Why so many responses of the people in novus ordo?

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I used the substance/accident formulation hesitantly, because I knew it might be read incorrectly. I was getting at the changes implied in Sacrosanctum Concillium :

the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it.

Ah! I agree we can talk about there being essential components and accidental components of the Mass (in all its forms/uses in the Roman Rite), and we could probably take a step back and even say there are essential and accidental components of the “Mass” in all the rites of the Church, but then we could also take a step forward and speak of essential and accidental components of the various forms/uses of the Roman Rite itself, which is what I misunderstood you to be speaking about. The triplicate Kyrie, the longer Confiteor, the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Last Gospel, etc. are all essential components of the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite in as much as we can actually distinguish the Ordinary Form from the Extraordinary Form by the former’s lack of such essential elements!

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

Speaking of that why is the Confiteor changed? I noticed that as well. I’m used to the one that includes “confess to Mary the blessed Virgini, Saint John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul” . When did it get shortened? Is the older form still valid?

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

Wait, Council of Trent is infallible but Second Vatican Council is not?

Now I’m confused.

 

[Augustinian]

Never really understood why it was called the Secret when its printed right in our hand missals haha

Printed handmissals for the Faithful in the nave are an innovation of the 19th Century, and were used by far less than half the people by the end of the period when the Latin Mass was the only Mass.

 

[Aquinas11]

No, I said the language/form/etc of mass in Trent was taught in infallible doctrine whereas in Vatican II the language/form/etc of NO mass was not taught in infallible doctrine. I wasn’t saying the whole Council was infallible or not. Just the specific teachings on rite/form/etc of mass.

But again, I see no conflict between Vatican II and Trent, since Vatican II language on NO mass says that this is an optional (not mandatory) form of mass, hence it didn’t violate Trent requiring TLM (Before Vat II, TLM is offered and after Vat II, TLM is offered). Now if Vatican II had said that NO is the only form of mass going forward, etc, that would have violated Trent.

 

[Dovekin]

Some posts on here confuse me in that regard about the state of the society.

There are many opinions on “the state of the society.” I doubt that anyone fully understands it!

With regard to sacraments, most of them are probably valid but illicit. Baptism is almost certainly valid, since anyone can administer it, and someone in SSPX would be scrupulous in administering it. Confirmation depends on the minister, but again, SSPX probably had a validly ordained bishop confirm you. You may still have to do something about having it recorded properly, but that is about paperwork, not sacramentality. Their Eucharists are probably valid as well, and may not even be illicit since Summorum Pontificam.

Pope Francis extended the right to hear confessions to priests of the SSPX two years ago. Anything since then would be licit as well as valid, but earlier were probably valid as well.

As long as you have not been married or ordained, the sacraments you have experienced were valid. Trust in them, that they have established you in a relationship with Christ that is a blessing for you and for the Church. Talk to a pastor for further assurance and acceptance.

 

[stephenSTOSS1]

Every Mass, whether in Latin, Greek, pig Latin; whether said by a priest who is dead in sin or not; whether it is full with a congregation the likes of Mother Theresa or of Martin Luther; whether reverent or irreverent, is still a perfect offering. Why? Because it is the High Priest, Jesus Christ, who is actually offering the sacrifice / offering of the Mass to the Father. The Novus Ordo and Tridentine Mass are equal in the perfection of the sacrificial offering.

What you, or any other participant, gets is separate from the perfect offering. What you get are the graces commensurate with the purity and faith in your heart. The degree of that perfection is not equal. The only real difference that exists within each Mass, regardless of form, is the size of the cup that each congregant brings to the Mass. Because that is what will runneth over.

 

[Aquinas11]

The Novus Ordo and Tridentine Mass are equal in the perfection of the sacrificial offering.

Not true. The former can’t be the only mass offered, whereas the latter can. So they’re not technically “equal”, per infallible doctrine.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Speaking of that why is the confetior changed? I noticed that as well. I’m used to the one that includes “confess to Mary the blessed virgin, Saint John the Baptist, Saints Peter and Paul” . When did it get shortened?

