D
duneman
Guest
I dont slam em but don’t like Protestant Doctrine saying Office of Pope is the Anti Christ! any group that says that cannot be taken seriously , really !!
- Status
O
OldYoungGuy
Guest
People often call it slamming Protestants when what is really be slammed is a protestant ideal, and unfortunately these ideals find their way into Catholic circles. This is why many priests are forced to confront these issues. We use the term protestant to explain a “Christian” idea that is not Catholic, this doesn’t mean that we think every protestant believes everything that every other protestant believes. Some ideas are more prominent than others, but when an idea is presented as Christian but conflicts with the teachings of The Church, what other label would you have us use.
My brother lamented to my father shortly before leaving the Church to my father who was a convert, “I bring my fiance to church, but why do they have to bash protestants all the time?” My father responded that in all his years he had never experienced this even in the years before he converted.
I think “Protestant bashing” can sometimes be code for “You are not enough of a relativist”. The Pope himself has lamented the presence of “relativism” in the Church. The priest in my parish has probably been accused of “Slamming protestants”, but he is merely explaining ideas that all of us have been exposed to are wrong. And somebody has to have the charity to call things like they are.
Call me biased because I’ve seen my brothers, the majority of all the Catholic friends I’ve been raised with leave the Church and I know it wasn’t because the priests, parents, or other teachers of the faith were rampant protestant bashers. It was because they were never slapped upside the head with the truth. Sometimes for the sake of peoples souls you must call a spade a spade.
-I now step off my soapbox.
My brother lamented to my father shortly before leaving the Church to my father who was a convert, “I bring my fiance to church, but why do they have to bash protestants all the time?” My father responded that in all his years he had never experienced this even in the years before he converted.
I think “Protestant bashing” can sometimes be code for “You are not enough of a relativist”. The Pope himself has lamented the presence of “relativism” in the Church. The priest in my parish has probably been accused of “Slamming protestants”, but he is merely explaining ideas that all of us have been exposed to are wrong. And somebody has to have the charity to call things like they are.
Call me biased because I’ve seen my brothers, the majority of all the Catholic friends I’ve been raised with leave the Church and I know it wasn’t because the priests, parents, or other teachers of the faith were rampant protestant bashers. It was because they were never slapped upside the head with the truth. Sometimes for the sake of peoples souls you must call a spade a spade.
-I now step off my soapbox.
A
ajpirc
Guest
I think it’s usually only fundamentalists. Mainline Protestants are actually more “Catholic” than I ever thought.
O
OldYoungGuy
Guest
I am not trying to bash you, but this is part of the problem. Many Catholics are unable to distinct the differences. A lady who converted to Lutheranism told me her pastor taught her that the Catholic Church in the creed was actually the “catholic church” meaning all Christian churches. With what authority could he tell her this. Protestants are not part of The Church. They are not in communion with The Church and this needs to be said, not to exclude them, but for them to realize that to be members of The Church they must embrace ALL Her doctrines and formally become a member of Her.
L
lil_flower_luv
Guest
Very good answer.
And I would add I’ve seen just as much distaste shown toward Catholics by non-Catholics on this board. We know you might be angry or confused, but that’s no excuse for some of the behavior I’ve seen. YOU’RE the one on a Catholic messaging board.
B
BenedictOblate
Guest
I’m not sure if your post is serious, but by your definition, then we should refer to the SSPX as neo-protestants.
W
WFS5801
Guest
Actually you’ll still find this linked at the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod’s website:
A
ajpirc
Guest
Is the Missouri Synod the US branch of Lutheranism?
A
Alix1912
Guest
All the Divine Services have sung and chanted parts. I love them because it makes the service feel more serious and real. Divine Service one in the new hymnal is my favorite (used to be Divine service two in the Blue one). This Is The Feast Of Victory is my favorite hymn, it was sung EVERY sunday in the church I grew up in.
Actually “catholic” means universal. Roman Catholic means the Catholic Church as it is used in on this forum. All Christian Churches that recognize the Triune God are considered part of the catholic (little c) church. This was explained to me by both of the priests who have led my husband’s parrish. As to being in full communion with the RCC, I don’t think you will find any protestant that claims that. Just as the RCC is not considered to be in full communion with the LCMS. Hence just as per your rules someone who is not a full member of the RCC cannot take communion in your church, per our rules you cannot take it in our church if you are not in communion with the LCMS.
Yeah, that’s actually being pretty hotly debated in the LCMS community right now, as many pastors and area bishops feel that it is a somewhat antiquated thing held over from the bad blood of the reformation which reared it’s head in the 1800’s as well. Many are arguing that the while yes there have been some pretty bad popes in the past, the current state of the RCC is much closer to what Luther was trying to create, and we need to move psat the issues of the past and work together and this type of statement works against it. I wouldn’t be shocked to see this revised or done away with soon.
