Why so many Protestant denominations

[paidion]

My original question was meant to get beyond the “Us vs.Them”/“Catholicism vs. Protestantism” paradigm.

Everything that is non-Catholic is not automatically Protestant.

 

[johnnydigit]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."
-1 John 2:19

 

[Harsalter]

My original question was meant to get beyond the “Us vs.Them”/“Catholicism vs. Protestantism” paradigm.

Everything that is non-Catholic is not automatically Protestant.

Dinosaurs also roamed the earth at one time.

But actually, just like Protestantism, the Jewish faith is simply incomplete. They are missing something as simple as the MESSIAH.

 

[DebChris]

In looking through this thread, I’ve not really seen an answer to the following question. Where do Messianic Jews (Jews that believe Jesus/Yeshua is the Messiah) fit into this whole scheme?

Messianic Jews have been around since Messiah came to earth - long before the Protestant Reformers were even a thought. All of the apostles (Peter included) were originally Jews. Did they all stop being Jews simply because the Messiah came?

The Scriptures say that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it. Therefore, Judaism as practiced in the fulfillment of Yeshua is a valid expression of the Faith. So then, where do the Jews (who themselves believed in and taught their children of Messiah) belong in this whole paradigm?

I would need to scroll back through the thread to find where I posted about the original followers of Christ being called followers of The Way. The membership of The Way was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus did say that not one letter of the Law, nor part of a letter of the Law was to be abolished. He came “not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.”
Paul reminded Timothy to remain faithful to the traditions that he learned as a youth. This would indicate that the Jews who followed Christ were not to abandon what they had been taught. They continued to meet in the synagogues until their belief in the Risen Lord resulted in their being thrown out.
The Gentiles who accepted Christ were not required to follow Jewish Law. This was one of the main issues of the Council of Jerusalem. At this Council, Peter spoke of his dream that led him to Cornelius. Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit and received the same gifts as the Apostles at Pentecost. When Peter questioned the dream to eat “unclean food,” Christ replied “do not call unclean that which I have made clean.” This interpretation led to a lightening of the dietary and circumcision laws that some wanted the Gentile converts to follow. (Book of Acts)
We are called to a higher Law than that written on stone. We are called to follow the Law that God has written on each of our hearts. We are called to “love one another” as Christ as loved us. It is this Law of Love that Christ has fulfilled.
I often refer to the passage regarding Cornelius as to how we, as Catholics grafted to the tree of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, should view those who follow Christ and have not as yet become full participants in the life of the Catholic Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Neither were the Jews. Nor are Jews today who convert expected to continue to follow Jewish law. We are, all of us, under a New Covenant, now, and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile any more.

 

[DebChris]

Neither were the Jews. Nor are Jews today who convert expected to continue to follow Jewish law. We are, all of us, under a New Covenant, now, and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile any more.

I was trying to think of some of the OT verses that speak about the “circumcision of the heart” since God does not judge by outward appearance. When I read Timothy, I see Paul telling him to follow the teachings he received. This would correspond to our Apostolic Tradition versus regional traditions and styles of worship. I was thinking of some of these changes, for instance the relaxation of rules regarding fast and abstinence. With longer fasting periods before Communion (ie from Midnight and later a minimum of 3 hours) sometimes the focus was more on a growling stomach than on the Lord. I am currently reading Story of a Soul in which Therese of Liseux writes about asking permission to receive the Eucharist. I am sure glad that is not a current requirement.

 

[2ndGen]

I was trying to think of some of the OT verses that speak about the “circumcision of the heart” since God does not judge by outward appearance. When I read Timothy, I see Paul telling him to follow the teachings he received. This would correspond to our Apostolic Tradition versus regional traditions and styles of worship. I was thinking of some of these changes, for instance the relaxation of rules regarding fast and abstinence. With longer fasting periods before Communion (ie from Midnight and later a minimum of 3 hours) sometimes the focus was more on a growling stomach than on the Lord. I am currently reading Story of a Soul in which Therese of Liseux writes about asking permission to receive the Eucharist. I am sure glad that is not a current requirement.

