Why so much fear about Christianity?

[Lucy107]

Christianity did not grow out of any human desire. It was revealed to us.

Many people believe Christianity (like all other religions) is merely man-made.

While it answers the questions of our origin, the meaning of our existence and our ultimate destiny, it also requires self denial and submission. That is a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature.

I asked this earlier:

Why would they “chafe” at those demands if they don’t believe they are relevant?

If a stranger on the street gives you a bank account number and tells you that you must pay $10,000 to that account, do you chafe at that demand?

and nobody replied.

To outsiders to Christianity, this is what Christian demands are like - just like a stranger demanding a lot of money.

When you refuse to give lots of money to strangers, do you really believe that this refusal of yours is “due to your fallen human nature”?

requires self denial and submission. That is a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature

Every bully at school or at work “requires self denial and submission” from others.

So when people don’t submit to a bully, they should feel bad about it?

Because self denial and submission to a bully is “a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature”?

Not just a few non-Christians experience Christians as simply bullies, essentially no different from any other bully.
Except that the school bully threatens kids to beat them up, and Christians threaten people with infinite punishment.

 

[Lucy107]

Again, if there are bad Christians as well as good Christians, what difference is that to those within non-Christianity?

Some probably don’t think about it much, other than when specifically asked about it.

But like I pointed out several times: Presuming to be able to talk on behalf of God carries with it great responsibility. Everyone is in some way concerned with the topic “God.” As such, people reasonably expect that those who are claiming to speak on God’s behalf should live up to the highest standard.

CCC 2125 /…/ “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”

 

[Kaninchen]

A fear shared by many Christians.

Oh, I’m sure you’re right about that but quite a bit of that is the result of experience/‘hereditary’ experience, isn’t it?

I expect that for a lot of non-Christians (and Christians who are members of minority churches), the “it wasn’t Christians/members of (whatever) Church who were naughty, it was a few/some/rather a lot of individual Christians/members of (whatever) Church who were naughty” defence raises more smiles than anything else.

 

[Kaninchen]

Not just a few non-Christians experience Christians as simply bullies, essentially no different from any other bully.
Except that the school bully threatens kids to beat them up, and Christians threaten people with infinite punishment.

Sometimes it’s been both, of course.

 

[Randy_Carson]

One more thing:

It’s not about judging all Christians and all of Christianity by “the few bad apples.”

It’s about
How bad can things get with Christians?
What do I need to prepare for when dealing with Christians?

And if the baseline is that preparation for interacting with Christians involves the same kind of skills and resources as for dealing with street thugs – yeah, many people are not going to be all to eager about doing so.

Christians = Street thugs?

That’s not really fair to the street thugs, is it? I mean, at least they are honest about being thugs, and you always know where you stand with them…even if you’re face down in the gutter.

Christians on the other hand, will lie to your face and pretend to be all goody-goody, but they will knife you in the back when you turn around.

So, when it comes to honesty and integrity, ya gotta go with the street thugs every time.

 

[clem456]

Many people believe Christianity (like all other religions) is merely man-made.

I asked this earlier:

and nobody replied.

To outsiders to Christianity, this is what Christian demands are like - just like a stranger demanding a lot of money.

When you refuse to give lots of money to strangers, do you really believe that this refusal of yours is “due to your fallen human nature”?

Every bully at school or at work “requires self denial and submission” from others.

So when people don’t submit to a bully, they should feel bad about it?

Because self denial and submission to a bully is “a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature”?

Not just a few non-Christians experience Christians as simply bullies, essentially no different from any other bully.
Except that the school bully threatens kids to beat them up, and Christians threaten people with infinite punishment.

Your idea of what bullying is seems to be a little distorted.

Bullying is an overtly atheist dictator killing 10’s of millions of human beings for the sake of a godless utopia. (failed)

Bullying is a pagan nature-worshipping dictator killing 10’s of millions of people out of sheer gluttonous passion. (failed)

Your outrage doesn’t quite meet the threshold of credibility. Christians have perpetrated our share of evil, but some honest perspective is in order. Overly aggressive apologism is hardly bullying.

 

[Lucy107]

Christians = Street thugs?
/…/
So, when it comes to honesty and integrity, ya gotta go with the street thugs every time.

Do read again:

It’s not about judging all Christians and all of Christianity by “the few bad apples.”

It’s about
How bad can things get with Christians?
What do I need to prepare for when dealing with Christians?

And if the baseline is that preparation for interacting with Christians involves the same kind of skills and resources as for dealing with street thugs – yeah, many people are not going to be all to eager about doing so.

