Why some Christians feel more threatened by homosexuality than other, more violent, sins

[kbwall]

It is because nobody is trying to claim that raping and murdering are ok. At least nobody sane enough to bother worrying about.

The thing that so many non-religious and pro-gay people do not understand is that by praising homosexuality as perfectly ok, you are attacking the church. It is no longer your own personal lives when you are attacking our Church. At best, they’re saying the church is worthless. At worst, they call the church evil.

Acceptance of homosexuality is truly running rampant to the point where even the perspective “hate the sin, love the sinner” is seen as being intolerant. It is getting to the point where people are afraid of calling out homosexuality for the sin it is, people are starting to fear being seen as righteous, and instead cower out of some stupid fear of being seen on par with racists in about 30 years. Society cares more about how others see them than how God sees them.

They call us judgemental, and cite how Jesus told us never to judge. They cite that Jesus hung out with drunkards and tax collectors, as a pathetic attempt to justify their sinful lifestyle. They claim that we take verses out of context to condemn them. Well, for people who seem to be so against taking verses out of context, they sure do the same thing. For one thing, while it is true that Jesus hung out with drunkards, tax collectors, and other sinners, He did not partake in their sinful lifestyle as these people seem to love to imply. In fact, He told them to go and sin no more. It is absolutely called to not judge others, but these people want to go too far in the other direction and have us be blind fools to sin. Also, if they want their Bible verses in context, they should be reminded that the chapter of Leviticus in which homosexuality is called out upon is nestled within a bunch of other sexual sins that nobody would argue, like bestiality. But of course, bestiality doesn’t make us sound silly, so they cherry pick things like eating pork and shellfish.

Homosexuals are not harmless to their kids. It’s true, there has been no real trauma seen by psychologists, but that is only because homosexuality is not listed as a disorder, and it should be. They claim psychologists proved it wasn’t a disorder, when they didn’t prove anything at all, but simply took it off the list because it wasn’t politically correct. Kids raised by homosexuals do not see the sin in homosexuality, they see it as perfectly normal.

Another thing about homosexuality that makes it worse, which stems from what I said earlier is that people are trying to make it ok, and make it that anybody who disagrees with them as a horrible person. No other sinner does this. People who have sex before marriage accept that they are sinning, they just accept it and move on. People who cohabitate do not try and fight for their sinlessness, they simply accept it and live the life they chose. Homosexuals however, are not content to accept their sinful status. They have even gone as far as to corrupt certain churches into accepting and endorsing their lifestyle. That is why homosexuality and homosexual marriages are such a threat, because they want to be seen as sinless.

 

[Emory2016]

I am threatened by all sins, homosexuality just happes to be a hot issue at this point and one that everyone is giving all of their focus too!!! Not only does homosexuality bother me, but so does rape, murder, lying (although I am guilty of it, like many others), stealing, sexual immorality of all kinds (premarital sex, adultery, etc.).

 

[ASimon]

Gay people aren’t trying to be seen as sinless - they don’t accept the implied premise that their acts are sinful. What they are doing is trying to be seen as deserving the equal protections of the 14th Amendment.

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Gay people aren’t trying to be seen as sinless - they don’t accept the implied premise that their acts are sinful. What they are doing is trying to be seen as deserving the equal protections of the 14th Amendment.

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

This does not mean that they aren’t sinning, however. The poor souls in Sodom and Gomorrah didn’t recognize their sins until it was too late.

 

[Gods_Peace]

Gay people aren’t trying to be seen as sinless - they don’t accept the implied premise that their acts are sinful. What they are doing is trying to be seen as deserving the equal protections of the 14th Amendment.

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

Did you not understand what he said? homosexuality is a disorder. They are violating God’s Law, and so are you by standing by that evil. Your actually the one lying to yourself to get more sleep tonight.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Did you not understand what he said? homosexuality is a disorder. They are violating God’s Law, and so are you by standing by that evil. Your actually the one lying to yourself to get more sleep tonight.