NT

Romans 2:
25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

OT

Deuteronomy 30:6

“And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.”

 

[paidion]

The whole point in following Torah was to understand the holiness of G-d (His grace and mercy). It never was a means of salvation. For if we could have been redeemed through keeping Torah, we would have never needed Messiah’s sacrifice on the cross.

I appreciate your thoughtful/thought-provoking comments, DebChris. I agree that the Jews were the ones to whom the Law was given, and the gentiles were not under any obligation to keep Torah. What I do not see is anywhere in which Messiah stated that the holidays and lifestyle were to be completely abandoned. For example, Sukkot (the Feast of Tabernacles), and Pesach (the Passover) were to be observed as a lasting ordinance (Lev. 23) Again, these statutes were never meant to be a means of attaining righteousness; rather, they were a means of seeing the holiness and majesty of the Almighty.

How many times did the Messiah go to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover (John 6) , Sukkkot (John 7), or even Hannukah (see John 10)? (Those are just a few quick references, there are others recorded in the Gospels). And if our L-rd Himself celebrated the festivals, shouldn’t also we follow His example???

The summation of the Law was to love the L-rd your G-d with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength (Deut. 6) If we are no longer under obligation to follow the Law/Older Testament, should we disregard this ordinance as well?

 

[estesbob]

I would need to scroll back through the thread to find where I posted about the original followers of Christ being called followers of The Way. The membership of The Way was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. .

“Followers of the way” is a self published pseudo theology book by a guy by the name George Fandt who starts with the usual canard that Constantine founded the Catholic Church. The book ,for all its pretentisnous, is your usual new age pap.

 

[2ndGen]

“Followers of the way” is a self published pseudo theology book by a guy by the name George Fandt who starts with the usual canard that Constantine founded the Catholic Church. The book ,for all its pretentisnous, is your usual new age pap.

.

The Way is a legitimate consideration as what Christianity was first known as. I believe it was in The Didache or in The NT itself that I read where The Apostles were referred to as “the way”

As for the Jews being among Christians initially, that pretty much faded out less than 50 years after Jesus died. Of course, the majority of Jesus’ followers were Jews, but most of the time, Jesus used Gentiles to teach Jews what was expected of them (for example, the Roman Centurian, the tales of the Good Samaritan, etc…).

 

[estesbob]

.

The Way is a legitimate consideration as what Christianity was first known as. I believe it was in The Didache or in The NT itself that I read where The Apostles were referred to as “the way”

“Followers of the Way” ,however ,is indeed the book I mentioned.

 

[BCPoulsen]

All salvation is through the Church:

It is this perspective that keeps some from developing a personal relationship with their Saviour. I think that is why some people like COGHOBDOJ forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif end up leaving the Church before they are truly converted to the Lord Jesus Christ. It shows the depth of their conviction when they have the courage to come back to those who share a common background to testify that Jesus is the Messiah, our Redeemer. It is also instructive to note how they are greeted by those who profess to know. “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matt 7:20)

I do appreciate the conversation. Some good points have been made about the importance of the Church as we work out our salvation. 2ndGen referred to the allegory of the olive tree. Remember that those who are grafted in can also be pruned out. Let’s not be so focused on the branch that we forget from where the nourishment comes.

 

[COGHOBDOJ]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us."
-1 John 2:19

It goes on to say:
"22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."

This is the context of the chapter that your scripture comes from. So, your stance is that if one accepts Jesus as the Christ and the Son of God, our Lord, Savior and Redeemer, but does not worship in accordance to Catholic practices, that person has fallen into the lies of the antichrist?

 

[estesbob]

**It is this perspective that keeps some from developing a personal relationship with their Saviour.salvation. **2ndGen referred to the allegory of the olive tree. Remember that those who are grafted in can also be pruned out. Let’s not be so focused on the branch that we forget from where the nourishment comes.

