Why so many Protestant denominations

[COGHOBDOJ]

**Platitude -
1 : the quality or state of being dull or insipid
2 : a banal, trite, or stale remark **

Hey! I think you just insulted me! You seem to hold yourself in high regard. Reminds me of a story:

*Luke 18:10-14
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. *

 

[estesbob]

That’s cause there’s no problem with the thousands and thousands of denominations. Remember, you, not me, has a problem with that. So, I don’t have to address those points.

I would like to think that God loves us so much that He would give us a simple message, so that little ole’, simple me can understand His message just as easy as sophisticated, educated, highbrowed and refined folk like you.

You don’t address these points because you can’t. You cannot explain why everybody before the “reformers” was dead wrong and why after the “reformers” we have tens of thousands of different versions of the truth . Instead of addressing these issues you put your fingers in your ears and chant over and over again “Jesus loves me yes I know cause , the Bible tells you so” all the while claiming that Scripture is so simple that you don’t need any guidance. As I said before you went from a faith where the church was declared infallible to a faith where you have declared yourself infallible.

 

[Rightlydivide]

You don’t address these points because you can’t. You cannot explain why everybody before the “reformers” was dead wrong and why after the “reformers” we have tens of thousands of different versions of the truth . Instead of addressing these issues you put your fingers in your ears and chant over and over again “Jesus loves me yes I know cause , the Bible tells you so” all the while claiming that Scripture is so simple that you don’t need any guidance. As I said before you went from a faith where the church was declared infallible to a faith where you have declared yourself infallible.

Not everyone before the reformers believed as you do. No way. But the fact of the matter is that God gave the whole world in HIS time and now that the world has it, people see the truth.
I applaud this person’s faith.

 

[estesbob]

Not everyone before the reformers believed as you do. No way. But the fact of the matter is that God gave the whole world in HIS time and now that the world has it, people see the truth.
I applaud this person’s faith.

Can you give you some examples? And are you claiming that God waited 1500 years reveal the truth? The truth of the matter is that the multitude of different doctrines and beliefs that we see in Protestants are unsustainable for anyone who even has a cursory knowledge of Church history

 

[Rightlydivide]

I am going to ask someone on this forum permission to use their website. I will get back to you.

 

[SyCarl]

Can you give you some examples? And are you claiming that God waited 1500 years reveal the truth? The truth of the matter is that the multitude of different doctrines and beliefs that we see in Protestants are unsustainable for anyone who even has a cursory knowledge of Church history

There are examples like the Waldenes, Lollards and the Hussites.

But by the same token, are we to say that God waited more than 1900 years to declare the truth of The Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, and the Annunciation? While some may have believed these doctrines beforehand, they were not definitively defined as truth until 1854, 1870 and 1950 respectively.

 

[estesbob]

There are examples like the Waldenes, Lollards and the Hussites.

But by the same token, are we to say that God waited more than 1900 years to declare the truth of The Immaculate Conception, Papal Infallibility, and the Annunciation? While some may have believed these doctrines beforehand, they were not definitively defined as truth until 1854, 1870 and 1950 respectively.

So over the course of 1,500 years all you can come up with is three very small sects-none who had beleifs anywhere close to the ones made up by the 'reformers"?

The Immacualte conception has been a doctrine since the early Church. All the decrees you mention did was affirm what had been believed all along. ie:

And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" .

*Protoevangelium of James *4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary”
(*Discourses Against the Arians *2:70 [A.D. 360]).

And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled

" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son"

(*Letters *63:111 [A.D. 388]).

 

[SyCarl]

So over the course of 1,500 years all you can come up with is three very small sects-none who had beleifs anywhere close to the ones made up by the 'reformers"?

These were off the top of my head. It is amazing that the Waldenes did not hold Protestant views in that they now call themselves Protestant.

Wycliffe and his followers held many views that the refromers held as did the Hussites who were derived from Wycliffe.

The Immacualte conception has been a doctrine since the early Church. All the decrees you mention did was affirm what had been believed all along. ie:

And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" .

*Protoevangelium of James *4, 7 [A.D. 120]).

“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary”
(*Discourses Against the Arians *2:70 [A.D. 360]).

And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled

" (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).

"Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son"

(*Letters *63:111 [A.D. 388]).

I did admit that some believed the Immaculate Conception prior to 1854, however these things were not defined as necessary truths until the dates I gave. Before then even Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception in the way that Pius IX infallibly defined it. The quotes you give, however deal with perpetual virginity, not sinlessness.

 

[estesbob]

These were off the top of my head. It is amazing that the Waldenes did not hold Protestant views in that they now call themselves Protestant.

Wycliffe and his followers held many views that the refromers held as did the Hussites who were derived from Wycliffe.

I did admit that some believed the Immaculate Conception prior to 1854, however these things were not defined as necessary truths until the dates I gave. Before then even Thomas Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception in the way that Pius IX infallibly defined it. The quotes you give, however deal with perpetual virginity, not sinlessness.

Aquinas disagreeing with the Immacualte conception bears no more weight than you disbelieving the Immacualte conception.

Thus far you have show a few thousand people who disagreed with the Church. You’ll have to do a lot better than that to prove Christianity was in deep error before the “reformers” came along.

 

[SyCarl]

Aquinas disagreeing with the Immacualte conception bears no more weight than you disbelieving the Immacualte conception.

Thus far you have show a few thousand people who disagreed with the Church. You’ll have to do a lot better than that to prove Christianity was in deep error before the “reformers” came along.