Yup a disorder, just like divorce, in fact the Catechism uses the word inordinata to describe both (along with masturbation). They are all ordered away from order, id est disordered. I have to admit I’ve never seen someone try to deny divorcés and divorcées marriage.

 

[edwest2]

It is because nobody is trying to claim that raping and murdering are ok. At least nobody sane enough to bother worrying about.

The thing that so many non-religious and pro-gay people do not understand is that by praising homosexuality as perfectly ok, you are attacking the church. It is no longer your own personal lives when you are attacking our Church. At best, they’re saying the church is worthless. At worst, they call the church evil.

Acceptance of homosexuality is truly running rampant to the point where even the perspective “hate the sin, love the sinner” is seen as being intolerant. It is getting to the point where people are afraid of calling out homosexuality for the sin it is, people are starting to fear being seen as righteous, and instead cower out of some stupid fear of being seen on par with racists in about 30 years. Society cares more about how others see them than how God sees them.

They call us judgemental, and cite how Jesus told us never to judge. They cite that Jesus hung out with drunkards and tax collectors, as a pathetic attempt to justify their sinful lifestyle. They claim that we take verses out of context to condemn them. Well, for people who seem to be so against taking verses out of context, they sure do the same thing. For one thing, while it is true that Jesus hung out with drunkards, tax collectors, and other sinners, He did not partake in their sinful lifestyle as these people seem to love to imply. In fact, He told them to go and sin no more. It is absolutely called to not judge others, but these people want to go too far in the other direction and have us be blind fools to sin. Also, if they want their Bible verses in context, they should be reminded that the chapter of Leviticus in which homosexuality is called out upon is nestled within a bunch of other sexual sins that nobody would argue, like bestiality. But of course, bestiality doesn’t make us sound silly, so they cherry pick things like eating pork and shellfish.

Homosexuals are not harmless to their kids. It’s true, there has been no real trauma seen by psychologists, but that is only because homosexuality is not listed as a disorder, and it should be. They claim psychologists proved it wasn’t a disorder, when they didn’t prove anything at all, but simply took it off the list because it wasn’t politically correct. Kids raised by homosexuals do not see the sin in homosexuality, they see it as perfectly normal.

Another thing about homosexuality that makes it worse, which stems from what I said earlier is that people are trying to make it ok, and make it that anybody who disagrees with them as a horrible person. No other sinner does this. People who have sex before marriage accept that they are sinning, they just accept it and move on. People who cohabitate do not try and fight for their sinlessness, they simply accept it and live the life they chose. Homosexuals however, are not content to accept their sinful status. They have even gone as far as to corrupt certain churches into accepting and endorsing their lifestyle. That is why homosexuality and homosexual marriages are such a threat, because they want to be seen as sinless.

Recently, on another forum where I am a moderator, I read the following: “We no longer want to feel sinful, guilty or shameful ever again.”

I was listening to Catholic Radio when a lady from Canada was telling the commentator that she was no longer allowed to speak against homosexuality (the behavior) in Canada. When asked why, she simply said. “I guess they think I’m hurting their feelings.”

And that’s been the problem over the last 40 years, to tell Christians to shut up, and to repeat it constantly. Imagine the heartbreak of mothers and fathers in the 1970s who tried to tell their sons and daughters: “Why are you living together? If you love each other, why don’t you just get married?”

The reply? “Leave us alone. We’re responsible adults! We’ll live how we want!” They weren’t living how they wanted. That was the first lie. I watched my steadfast, for the most part, committed Catholic community begin to change as we were told “leave us alone” about cohabitation. “Leave us alone” about acting out gay behavior. “Leave us alone” about smoking dope.

Just a few years prior, Americans trusted their country’s leaders more, the media generally reflected our values, including the radio and newspapers. No, it was not perfect but we did not lock our doors at night. Of course, there were a few bad apples but nothing serious. You could say it was easy to be Catholic back then.

The worst girlie magazine you could buy on the newstand was Playboy. We didn’t know what coming just a few years down the road. Even the few girlie magazines sold under the counter at liquor stores were just more nudes and semi-nudes compared to Playboy.

