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estesbob
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I cant find all these factions and sects in my encyclopedia. Can you give us a list of them?
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PaperMoon
Guest
That verse is a perfect way to explain the birth of the Protestant churches!
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PaperMoon
Guest
That is so true! Amen!
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PaperMoon
Guest
Not unless you expect the Catholic Church to hold people hostage and force them ot stay! Did Jesus fail because He could not keep Judas from straying?Let’s suppose for one moment that the Roman Catholic Church is the one and only true church. Then all the Protestant denominations and other religions are the result of the one and only true church failing to keep unification within its ranks. So, it pretty much failed at its mission. Wouldn’t ya say?
Bamm
This verse explains it well:
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would
have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.
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jblake
Guest
sahara;:
it is only with Landmarkism that groups did not attempt to patch things up, before splitting off.
xan
jonathon
The usual case was that the group that was later excommunicated did try to discuss matters, to resolve issues, and maintain a unified church.
it is only with Landmarkism that groups did not attempt to patch things up, before splitting off.
With the Reformation movement, the reformers simply compared the practices of the Early Church to that of the current Church, and concluded that something had gone amiss. Since there was neither scriptural support, nor a tradition that dated back to the Apostles, they wanted an explanation of why what the Church was doing was God’s Will and not Man’s Will.
As opposed to accepting the word of an organization that does not have a system of checks against which data can be examined.
xan
jonathon
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jblake
Guest
jmcrae; said:(And if he was trying to reform the Church, then why did he begin to promulgate heresy? That seems counterproductive, to me.)
The heresy he taught was that the church practiced greed and avarice. This is something that was blatantly obvious to all and sundry. His theology was solidly based upon earlier Church doctrine.
xan
jonathon
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jblake
Guest
estesbob;:
xan
jonathon
- Old Catholic;
- Traditional Catholic;
- Liberal Catholic
to give just three groups that consider themselves to be Catholic, but which are regarded by the Holy See to be borderline, if not outright heretical.
xan
jonathon
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estesbob
Guest
These are not sperate denomination-all are in full communion with Rome. You claimed you could easily give us a list. i would appreciate you doing so.
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DebChris
Guest
This is a return to riding the merry-go round of previous discussions on this thread. When I go to Mass, I do not ask the person beside me if he is liberal or conservative or if he considers himself a traditionalist. All of us worship together. Each of us, according to his own conscience, receives the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist. We do not disagree on the fundamental doctrines of our Faith.
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BrianH
Guest
The Old Catholics, Liberal catholics, and other groups are not in communion with Rome, what are you talking about???
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estesbob
Guest
I said they are in FULL communion with RomeThe Old Catholics, Liberal catholics, and other groups are not in communion with Rome, what are you talking about???
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jmcrae
Guest
No - the heresies he promoted were invincible concupiscience (human beings are not capable of obedience to God) and justification by faith alone (obedience, being impossible, is therefore not necessary).
He also taught that the individual can interpret the Scriptures privately (the notion that the Holy Spirit can have different and conflicting messages for each individual person, which they can find in Scripture through private interpretation, yet still consider themselves to have a doctrinally sound theology, despite believing mutually contradictory things).
He also cut off the priesthood, together with the power of the Sacraments, and created his own service of worship in place of the Mass.
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jmcrae
Guest
Liberal Catholics, Old Catholics, etc. are not in any kind of communion with Rome.
You know this - obviously something along the way has been misunderstood. What did you mean to say?
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BrianH
Guest
Uh…no, they are not.
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DebChris
Guest
Estebob can speak for himself. I see where I may have misread something in the post that started this.
Earlier in the thread, a list was made of different expressions of faith that are in line with Rome.
There are, nevertheless, organized groups that defy Rome’s authority and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Heresies have been dealt with since the beginning of Christianity from Arianism to Jansenism.
Earlier in the thread, a list was made of different expressions of faith that are in line with Rome.
There are, nevertheless, organized groups that defy Rome’s authority and yet continue to call themselves Catholic. Heresies have been dealt with since the beginning of Christianity from Arianism to Jansenism.
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estesbob
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Wellllllllllllllllllllllllll I am not sure what defnitions we are uisng. my mom is a very Liberal catholic but she adheres to all the teachings-i am a very conservative catholic and likewise adhere to all the teachings. So i would supect we are talking about different things.