W
WFS5801
Guest
The simplified version? In Transubstantiation Christ’s Body and Blood are actually present, only the appearance of bread and wine remain in the Sacrament. In consubstantiation Christ’s Body and Blood are actually present along with the substance of bread and wine. The debate is much older than Lutheranism vs Catholicism (and Lutherans don’t use the term “consubstantiation” – but I really don’t know how their “Sacred Union” doctrine is different from consubstantiation).
newadvent.org/cathen/04322a.htm
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Alix1912
Guest
Yes. It does not exist really in Europe, though we do have missonary churches in Africa.
A
Alix1912
Guest
It has always seemed like spliting hairs to me. How it is his body and blood, while still looking and tasting like bread and wine is a mystery, and I’m OK not really knowing exactly how it works. If I get to heaven and its one or the other, it’s not going to freak me out eitherway.
I kinda have that view on several of the Lutheran Catholic doctrinal differences. If I get to heaven and confirmation really was a seperate sacrament rather than a continuation or fulfillment of Baptism or vs. versa…I’ really Ok with that. Same with Marriage being a sacred rite or a sacrament. I think there are bigger issues for me to worry about than these.
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laszlo
Guest
Because we failed to follow the remedy for the problem against the secular word: we Christians should see in each other the values, not the differences, and should keep together against the real evil.
A
Alix1912
Guest
J
JReducation
Guest
I believe that Catholics who slam Protestants are not reading or paying attention to what the Church is saying about the Reformation communities and what the Church wants to achieve. There is a tendency to read up to Pius X and stop there. But the problem with that is that the relationship between Protestants and Catholics during Pope Pius’ time was very different.
The differences between Catholics and Protestants are not as marked as they were then. The differences in dogma and moral theology are still there. But the difference in daily life are not. There was a time when Catholics lived in Catholic ghettos. They were usually immigrant poor. There was also a time when nations identified as Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican and so forth. Those days are no longer.
Today, Protestants and Catholics are colleagues at work, live in the same neighborhoods, take their kids to the same ballet lessons and cheer for the same football teams. In other words, the hate and the pain that once separated us is decreasing. This is good.
Pope John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have worked very hard on getting us to the next level. Now that we no longer segregate, it’s time to begin to do more Christian things together: pray, take care of the poor, stand together against the culture of death, protect our children from secularism and pornography, discuss the things that we believe in common.
The pope have asked us to drop the labels: heretics, apostates, and whatever other labels we had for Protestants. Pope John Paul made it clear that there is a difference between a heresy and a heretic. Canon law applies the term only to Catholics who obstinately deny truth. Canon Law was written only for Latin Catholics. Even the Oriental Catholics follow a different Code of Canon Law.
The Church recognizes the primacy of Catholicism and teaches that the fullness of Christ’s Church subsists in the Catholic Church. However, she does not deny that there are parts of the truth to be found among the Reformation communities. To ignore that is to become blind to the transcendence of truth.
The Church does not ask Catholics to roll over and play dead when under attack by other people, including Catholics. But she does remind us that Christ, in some mysterious way that we don’t understand, uses these communities to save. She acknowledges that she can be found in the Reformation communities, even as a shadow.
If we’re reading what the Church is saying and what she’s asking us to do in order to further the cause of Christian unity, we should not be slamming Protestants. To do so is sabotaging the work of the Church, the plans of the popes and their hopes.
I truly believe that it’s part of the human condition, maybe a product of Original Sin, to sabotage ourselves before we begin an enterprise. We have to be very aware of this tendency and try to exercise restraint.
In dealing with people of other faiths I always ask myself a very simple question. “What would Pope John Paul do in this case? How would Pope Benedict say this?” OK, I’m biased. They are my heroes when it comes to dealing with people of other faiths. They have been the most enthusiastic in the area of interfaith dialog. They are great role models of men of faith, men who are faithful to the Church and men who are very good in dealing with non-Catholics in a manner that is gentle, clear and creates trust rather than antagonism.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
The differences between Catholics and Protestants are not as marked as they were then. The differences in dogma and moral theology are still there. But the difference in daily life are not. There was a time when Catholics lived in Catholic ghettos. They were usually immigrant poor. There was also a time when nations identified as Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican and so forth. Those days are no longer.
Today, Protestants and Catholics are colleagues at work, live in the same neighborhoods, take their kids to the same ballet lessons and cheer for the same football teams. In other words, the hate and the pain that once separated us is decreasing. This is good.