Can you justify say a few thousand? For example Huss and his followers were quite prominent in Bohemia. However, the fact that such groups arose, with similar views shows that not all agreed with the church. This does not mean that the church was not Christian but only that there was error. Their effect was lmited during there time as the printing press had not been invented so their writings were not spread widely. Given part of the reaction to groups regarded as heretics before the printing press was to suppress their teachings by destroying their writing, it is hard to identify exactly what some groups thought. The only record we have of some are what the victors tell us about them.

 

[jmcrae]

For Salvation? That’s a good one. The thief on the cross next to Jesus only confessed his faith in Christ and Jesus said he’ll be in the Kingdom of Heaven. He didn’t get baptized.

He was also under the Old Covenant.

What’s the first thing that happened, the moment the New Covenant came into effect on Pentecost Sunday? (Psst: 3,000 people got baptized.)

I believe we’re commanded to be baptized.

Yes, we are.

Ever do hospital visitations and share the gospel with a patient on his/her deathbed, lead one on a death bed to Christ? Had time for a baptism? Had time for an RCIA class?

You can do an emergency baptism - even unbelievers are allowed to perform baptisms in emergency situations, if the person (or his guardian, if the person is unable to respond) has given consent.

Pour water over the person’s head three times, saying, “[Name], I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” It takes about 30 seconds.

 

[jmcrae]

These were off the top of my head. It is amazing that the Waldenes did not hold Protestant views in that they now call themselves Protestant.

Do they believe anything even remotely like what you believe?

I am not sure why they call themselves Protestant, other than that maybe they are believing some kind of propaganda about them being the “proto-Protestants.” But they don’t believe in anything like what most Protestants believe. (I can’t find their web site any more, or else I would link you to it. They had two congregations the last time I looked - perhaps even these have ceased to exist, now.)

 

[DebChris]

Western Churches of the Reformation;
Luthern
Reformed–Presbyterian and Congregationalist, Baptist, United Church of Christ, Unitarian
The Church of England (Anglican)–United Methodist, African Methodist, Pentecostal, Holiness, Episcopal, Quaker
Anabaptist–Amish, Mennonite, Brethern

Ubi Petrus, ibi Ecclesia, ibi Deus: Where Peter is, there is the Church, there is God.

Justita civilas, the false Protestant ethic of patriotism, loyalty to friends, and industriousness dilutes Christian love.
“He has no need of our works but only of our love” (St. Therese of Lisieux). “For it is love that I desire, not sacrifice and knowledge of God rather than holocaust” (Hosea 6:6).
How can we develop knowledge of God unless we spend time listening to His Word and allowing it to transform our lives? Time and again God calls His people to keep holy the Sabbath, to set aside our own agenda and spend time with our Creator.

“The theological dialogues by which many Christian World Communions have been engaged are characterized by a committment to move beyond the things that divide towards the unity in Christ which we seek. However daunting the journey, we must not lose sight of the final goal: full visible communion in Christ and in the church” (Pope Benedict XVI).

 

[DebChris]

Can you justify say a few thousand? For example Huss and his followers were quite prominent in Bohemia. However, the fact that such groups arose, with similar views shows that not all agreed with the church. This does not mean that the church was not Christian but only that there was error. Their effect was lmited during there time as the printing press had not been invented so their writings were not spread widely. Given part of the reaction to groups regarded as heretics before the printing press was to suppress their teachings by destroying their writing, it is hard to identify exactly what some groups thought. The only record we have of some are what the victors tell us about them.

With the internet and books commonplace, it is easy to forget that before the invention of the printing press, books were a luxury. Information did not spread quickly and only the very wealthy had the luxury of learning how to read.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

COGHOBDOJ;3171595:

And the Holy Spirit incribes different things each personas hearts -some in direct contradiction to what he has incribed on other hearts. Correct?

To come up with such a simplistic view of faith one must ignore the thousands & thousnads of different denominations and must ignore almost the entire history of Chrisitianity. You never adress these points-you just come back with empty platitudes and tell us how simple it all his.

estesbob,

Please don’t confuse COGHOBDOJ’s words with mine!

He was attempting to answer me.

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

RBT SOUTHWELL,

now a question to you is why do so many protestant ministers convert to Catholism?

c659smith:

I am VERY Catholic. I have been questioning the assertions of COG…(you type the rest!).

For some reason, you and estesbob are mistaking me for him. Read the thread, please.

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Rbt Southwell;3170739:

God = Jesus = The Word = The Holy Spirit.

All those who recieve God’s Plan of Salvation through the New Covenant of Faith in Christ’s death and resurrection receive The Holy Spirit in their “hearts.” That’s how.

As for your last paragraph: I don’t know. It’s inscribed on my heart and I worship and serve at a local church. So, I don’t know.

COG:

What you assert is NOT in the Bible. If it is not biblical then it is not Christian, right? [or so the modern Protestant/Evangelical does claim]

Just “knowing” something doesn’t cut it. It isn’t a magic act. I know the Anaheim Angels are the BEST baseball team in the world, even though they have only won ONE WS in their history, hey, forget the facts, I “just know it in my heart.”

Robert

 

[estesbob]

c659smith:

I am VERY Catholic. I have been questioning the assertions of COG…(you type the rest!).

For some reason, you and estesbob are mistaking me for him. Read the thread, please.

Robert

Mea culpa!

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Ten Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers and season tickets for the Angels.

Robert

 

[estesbob]

Ten Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers and season tickets for the Angels.

Robert

I used to have season tickets to the Houston Astros. That was penance enough!