Why sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter LethalMouse
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Something looks better to the will than God’s good pleasure. That’s it.

Let me paint the picture for you differently. You are in the hands of the Persians, who want you to deny Christ. They have put you in the boats (Google “scaphism”). All you need to do to be released is say the magic words. As you rot into oblivion, escaping the flies and maggots begins to look worth the sin.

Most sins are not deliberate like that. You see someone attractive, the passions rise for a few seconds, the will delays in shutting it down… You talk about someone in an inordinate way in casual conversation… You are put in an awkward situation and quickly make up a little lie to smooth it over… You wave to someone right after receiving the Lord in Holy Communion… Etc. We should not deceive ourselves here. We sin all the time without deliberation.
 
e_c said:
Something looks better to the will than God’s good pleasure. That’s it.

Let me paint the picture for you differently. You are in the hands of the Persians, who want you to deny Christ. They have put you in the boats (Google “scaphism”). All you need to do to be released is say the magic words. As you rot into oblivion, escaping the flies and maggots begins to look worth the sin.

Most sins are not deliberate like that. You see someone attractive, the passions rise for a few seconds, the will delays in shutting it down… You talk about someone in an inordinate way in casual conversation… You are put in an awkward situation and quickly make up a little lie to smooth it over… You wave to someone right after receiving the Lord in Holy Communion… Etc. We should not deceive ourselves here. We sin all the time without deliberation.
Click to expand...
Without arguing over scrupulous considerations, in relation to your persian example. This is where my logic hurts.

If doubt then sure I see the logic, but if not doubt I don’t. I would give a partial nod in this most extreme example due to the epicness of the suffering. But for smaller things?

For example flesh sins, is not getting off more torturous than the appeal of eternal bliss? Which would you know be like the getting off times 200000 for you kniw eternity?
 
LethalMouse said:
…many protestants with the grace alone theory answer they sin because grace means they can…
Click to expand...
This is not really defensible even from a protestant point of view. “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!” (Romans 6:1-2, NIV)

A more biblical protestant answer would be that I sin because I am fallen, and I am weak. “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:21-25, NIV)
 
Lydia739 said:
This is not really defensible even from a protestant point of view. “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!” (Romans 6:1-2, NIV)

A more biblical protestant answer would be that I sin because I am fallen, and I am weak. “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.” (Romans 7:21-25, NIV)
Click to expand...
I was referring to the logical decision made at the moment of sin, not the overarching philosophy.

The protestants who have answered my question all end up with “I sin because God will forgive me anyway” This isn’t to say it is true or right other than it is why THEY CHOOSE to sin.

The only other answer I have ever gotten from someone without doubt was I DONT KNOW…and again this speaks to my mindset. I have to personally have an exact reason to commit a sin, while others may not, I can only presume at least one person somewhere in the world needs one as I do…I can not be that truly unique in a world of 7 billion people…
 
Do people only smoke because they doubt it will blacken their lungs and the other side effects?

The long term goal/effect can seem distant or even as something to be resolved later, over the satisfaction of the moment which is so near and feels more pressing.
 
Wesrock said:
Do people only smoke because they doubt it will blacken their lungs and the other side effects?

The long term goal/effect can seem distant or even as something to be resolved later, over the satisfaction of the moment which is so near and feels more pressing.
Click to expand...
I smoke because from a family of smokers they lived long with minimal health issues and I have remained healthy and in good shape.

I smoke knowing constant advances in medical technology that by the time anything happened I am most likely going to be okay (literally about 10 yrs away from serveral things being released I follow)

But with the genetics, I would most likely have time to quit prior to ill effect. It is not perfect, but a calculated risk… and one that is most likely accurate.

Again I have an actual reason… I have met people who smoke and have bad genetics, and don’t even enjoy it… I don’t comprehend them either. … they hurt my brain.
 
LethalMouse said:
Without arguing over scrupulous considerations, in relation to your persian example. This is where my logic hurts.

If doubt then sure I see the logic, but if not doubt I don’t. I would give a partial nod in this most extreme example due to the epicness of the suffering. But for smaller things?

For example flesh sins, is not getting off more torturous than the appeal of eternal bliss? Which would you know be like the getting off times 200000 for you kniw eternity?
Click to expand...
I don’t think you are understanding that the will is not the same as the intellect. They influence each other, but they are not the same. They are distinguished by their object… One seeks the truth, the other seeks the good. In EVERY deliberate sin, inasmuch as the intellect is involved, there is at least a “kind” of doubt, but the doubt is about the goodness of what options lie before you.

This would maybe even apply to sins involving no deliberation, provided we understand the extent of the qualification put on “doubt.” You just “feel like” it’s the better thing to let yourself have a moment of hubris, although this in some distant way could be traced to the intellect as an operant factor.

A quick definition of virtue might be useful… Rational behavior. Yes, irrational behavior is possible, even though the person could be rational in that moment!

Does any of this help?
 
Let’s flip the script.

LM - Let me take a guess and say you are not cooperating perfectly with the grace you possess… Why do you not do more penance, prayer, evangelization, and self-sacrifice? It is illogical for you not to, you know…

See what I’m getting at?
 
e_c said:
Let’s flip the script.