The Ordinary Form has excised what many of the council fathers felt were unnecessary repetition/redundancy. This is why the Confiteor has been shortened to list only the Blessed Virgin Mary by name and St. Michael the Archangel, St. John the Baptist, and the Blessed Apostles SS. Peter & Paul implicitly mentioned with “and all the angels and saints”. Furthermore there is no longer a separate Confiteor for the priest and a second one for the servers/faithful. Priests and faithful alike share in one Confiteor in the Ordinary Form and instead of saying “and you father” after “and all the angels and saints” we say “and you my brothers and sisters.” The Kyrie was reduced from a triplicate form to a duplicate form. The “Domine non sum dignus…” was reduced from triplicate to singlet (“Lord I am not worthy…”). Some things were removed completely like the Judica Me during the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (Psalm 42), the blessings of the incense before use (if it’s used), and the blessing of the water before it’s added to the chalice, the Last Gospel, among others. I’m sure I’m missing a couple more, but you get the idea.

Is the older form still valid?

It is valid only in the Extraordinary Form! There is to be no “mixing” of the two forms and so we cannot use the longer Confiteor in the Ordinary Form nor can we use the shorter one in the Extraordinary Form.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Pope Francis extended the right to hear confessions to priests of the SSPX two years ago. Anything since then would be licit as well as valid, but earlier were probably valid as well.

I don’t think the bolded part is correct. There is a juridical component to confession that is directly involved in its validity. If a bishop (and the priests under him) lack faculties then the confessions are invalid not just illicit, and I’m pretty certain that was the case with the SSPX prior to Pope Francis extending faculties for them to hear confessions and marry people.

 

[goout]

I just recently began going to the novus ordo. I was raised only going to the traditional form. Since college it’s just easier to go to the new mass but I am kind of confused why the people are required to say so much, I was always taught only the priest was responsible for the mass and the consecration. And why does the priest face us, it seems he should be facing God in the tabernacle no? It feels like a dialogue more so than a speaking to Christ in the tabernacle. Some other things bother me like ordinary people giving the eucharist. I am not like trying to cause a argument by any means it just a lot of things I was always taught by the priests of the society of saint Pius x is so null in void at the new mass. I feel so insecure with these college students who know everything to a tee and I must seem like I don’t know anything. It sometimes makes me not even want to go to mass because it feels so foreign.

Welcome to the Christian life. Christian maturity always entails pressing on when things are not to your personal liking (constant challenge for me personally).

That seems like a pat answer but it’s the path. Things may change, things may not change. If that disturbs your faith in Christ, reconsider who you are clinging to. Things were not to his taste, but he persisted in faith. And that includes loving us in difficult circumstances.
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[Theprodigalson84j]

Yah. I see.
I think the biggest things I realized were like you said, the Psalm 42 prayers at the foot of the altar, the Last Gospel, and the Leonine Prayers.
I just realized when someone brought up the confiteor that I did realize it seemed shorter.

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

Speaking of the Leonine Prayers, are they still required in the EF? I mean I Iike them and think it’s a beautiful way to end mass but I assume they aren’t for the consecration of Russia anymore if they are still for that? And before 1929 they were for a solution to the papal state question.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

the Leonine Prayers.

The Leonine Prayers never were part of the Mass technically. They were included after Low Mass only. They’re still an option in the Ordinary Form and in fact many priests/bishops have begun to bring them back (or at least the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel) in light of the current sex abuse scandal.

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

That’s a great point. Yes they are not said in high masses.
Thank you for all of your knowledge and (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

They’re still said after Low Mass but not after a Missa Cantata or Missa Solemnis. I’m not aware of any particular intention we’re supposed to pray them for, but they are said.

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

Also, you made the point that the Leonine Prayers aren’t technically part of the Mass.
With that said, is the Last Gospel? I only ask because that actually happens after the Ite Missa and the final blessing.
And on the opposite side is the Psalm 42 Judica Me technically part of the Mass? It happens before the Introit. Very interesting things I never really thought of.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Both the Last Gospel and the Judica Me are part of the (Extraordinary Form) Mass, per the 1962 Editio Typica of Missale Romanum. That they occur after the Ite Missa Est and before the Introit, respectively, just shows that they likely began as private devotions that eventually were incorporated into the Mass ordinary.

 

[Theprodigalson84j]

Yah interesting. Though now that I think of it the Confiteor is said before the Introit as well following the Judica Me.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

It is. The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar include the Sign of the Cross, the Judica Me and its antiphon (Introibo ad altare Dei…), then concludes with the Confiteor.