It’s simple Worst Case Scenario (WCS) reasoning.
What is the worst thing that could happen to a person when dealing with Christians? The Christians could kill him. They have killed people before, so there is a precedent.

Is it likely that a Christian will kill a person? The probability doesn’t seem high, but it is not zero either.

So, by the WCS, one has to be prepared even for being killed by Christians.

The WCS for Christians is pretty much the same as for all other people.

The better even the WCS seems, the happier people will be. If the worst that could happen to a person when dealing with a Christian is that the Christian would slap the person in the face or steal no more than $10 from them, that would be nice.

 

[Lucy107]

Your idea of what bullying is seems to be a little distorted.

Bullying is an overtly atheist dictator killing 10’s of millions of human beings for the sake of a godless utopia. (failed)

Bullying is a pagan nature-worshipping dictator killing 10’s of millions of people out of sheer gluttonous passion. (failed)

Your outrage doesn’t quite meet the threshold of credibility. Christians have perpetrated our share of evil, but some honest perspective is in order. Overly aggressive apologism is hardly bullying.

Read again:

Not just a few non-Christians experience Christians as simply bullies, essentially no different from any other bully.
Except that the school bully threatens kids to beat them up, and Christians threaten people with infinite punishment.

Overly aggressive apologism is hardly bullying.

Some people experience it as such.
Do you not care about how people experience being proselytized by Christians?

Even some Christians care about it. That’s why there are books like:

Healing Spiritual Abuse and Religious Addiction

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church

and why there are websites like this:

spiritualabuse.com/?page_id=2

nacr.org/

christianrecovery.com/spabuse/mybb/forumdisplay.php?fid=5

Your idea of what bullying is seems to be a little distorted.

No, yours is. You underplay spiritual bullying.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s simple Worst Case Scenario (WCS) reasoning.
What is the worst thing that could happen to a person when dealing with Christians? The Christians could kill him. They have killed people before, so there is a precedent.

It’s simple reasoning, alright.

Is it likely that a Christian will kill a person? The probability doesn’t seem high, but it is not zero either.

So, by the WCS, one has to be prepared even for being killed by Christians.

Using that logic, you should never leave your house because the probability of getting hit by a car, or having a Cessna Piper Cub fall out of the sky or being killed by a Youth Group from the local Baptist Church is NOT zero.

The WCS for Christians is pretty much the same as for all other people.

The better even the WCS seems, the happier people will be. If the worst that could happen to a person when dealing with a Christian is that the Christian would slap the person in the face or steal no more than $10 from them, that would be nice.

But at least the Christian would tithe on the $10, so in the end, it’s for a good cause.

 

[Lucy107]

IUsing that logic, you should never leave your house because the probability of getting hit by a car, or having a Cessna Piper Cub fall out of the sky or being killed by a Youth Group from the local Baptist Church is NOT zero.

That’s your conclusion, which you’ve reached by adding a few steps that I did not take.

I just find it strange that visiting a Christian church one should better be equipped with the psychological equivalent of being a Jason Bourne (and maybe being physically as skilled wouldn’t hurt either).

But at least the Christian would tithe on the $10, so in the end, it’s for a good cause.

Pffft.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I just find it strange that visiting a Christian church one should better be equipped with the psychological equivalent of being a Jason Bourne (and maybe being physically as skilled wouldn’t hurt either).

Would that be because Christians and Jason Bourne both issue ultimatums?

Or because Bourne and the Pope both have supremacy?

 

[Lucy107]

Would that be because Christians and Jason Bourne both issue ultimatums?
Or because Bourne and the Pope both have supremacy?

Well, at least you know the titles of the books/films.

Never hope for empathy from a Christian.

 

[Lucy107]

The tenets of the faith are to love God and love your neighbor. One the surface their is nothing there to hate, but we all see Christianity is coming under further scrutiny. Anger is on the opposite side of the coin of fear. So what are the reasons you hear that people have a negative view of the faith?

Another reason: Because many Christians simply don’t listen when talking to people, don’t empathize; they just judge and condemn.

 

[Forkfoot]

The duplicity of so many Christians - they say one thing, and do the opposite.
Such duplicity does not inspire trust for Christianity in non-Christians.

This. If the majority of Christians actually followed Christ in more than just lip service, there’d be a much higher opinion of Christianity.

 

[MaryT777]

Lucy,
Have you had any positive interactions with Christians at all?

Mary.

 

[Lucy107]

Have you had any positive interactions with Christians at all?

Maybe what I - and many non-Christians - think of as “negative experiences with Christians”,
were actually “accurate experiences with Christians” – in the sense that those Christians have behaved exactly the way Chrisitans are supposed to behave.