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drafdog
Guest
It seems that every time a “holiness movement” is initiated in a protestant denomination, the parent church or the movement itself decides to disassociate itself from the other. A major case in point is the Methodist church which was a holiness movement within the Anglican (Episcopal) church. Alternatively, there is the Oxford movement within Anglicanism which reunited (many of its members, certainly not all) with the Latin Rite Catholic Church. Another instance is the Southern Baptist’s ousting of anything that looks like Pentacostalism.
One of the major strengths of the Catholic Church has been the ability to accept and approve a vast array of spiritualities without feeling the need to separate or excommunicate anyone. Thus we have conservative Catholics, liberals, Cursillistas, charismatics and so forth. We also have a variety of religious orders including the Augustinians (Martin Luther was a member), Basilians, Benedictines, Cistercians, Jesuits, Franciscans (who were almost excommunicated) etc. The list is unbelievably long if you want to include all of the orders. I have listed only men’s communities and only the major ones that I know.
Unfortunately the protestants have not followed in the pattern of the parent church. Remember that a famous Irish author once wrote “Catholicism means here comes everyone.”
Matthew
One of the major strengths of the Catholic Church has been the ability to accept and approve a vast array of spiritualities without feeling the need to separate or excommunicate anyone. Thus we have conservative Catholics, liberals, Cursillistas, charismatics and so forth. We also have a variety of religious orders including the Augustinians (Martin Luther was a member), Basilians, Benedictines, Cistercians, Jesuits, Franciscans (who were almost excommunicated) etc. The list is unbelievably long if you want to include all of the orders. I have listed only men’s communities and only the major ones that I know.
Unfortunately the protestants have not followed in the pattern of the parent church. Remember that a famous Irish author once wrote “Catholicism means here comes everyone.”
Matthew
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BrianH
Guest
Your Mom is not a very Liberal Catholic, she is a very liberal Catholic
Old Catholics
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church
newadvent.org/cathen/11235b.htm
Liberal Catholics
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Catholic_Church
Brazilian Catholic Church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Catholic_Apostolic_Church
Polish Catholic Church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church
etc etc, there are hundreds
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jmcrae
Guest
Ah. No, we were talking about a religion that goes by the name “The Liberal Catholics.” This religion permits women “priests” and gay “marriage.” It is not in communion with Rome. They schismated from the Church in the 1970s.
There is also a religion called “The Old Catholics,” which was a group of Russians who schismated from the Church during the Commmunist revolution.
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jblake
Guest
estesbob;:
I understand why you think that they are in full communion with Rome.
When Protestant denominations split, they usually choose a name that is easily identified as being something other than the organization that they split from.
When Catholic denominations split, they usually choose a term that sounds like it is part of mainstream Catholicism.
Old Catholic: Late nineteenth century. The election of the Pope was done in violation of Canon Law, and hence there was/is no legitimate Pope. [Note: there are a couple of other groups with this name, that have a slightly different theology. ];
Traditional Catholic: Late 1970’s: Vatican Two promotes the heresies that was the cause of the excommunication of the Church of England. [Note: there are a couple of other groups with this name, that have a slightly different theology. ];
Liberal Catholic: Mid 1980’s: Liberation Theology taken to an illogical conclusion.
xan
jonathon
If I don’t post that list by 1 January, send me an email.
I understand why you think that they are in full communion with Rome.
When Protestant denominations split, they usually choose a name that is easily identified as being something other than the organization that they split from.
When Catholic denominations split, they usually choose a term that sounds like it is part of mainstream Catholicism.
- Old Catholic v old Catholic;
- Traditional Catholic v traditional Catholic;
- Liberal Catholic v liberal Catholic;
Old Catholic: Late nineteenth century. The election of the Pope was done in violation of Canon Law, and hence there was/is no legitimate Pope. [Note: there are a couple of other groups with this name, that have a slightly different theology. ];
Traditional Catholic: Late 1970’s: Vatican Two promotes the heresies that was the cause of the excommunication of the Church of England. [Note: there are a couple of other groups with this name, that have a slightly different theology. ];
Liberal Catholic: Mid 1980’s: Liberation Theology taken to an illogical conclusion.
xan
jonathon
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