to all.
God Bless!
Am I a sinner? Had I committed grave sins in my youth? Will I sin again? Am I penitent now in my heart?
Yes to all.
God Bless!
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Delaine75
Guest
We cannot pick and choose what we want to believe and accept are mortal sins. People can and will twist things around in order to rationalize a sin. At the end of the day, whether you accept fornication as a mortal sin or not, you will still have to answer to God. 
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SusansChoice
Guest
There was a time that I felt much as you do. In fact, I left the church over it many years ago. It is only now, at the age of 59, that I understand exactly why sex outside of marriage is wrong.
I was very much a part of the sexual revolution. Once we had the pill, we could be promiscuous without the worry of pregnancy. That was one of the biggest causes of the destruction of the family. Who needed marriage? I didn’t, and guess what? those pills don’t always work. I raised a child alone in poverty without a father. Now my child has 2 children by 2 fathers they have never known, and they live in poverty.
How many single, desperate pregnant women do you think have aborted their children?
The majority of abortions are not performed on married women…
The sexual revolution has caused poverty, abortion, the spread of HIV and other desease, and has greatly contributed to the moral decline of our society.
It is only now that I look back and see so clearly why sex outside of marriage is wrong, and, I feel guilty that I was a part of it
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Gorgias
Guest
This much is correct. Sex is not intrinsically evil; there are licit circumstances in which sex is good.
No, fornication isn’t a sin because it “lead(s) to selfishness”; fornication is a sin because it is the result of selfishness! It’s not a cause, it’s a symptom!
You’re being a bit sloppy in your language; you conflate the notions ‘sex’ and ‘fornication’, and it hurts your argument. Do you mean to say that “if a person can fornicate in a temperant (sic) responsible fashion, then it shouldn’t be a mortal sin”? If so, what’s your argument? Please note that your argument should address what makes a particular sin (such as fornication), sinful. Your notion of “leading to selfishness” doesn’t work, so we’ll need something else to go with. In addition, your argument should speak to the question of the authority by which something is considered sinful. After all, if the definition of sin is an offense to God, then we need to establish who is able to assert what is offensive to God, shouldn’t we? Without this sort of ground rule, then definitions of sin turn into a simple exercise of “mob rules”…!
Blessings,
G.
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thewanderer
Guest
Ok, so I know you’ve already received a whole bunch of varied responses, but I thought maybe I should say something seeing as I am in a similar boat as you. I am a single Catholic. I am also supposed to refrain from sex even though I am wired to have sex, and somehow I manage. This is even though I have a serious relationship with someone and am planning on marrying them as soon as the finances become feasible. This is even though we, who love each other dearly and are more than ready to be married have absolutely no determinate end in sight to this waiting period as we are stuck waiting in this horrible economy for jobs to work out so that we will be able to support ourselves. And yet, despite all of this I have no angst against the Church’s teachings on sexuality, mostly because I agree entirely with them. Sex is such a precious thing, it is so personal and beautiful and just unbelievably good when played out as it should be, that I can’t imagine ever having sex with someone who isn’t willing to commit to me forever. I can’t imagine having sex with someone, giving myself so completely, freely, and vulnerably to someone who was not doing the same. I can’t imagine doing that because the kind of sex that would be would be so much less than what I want out of sex, so much less than what sex can and should be. It just seems cheap, without the context of truly self-giving marriage. And trust me on this one, I am hardly some prude with sexual hangups because of some restrictive upbringing. Honestly, from your post, it sounds like you (and the OP as well) really don’t understand what the Church actually teaches about sex at all. You have heard some of it, you know some of the details, and perhaps believe some things which are not true at all, but you have entirely missed the real substance of the teaching. At its core it is a remarkably beautiful teaching, ultimately, the Church ‘puts restrictions on sex’ as you say, not because they are against pleasure, or don’t understand what singles go through, but rather they look at sex and see what it is truly supposed to look like, they see it in all of its splendour and glory, and say, you know what, these kind of actions (fornication, lust, adultery, etc etc) are just twisted perversions of this amazing and beautiful gift of sexuality that God has given us, lets warn people not to settle for the twisted perversions when they could instead, if they aimed for it, have the real deal in its full splendour. The Church doesn’t hate sex or think it is evil. In fact, it believes quite the contrary.I just want to see the hands raised of all those Catholic married couples who post here that in times that they have “gotten together” that they “ALWAYS” treated it as a time to “bring forth children”. Hmmm…didn’t think so.
Yep, none of you have ever wanted your spouse to just go all animal on you between the sheets. Yeah, and no priests have ever molested children either. You’re so pious as to tell us single people who are CONSTANTLY denying ourselves that you find no pleasure in the conjunal act, only you do it for procreation. SURE…
And yes, as a catholic, SINGLE MIND YOU, I know exactly what the church teaches. You all are so ready to throw stones at those of us who don’t have sex even though WE ARE WIRED, MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, to have sex, that our feelings don’t matter.
What I do, is between me, my Lord, and my confessor. Keep condemning us all you want. You don’t know how lonely we are to be held.
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