Pope John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have worked very hard on getting us to the next level. Now that we no longer segregate, it’s time to begin to do more Christian things together: pray, take care of the poor, stand together against the culture of death, protect our children from secularism and pornography, discuss the things that we believe in common.
The pope have asked us to drop the labels: heretics, apostates, and whatever other labels we had for Protestants. Pope John Paul made it clear that there is a difference between a heresy and a heretic. Canon law applies the term only to Catholics who obstinately deny truth. Canon Law was written only for Latin Catholics. Even the Oriental Catholics follow a different Code of Canon Law.
The Church recognizes the primacy of Catholicism and teaches that the fullness of Christ’s Church subsists in the Catholic Church. However, she does not deny that there are parts of the truth to be found among the Reformation communities. To ignore that is to become blind to the transcendence of truth.
The Church does not ask Catholics to roll over and play dead when under attack by other people, including Catholics. But she does remind us that Christ, in some mysterious way that we don’t understand, uses these communities to save. She acknowledges that she can be found in the Reformation communities, even as a shadow.
If we’re reading what the Church is saying and what she’s asking us to do in order to further the cause of Christian unity, we should not be slamming Protestants. To do so is sabotaging the work of the Church, the plans of the popes and their hopes.
I truly believe that it’s part of the human condition, maybe a product of Original Sin, to sabotage ourselves before we begin an enterprise. We have to be very aware of this tendency and try to exercise restraint.
In dealing with people of other faiths I always ask myself a very simple question. “What would Pope John Paul do in this case? How would Pope Benedict say this?” OK, I’m biased. They are my heroes when it comes to dealing with people of other faiths. They have been the most enthusiastic in the area of interfaith dialog. They are great role models of men of faith, men who are faithful to the Church and men who are very good in dealing with non-Catholics in a manner that is gentle, clear and creates trust rather than antagonism.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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NewsTheMan
Guest
I do not think there is a need to slam protestants as individuals.
However, I think it’s all about fear. I certainly do fear protestantism within the Church. Get this - I’ve been called by fellow parishioners a “papist” and an “archaic fool who wants to follow Rome”. Hmmm? Now, I understand that is just poor Catechesis. But it goes far beyond that. That is anti-Catholicism. And how does a Catholic get that way?
There is also a fear of Protetants themselves - who often times know more scripture and have more knowledge to “refute” claims to the average Catholic.
All in all, if we were better Catechised we might be more inclined to be nicer to our Protestant brethren. The big issue is educating the faithful; only then can we say “right, now we need to be nice to Protestants”.
However, I think it’s all about fear. I certainly do fear protestantism within the Church. Get this - I’ve been called by fellow parishioners a “papist” and an “archaic fool who wants to follow Rome”. Hmmm? Now, I understand that is just poor Catechesis. But it goes far beyond that. That is anti-Catholicism. And how does a Catholic get that way?
There is also a fear of Protetants themselves - who often times know more scripture and have more knowledge to “refute” claims to the average Catholic.
All in all, if we were better Catechised we might be more inclined to be nicer to our Protestant brethren. The big issue is educating the faithful; only then can we say “right, now we need to be nice to Protestants”.
M
markomalley
Guest
While some of it is childish, you might hear some “that’s too protestant” speaking of liturgical matters because protestantism is historically anti-sacramental. It should be noted that the “reformed” wing of protestantism is far more “anti-sacramental” than the Lutheran wing (although that is not usually expressed).
On liturgical matters, you might see situations where people might complain about illicit local innovations that tend to downplay the sacramental nature of the liturgy because of the effect that it can have on peoples’ beliefs. (remember Lex Orandi Lex Credendi?)
There are a number of different areas, but the liturgical area immediately came to mind.
One thing to remember, though, before judging somebody to be “patronizing and at the very worst hateful toward protestantism” is that there are many fundamental differences between the various protestant theologies and the theology handed down from the apostles and embraced by the Church. Is the person clumsily highlighting those differences? Or is the person clearly attacking another individual?
If you are dealing with the first situation, you might ask him/her to clarify and be more specific. If you are dealing with the second situation, I would suggest using the “report” button. Remember that the CAF rules say, “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” – so if a comment is uncharitable toward a non-Catholic, the post should not be allowed to stand.
J
JReducation
Guest
I just wanted to chime in with one comment about “too Protestant” whne people refer to liturgy and to church architecture. It’s funny that you mentioned this. Just yesterday some said to me, “Brother, don’t you think that your chapel is too Protestant?”
I asked the person why she said this. She pointed to the absence of saints, no candles, no communion rail, no kneelers, the altar is a table about three free in front of the tabernacle and instead of a crucifix we have the San Damiano Icon on the center wall. The crucifix is on the side wall over the presidential chair. The chapel is painted all white. There is a hint of stain glass over the door.