LM - Let me take a guess and say you are not cooperating perfectly with the grace you possess… Why do you not do more penance, prayer, evangelization, and self-sacrifice? It is illogical for you not to, you know…

See what I’m getting at?
Click to expand...
It is wholly logical that my twinge of doubt states at cobsideration of doing these things, that there may be no one there to do them for.

I came to a conclusion that I can argue atheism better than most atheists and I can argue God better then most theists… where does that leave me?

Well, simply God is the safer choice. And being Catholic doesn’t hurt me… I like it and I happen to generally think Catholic teaching is good ideas. But when looking at non crime sins… (Even when being atheisty I barely “sin”)… so with the non crime sins anyway I have to take stock if they can be justified from an earthly standpoint. Which they can mostly due to society…(in a perfect world I like God’s ideas better) but in our world if…IF there weren’t a God than certain things change their value based on society. So I can reconcile the commision of the sin with the logic that I do not “know” God is absolutely real.

If God would pop in and appear clearly to me? I highly doubt I would have the ability to commit these sins. As they would nit make any sense.

I might add I do get “feelings” and have even seen some things… but none of which are not questionable via psychology. So there is great fear in giving in to things seen or felt and having it be psychological crazy and not divine intervention. Again that same doubt is what affects me. As nithing has been done in the most super clear and corporeal manner.
 
e_c said:
Let’s flip the script.

LM - Let me take a guess and say you are not cooperating perfectly with the grace you possess… Why do you not do more penance, prayer, evangelization, and self-sacrifice? It is illogical for you not to, you know…

See what I’m getting at?
Click to expand...
Oh and direct answers…

Penance - I am not entirely sure I am truly sorry for the sins. As I am truly sorry if I offended God, but am not sure I did for the obvious reason stated in my post (however I do pray for guidance on the subject)

Prayer - actually slowly upping my prayer game regularly, so I DO lol…

Evangelization - I look to certain circumstances and know my limitations as I am still newer to being home. Ironically in regards to this post I just evangelized a lapse catholic a bit tonight.

Self sacrifice - not exactly sure the exact context of what you’d want me to do… I have two helping people jobs and volunteer with kids… I give to charity (I might up it a bit if not for doubt) and I help people I come across in life financially and such sometimes. Again I’d maybe up my game a bit if not for doubt.
 
LethalMouse said:
…
If God would pop in and appear clearly to me? I highly doubt I would have the ability to commit these sins. As they would n[o]t make any sense…
Click to expand...
God appears clearly in the conscience. The Catechism shows the teaching that sin is not rational. Collins (American) Dictionary “make sense”: to be intelligible or logical.

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.
 
Vico said:
God appears clearly in the conscience. The Catechism shows the teaching that sin is not rational. Collins (American) Dictionary “make sense”: to be intelligible or logical.

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1872 Sin is an act contrary to reason. It wounds man’s nature and injures human solidarity.
Click to expand...
If God showed up “clearly” there’d be no such thing as an atheist… I think you and I differ on our understanding of such a thing.

Sins of the flesh, with scientific advances one can negate most ill effects. I would agree that God’s got some high value points on how to conduct but if there were not God then although those points are theoretically valid, they dont work in a society full of people who do not adhere to them.
 
LethalMouse said:
If God showed up “clearly” there’d be no such thing as an atheist… I think you and I differ on our understanding of such a thing.

Sins of the flesh, with scientific advances one can negate most ill effects. I would agree that God’s got some high value points on how to conduct but if there were not God then although those points are theoretically valid, they dont work in a society full of people who do not adhere to them.
Click to expand...
So you are giving the definition of clearly then.

What is your response on sin not being rational?
 
Vico said:
So you are giving the definition of clearly then.

What is your response on sin not being rational?
Click to expand...
Please note, I am not actually arguing against CCC or against God, I am stating how that logic is used within one’s own mind to allow sin. And therefore the question becomes for someone who can not think against those two, what their purpose is in sinning. Not seeing God is rationale for sins…whereas when one sees Him, their rationale is________???
 
LethalMouse said:
Please note, I am not actually arguing against CCC or against God, I am stating how that logic is used within one’s own mind to allow sin. And therefore the question becomes for someone who can not think against those two, what their purpose is in sinning. Not seeing God is rationale for sins…whereas when one sees Him, their rationale is________???
Click to expand...
So you mean justification or motive for doing an act, rather than rational (logical). It could be rationalizations?
 
Our reason and knowledge is corrupted. By pride and un-reasonable desires.
The pull of “the world” or “the flesh” overcomes reason.

In this way, we do not truly know The Good.
We know something, we do not know someone. So there is a difference between having an intellectual knowledge of a particular matter, and a knowing of God. The knowing and being known of God is a matter that possesses the whole person, not just the intellect.

For instance, I know that to engage in lust is an offense against God and is un-reasonable. That knowledge is not fully conformed to the person of Christ however. My vision, perception, and attainment of that knowledge is clouded by the various human imperfections and corrupted desires.

I see dimly that which I think I know, because I am to one degree or another, not united with Christ.
In the beatific vision, the intellectual knowledge of right and wrong, “the law”, will be transcended by the intense desire to please and praise God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top