All of those magazines were considered dirty and immoral. There was dating, courtship and marriage. Divorce was rare. And it was drilled into our heads: “No sexual intercourse until marriage.” Your wedding vows meant something. And parents on both sides were involved before and after the ceremony.

And those who knew they were committing sinful acts felt a sense of guilt, and some felt they could not stop it. So, orgies, sex parties, homosexual acts – all of this was kept away from public view. But the Church received the great sledgehammer blow in 1968. Pope Paul VI saw what was coming, reaffirmed constant Church teaching about birth control and those dissenters inside and outside the Church attacked as vicious wolves.

Yes, you could say it was easy to be a Christian, but we were gullible and naive and unprepared for the Hippies, radicals and anarchists who would come into our neighborhoods and become the really bad examples.

In a 5 year plan, we went from dissent inside the Church, to the founding of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws in 1969, that we now know spread lies to the media and turned the Church into a villain, followed by the opening of new Opium Dens across America called Adult Bookstores, topless bars and strip clubs. And the Hippies and Anarchists published their underground newspapers that promoted immoral sex, corporations are evil and Marxist ideas. And the underground comics that promoted primarily deviant sex of every variety. And I saw some people succumb to the New Commandments:

Reject all authority. Mom, dad, priests, nuns, and even your neighbors. We are the new authority - imitate US.

Reject all sober thinking about human sexuality and marriage. I heard a Hippie friend of mine refer to fornication as “natural acts,” and he said, "I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady.

Have sex all the time with anyone, anywhere.

By 1973, the ultimate form of contraception - abortion - was legalized and was and still is, surrounded by lies. Homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostic and Statical Manual by the American Psychiatric Association with no credible scientific support.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

In the 1970s, potential priests were told about Church teaching regarding artificial contraception but also that it could change one day. So, they later told parishioners that it was a personal conscience matter. That is changing today

So, let’s look at the big problems facing Americans today. You’'ll note that most revolve around a misuse of human sexuality and the lie that you cannot control yourself.

Abortion.
Pornography addiction.
In-vitro fertilization, which separates love and the marital act.
Attempts to legalize same-sex marriage which were turned down by all states where it was on the ballot.
Catholic politicians who profess a personal opposition to things like abortion and/or an ignorance of Church teaching.
Cohabitation with sex.
No-Fault Divorce, which erodes the sacredness of the marriage vows.
Getting remarried outside the Church.

And a 24/7 media push to put sex, sex and more sex into your face no matter where you look. TV, the movies and radio. It’s OK! It’s legal!

I recently passed a billboard with contact information so you can do a “do-it yourself” divorce.

I’m not threatened by the homosexuals I’ve worked with or the formerly bisexual girl I dated (after she gave her life to Christ).

Peace,
Ed

 

[ASimon]

This does not mean that they aren’t sinning, however. The poor souls in Sodom and Gomorrah didn’t recognize their sins until it was too late.

The poor souls of Sodom and Gomorrah were fictional - along with their sins. So too was Lot, which means he didn’t actually offer his virgin daughters up to the whoring mob outside his front door, in place of God’s angels. Though, I notice that God did still spare him and allow his escape while the fire and sulfur rained down.

My point stands, I’m afraid. Gay people don’t live under the same assumptions as the religious folks who argue against them. If you’re at all serious about making your point to any objective person, you’d do well to stop painting them all as being in willful self-denial of a self-evident truth.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

My point stands, I’m afraid. Gay people don’t live under the same assumptions as the religious folks who argue against them. If you’re at all serious about making your point to any objective person, you’d do well to stop painting them all as being in willful self-denial of a self-evident truth.

But your point is ultimately:

“Gay people are selfish, they don’t care about religious people. They don’t even think about them. They just live their lives for themselves and don’t ever spend time even thinking about other people.”