I smiled and said, "Actually, it’s very Franciscan. We can’t help it that Luther was an Augustinian. Augustinians, Franciscans, Carthusians and Cistercians never had all those things in our chapels and churches, unless we inherited a building with all of it in it. But if we built it ourselves, it will always be a very plain room with an altar as the focal point and maybe a statue of the Blessed Mother and St. Francis, if the chapel is large enough. Otherwise, only St. Francis or the statues may be in a corner in the back, not in the front. The Augustinians, Carthudisians and Cistercians didn’t have a statue at all. To this day, Carthusians and Cistercians do not have any of these things, not even stain glass.
The point is that lot of what we see in Protestant Churches, especially Lutheran and Anglical is what they took with them when they left the Catholic Church. Over the centuries, our art and architecture evolved, became more elaborate and colorful, while they preserved their original designs However, the religious orders did not evolve and we continued building Protestant looking chapels that are not really Protestant, but in fact predate Protestantism.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
A
Alix1912
Guest
Excellent points. Thank you.I believe that Catholics who slam Protestants are not reading or paying attention to what the Church is saying about the Reformation communities and what the Church wants to achieve. There is a tendency to read up to Pius X and stop there. But the problem with that is that the relationship between Protestants and Catholics during Pope Pius’ time was very different.
The differences between Catholics and Protestants are not as marked as they were then. The differences in dogma and moral theology are still there. But the difference in daily life are not. There was a time when Catholics lived in Catholic ghettos. They were usually immigrant poor. There was also a time when nations identified as Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican and so forth. Those days are no longer.
Today, Protestants and Catholics are colleagues at work, live in the same neighborhoods, take their kids to the same ballet lessons and cheer for the same football teams. In other words, the hate and the pain that once separated us is decreasing. This is good.
Pope John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have worked very hard on getting us to the next level. Now that we no longer segregate, it’s time to begin to do more Christian things together: pray, take care of the poor, stand together against the culture of death, protect our children from secularism and pornography, discuss the things that we believe in common.
The pope have asked us to drop the labels: heretics, apostates, and whatever other labels we had for Protestants. Pope John Paul made it clear that there is a difference between a heresy and a heretic. Canon law applies the term only to Catholics who obstinately deny truth. Canon Law was written only for Latin Catholics. Even the Oriental Catholics follow a different Code of Canon Law.
The Church recognizes the primacy of Catholicism and teaches that the fullness of Christ’s Church subsists in the Catholic Church. However, she does not deny that there are parts of the truth to be found among the Reformation communities. To ignore that is to become blind to the transcendence of truth.
The Church does not ask Catholics to roll over and play dead when under attack by other people, including Catholics. But she does remind us that Christ, in some mysterious way that we don’t understand, uses these communities to save. She acknowledges that she can be found in the Reformation communities, even as a shadow.
If we’re reading what the Church is saying and what she’s asking us to do in order to further the cause of Christian unity, we should not be slamming Protestants. To do so is sabotaging the work of the Church, the plans of the popes and their hopes.
I truly believe that it’s part of the human condition, maybe a product of Original Sin, to sabotage ourselves before we begin an enterprise. We have to be very aware of this tendency and try to exercise restraint.
In dealing with people of other faiths I always ask myself a very simple question. “What would Pope John Paul do in this case? How would Pope Benedict say this?” OK, I’m biased. They are my heroes when it comes to dealing with people of other faiths. They have been the most enthusiastic in the area of interfaith dialog. They are great role models of men of faith, men who are faithful to the Church and men who are very good in dealing with non-Catholics in a manner that is gentle, clear and creates trust rather than antagonism.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I think poor education is often a problem on both sides. I am irked by protestants who level untrue claims against the Catholic Church. (For the umteenth time they do not worship Mary, and yes they do actually read the bible). I am also irked by Catholics who attack protestants without a base understanding of their own faith let alone the ones they are attacking. I often find the more educated people are the more they are willing to engage in scholarly debate rather than attacks and one liners.
C
convert999
Guest
I converted from a Evangelical/Fundamentalist backround 2 years ago. It is impossible to generalize about any Protestant denomination, since so many splinter groups exist. I struggled with a bad attitude towards Evangelicals since people from my old church would come to my house and tell me I was casting my lot with Satan. One of them tried to remove the crucifix from my wall. When I meet people from this church in the grocery store, they will not even look at me. I was uninvited to Easter dinner with my own family since “Easter can’t possibly have any meaning to you anymore.” The level of persecution amazed me (still does!) HOWEVER, not all Protestants are like this, thankfully. I have made Protestant friends who wouldn’t dream of acting this way. But I won’t deny that my attitude towards people from this particular church has sent me to Confession more than once. 
- Status