I am not sure exactly what one means by having a “personal relationship with their Savior.” Does that mean he is more akin to our “buddy” than he our King? At any rate we must speak the truth at all times. We c an not water it down in order not to offend people. Pope Benedcit has recently annuciated this again-One is saved only through h the Church.

 

[2ndGen]

I am not sure exactly what one means by having a “personal relationship with their Savior.” Does that mean he is more akin to our “buddy” than he our King? At any rate we must speak the truth at all times. We c an not water it down in order not to offend people. Pope Benedcit has recently annuciated this again-One is saved only through h the Church.

Your source for this affirmation of The Pope please?

I never heard Pope Benedict undo the Catholic Teaching on salvation outside of The Church. If he was talking in the context of addressing a Catholic audience, then for Catholics, it’s true…salvation comes through (not from) The Catholic Church.

But, I’ll wait for your source so that I can see what was the context of that particular statement. I’m assumig that you are quoting him as saying “One is saved only through h the Church.”

 

[COGHOBDOJ]

I am not sure exactly what one means by having a “personal relationship with their Savior.” Does that mean he is more akin to our “buddy” than he our King?

This phrase has always creeped me out too, before I understood it and experienced it for myself. If you read through the Psalms and Proverbs and many other books of the bible and you can’t see how CRAZY in love with us Jesus is, then you won’t understand that term.

It is entirely possible to hold Him as King, and friend. Did you not know that the scripture tells us Jesus is a “________” of sinners?

Answer? “Friend”

Friend, loosely defined could be a buddy. But, if you’re in relationship and fellowship wiht Christ through a life of worship, bible study, prayer and meditation and many other spiritual disciplines, you know how possible it is for our Almighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords to also love us enough to be our ‘buddy.’

But, I believe you reject the idea because many people ARE finding true fellowship with Christ in a different manner than which you are accustomed to.

Then you’d have to concede a small portion of the ongoing debate.

 

[estesbob]

Your source for this affirmation of The Pope please?

I never heard Pope Benedict undo the Catholic Teaching on salvation outside of The Church. If he was talking in the context of addressing a Catholic audience, then for Catholics, it’s true…salvation comes through (not from) The Catholic Church.

But, I’ll wait for your source so that I can see what was the context of that particular statement. I’m assumig that you are quoting him as saying “One is saved only through h the Church.”

There is indeed one universal church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice

4th Lateran Council ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN4.HTM#1

The links below show that Bendict issued a Document that affirmed that this had not changed.

I also previoulsy gave you a link to the Cathecism that said clearly there is NO slavation outside the Church.

I have also added an article from thre Boston Globe showing the reaction to his affirmation of this basic Catholic Doctrine.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=7737

boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2007/07/11/pope_reasserts_salvation_comes_from_one_church/

 

[estesbob]

This phrase has always creeped me out too, before I understood it and experienced it for myself. If you read through the Psalms and Proverbs and many other books of the bible and you can’t see how CRAZY in love with us Jesus is, then you won’t understand that term.

It is entirely possible to hold Him as King, and friend. Did you not know that the scripture tells us Jesus is a “________” of sinners?

Answer? “Friend”

Friend, loosely defined could be a buddy. But, if you’re in relationship and fellowship wiht Christ through a life of worship, bible study, prayer and meditation and many other spiritual disciplines, you know how possible it is for our Almighty King of Kings and Lord of Lords to also love us enough to be our ‘buddy.’

But, I believe you reject the idea because many people ARE finding true fellowship with Christ in a different manner than which you are accustomed to.

Then you’d have to concede a small portion of the ongoing debate.

And you base all the above on what?

 

[COGHOBDOJ]

And you base all the above on what?

Matthew 11: 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

John 15:13-14 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. **You are My friends **if you do what I command you.”

 

[estesbob]

Matthew 11: 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

John 15:13-14 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. **You are My friends **if you do what I command you.”

So your entire theology is based on your personal interpretation of 3 verses of Scripture??? What if you interpreation is wrong?