I know that’s not exactly what you said, but it’s not that far of a stretch is it?
A Simeon:

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

And then, obviously religious people spend time praying for ALL people, irregardless of which group they might be in. I think your outlook on life is dramatically different if you spend time at least a few times a week praying for people suffering in Syria, Nigeria, or wherever it happens to be. *…but our worldview is based off of that. And you’re pretty much admitting that gays are just totally self-obsessed and narcissistic in their own little communities.

IE: how many of them pray for people in countries with civil wars?

Or, in the words of your post… Christians DO LOSE SLEEP worrying about people in oppressive countries [you know REAL oppression, where people are dying], we DO LOSE SLEEP about that.*

 

[Alder]

But your point is ultimately:

“Gay people are selfish, they don’t care about religious people. They don’t even think about them. They just live their lives for themselves and don’t ever spend time even thinking about other people.”

I know that’s not exactly what you said, but it’s not that far of a stretch is it?

Sounds like a stretch to me.

There is a difference between being empathetic and constantly worried about gaining the approval of religious groups.

I doubt anyone on this thread wants something bad to happen to Anglicans, but is not losing sleep over gaining the approval from the Church of England.

Homosexuals are not harmless to their kids. It’s true, there has been no real trauma seen by psychologists, but that is only because homosexuality is not listed as a disorder, and it should be.

That doesn’t make sense…

They claim psychologists proved it wasn’t a disorder, when they didn’t prove anything at all, but simply took it off the list because it wasn’t politically correct.

That’s kind of true. But the fact homosexuality was in the DSM in the first place had very little to with research at all. You might even say it was…politically correct.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

There is a difference between being empathetic and constantly worried about gaining the approval of religious groups.

I doubt anyone on this thread wants something bad to happen to Anglicans, but is not losing sleep over gaining the approval from the Church of England.

Once again, I’ll point to our prayer lives to prove you wrong on your statement. Technically I do lose sleep over the Anglicans, because many nights I lose sleep for praying the Rosary. And near the very end of every Rosary I pray, I pray for the growth of the Anglican Ordinariates.

I’m just saying, from what ASimon wrote he made it sound like gays didn’t give a hoot about anyone but themselves. Even though his immediate contention is that gays don’t care about being approved by Catholics… the ultimate contention, the underlying motivations for those beliefs would be not caring about other people in general.

Ironically, I don’t even agree that gays don’t care about Catholics disapproving of them. If they didn’t care, then there wouldn’t be any protests outside our Churches, and they would never even mention the Church in the media etc. They attack the Church all the time… and yet you say they don’t care that we disapprove of them? **Don’t they want us to accept them? That means they care!
**
But, again the underlying point is once more… they want the world to revolve around them. They are selfish. Whereas we are SELFLESS. We pray for everyone. We care about the souls of everyone. So… YES, that means we lose sleep about the Anglicans too.
The world the gays want is one in which everyone accepts THEM.

The world Catholics want is one in which everyone attains SALVATION through Jesus Christ.

We care about other people on the deepest level… their eternal salvation. They just care about their freedom to have sex everywhere, and to flaunt their sexuality everywhere.

Their worldview is about THEM. Our worldview is about the whole world.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Once again, I’ll point to our prayer lives to prove you wrong on your statement. Technically I do lose sleep over the Anglicans, because many nights I lose sleep for praying the Rosary. And near the very end of every Rosary I pray, I pray for the growth of the Anglican Ordinariates.

I’m just saying, from what ASimon wrote he made it sound like gays didn’t give a hoot about anyone but themselves. Even though his immediate contention is that gays don’t care about being approved by Catholics… the ultimate contention, the underlying motivations for those beliefs would be not caring about other people in general.

Ironically, I don’t even agree that gays don’t care about Catholics disapproving of them. If they didn’t care, then there wouldn’t be any protests outside our Churches, and they would never even mention the Church in the media etc. They attack the Church all the time… and yet you say they don’t care that we disapprove of them? Don’t they want us to accept them? That means they care!