Christians tend to have an air of religious supremacism, a religious triumphalism, a religious imperialism, down to “It’s not that we Christians hit people too hard, it’s that people’s bones are too soft.”

Sometimes, this is blatant, other times subtle.

Maybe this is what it means to be Christian. It would be foolish to take issue with people who simply behave the way they think is right.

If Christians believe that whatever a Christian says is as good as if God would say it – if Christians believe that they can speak on God’s behalf and that non-Christians are supposed to trust Christians as much as they would trust God –

then who are non-Christians to take issue with that …

we can only cry to God … perhaps …

 

[SteveVH]

Many people believe Christianity (like all other religions) is merely man-made.

There are people who believe we didn’t land on the moon as well. So what?

To outsiders to Christianity, this is what Christian demands are like - just like a stranger demanding a lot of money.

No, not at all. Who is forcing anyone to be Christian? It is much more like saying if you want to join the army you’re going to have to wear camo and take orders, even if you don’t like it. No one is saying you have to join the army and no is saying you have to be Christian.

When you refuse to give lots of money to strangers, do you really believe that this refusal of yours is “due to your fallen human nature”?

This doesn’t even make sense.

Every bully at school or at work “requires self denial and submission” from others.

So when people don’t submit to a bully, they should feel bad about it?

Because self denial and submission to a bully is “a difficult demand and goes against our fallen human nature”?

Are you really trying to equate Christianity with a bully? A bully imposes his will by threat of violence to another with the victim having no choice in the matter. How does this even remotely relate to one choosing to submit their lives to another (or not)?

Not just a few non-Christians experience Christians as simply bullies, essentially no different from any other bully.
Except that the school bully threatens kids to beat them up, and Christians threaten people with infinite punishment.

Christianity does not threaten people with infinite punishment. Instead it unlocks the door to your prison so that you may escape punishment. Once again, you can choose to believe it or not and if you are comfortable in your cell then you have every right to remain there.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Contarini]

Maybe what I - and many non-Christians - think of as “negative experiences with Christians”,
were actually “accurate experiences with Christians” – in the sense that those Christians have behaved exactly the way Chrisitans are supposed to behave.

Christians tend to have an air of religious supremacism, a religious triumphalism, a religious imperialism, down to “It’s not that we Christians hit people too hard, it’s that people’s bones are too soft.”

Sometimes, this is blatant, other times subtle.

Maybe this is what it means to be Christian. It would be foolish to take issue with people who simply behave the way they think is right.

If Christians believe that whatever a Christian says is as good as if God would say it – if Christians believe that they can speak on God’s behalf and that non-Christians are supposed to trust Christians as much as they would trust God –

then who are non-Christians to take issue with that …

we can only cry to God … perhaps …

Well, that isn’t an attitude that follows from orthodox Christianity as I understand it at all.

A basic teaching of historic Christianity is that we are all sinners, and that we all understand God imperfectly both because of our sin and (even more fundamentally) because God surpasses our capacity to understand.

But we Christians are very good at finding theological excuses for evading these truths. The set of excuses I’m most familiar with in the U.S. derives indirectly from Calvinism, and consists of comforting doctrines about individual salvation which give evangelicals an excuse for cutting themselves slack while being very hard on the sins of “unbelievers.” Catholics have a different set, deriving from ecclesiology–they themselves are sinners, but the Church is perfect, and they are just upholding Church teaching, they say, when they look down on others. I think this is the set of excuses you are most familiar with.

Do, please, cry out to God. No doubt he will hear you and pour out his vengeance on us. But the vengeance of God is better than to go on longer in our sins.

Edwin

 

[clem456]

Maybe what I - and many non-Christians - think of as “negative experiences with Christians”,
were actually “accurate experiences with Christians” – in the sense that those Christians have behaved exactly the way Chrisitans are supposed to behave.

Christians tend to have an air of religious supremacism, a religious triumphalism, a religious imperialism, down to “It’s not that we Christians hit people too hard, it’s that people’s bones are too soft.”

Sometimes, this is blatant, other times subtle.

Maybe this is what it means to be Christian. It would be foolish to take issue with people who simply behave the way they think is right.

If Christians believe that whatever a Christian says is as good as if God would say it – if Christians believe that they can speak on God’s behalf and that non-Christians are supposed to trust Christians as much as they would trust God –

then who are non-Christians to take issue with that …

we can only cry to God … perhaps …

It seems all this is bad for your soul and I have to wonder why you engage in it. Follow your conscience. If it doesn’t lead you to Christianity then fine.
Wallowing is not going to help.

 

[Lucy107]

It seems all this is bad for your soul

No.

and I have to wonder why you engage in it.

I’m growing a pair.

So there!