But, again the underlying point is once more… they want the world to revolve around them. They are selfish. Whereas we are SELFLESS. We pray for everyone. We care about the souls of everyone. So… YES, that means we lose sleep about the Anglicans too.
The world the gays want is one in which everyone accepts THEM.

The world Catholics want is one in which everyone attains SALVATION through Jesus Christ.

We care about other people on the deepest level… their eternal salvation. They just care about their freedom to have sex everywhere, and to flaunt their sexuality everywhere.

Their worldview is about THEM. Our worldview is about the whole world.

As someone who has several close gay friends and relatives I have to tell you how incorrect and downright cruel that rant was.

 

[Alder]

Once again, I’ll point to our prayer lives to prove you wrong on your statement. Technically I do lose sleep over the Anglicans, because many nights I lose sleep for praying the Rosary. And near the very end of every Rosary I pray, I pray for the growth of the Anglican Ordinariates.

I didn’t mean “losing sleep over” literally.

I’m just saying, from what ASimon wrote he made it sound like gays didn’t give a hoot about anyone but themselves.

I’ve reread ASimon’s post and all I can say is I’m not sure how you got to that conclusion.

Even though his immediate contention is that gays don’t care about being approved by Catholics… the ultimate contention, the underlying motivations for those beliefs would be not caring about other people in general.

So the fact that most Catholics don’t abide by the Mullahs mean that they don’t care about other people in general?

Ironically, I don’t even agree that gays don’t care about Catholics disapproving of them. If they didn’t care, then there wouldn’t be any protests outside our Churches, and they would never even mention the Church in the media etc. They attack the Church all the time… and yet you say they don’t care that we disapprove of them? Don’t they want us to accept them? That means they care! Don’t they want us to accept them? That means they care!

Well I think gays only care about what the Church says because Catholics make up a portion of a certain voting bloc that isn’t exactly sympathetic to LGBT issues; or at least isn’t perceived by them to be.

I don’t think gays really care all that much about the intricate theological reasons the Church says what it says about homosexuality.

Much like I don’t care about the intricate theological reasons Muslims think eating bacon is immoral yet would be concerned if anti-bacon Muslims ever formed a powerful voting bloc.

 

[RobbyS]

Gay people aren’t trying to be seen as sinless - they don’t accept the implied premise that their acts are sinful. What they are doing is trying to be seen as deserving the equal protections of the 14th Amendment.

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

Of course, they don’t care. What they do care about is someone SAYING that what they do is sinful. Indeed, they want to use the full force of the law against anyone who does.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Once again, I’ll point to our prayer lives to prove you wrong on your statement. Technically I do lose sleep over the Anglicans, because many nights I lose sleep for praying the Rosary. And near the very end of every Rosary I pray, I pray for the growth of the Anglican Ordinariates.

I’m just saying, from what ASimon wrote he made it sound like gays didn’t give a hoot about anyone but themselves. Even though his immediate contention is that gays don’t care about being approved by Catholics… the ultimate contention, the underlying motivations for those beliefs would be not caring about other people in general.

Ironically, I don’t even agree that gays don’t care about Catholics disapproving of them. If they didn’t care, then there wouldn’t be any protests outside our Churches, and they would never even mention the Church in the media etc. They attack the Church all the time… and yet you say they don’t care that we disapprove of them? Don’t they want us to accept them? That means they care!

But, again the underlying point is once more… they want the world to revolve around them. They are selfish. Whereas we are SELFLESS. We pray for everyone. We care about the souls of everyone. So… YES, that means we lose sleep about the Anglicans too.
The world the gays want is one in which everyone accepts THEM.

The world Catholics want is one in which everyone attains SALVATION through Jesus Christ.

We care about other people on the deepest level… their eternal salvation. They just care about their freedom to have sex everywhere, and to flaunt their sexuality everywhere.

Their worldview is about THEM. Our worldview is about the whole world.

As someone who has several close gay friends and relatives I have to tell you how incorrect and downright cruel that rant was.

 

[RobbyS]

As someone who has several close gay friends and relatives I have to tell you how incorrect and downright cruel that rant was.

In what ways is it incorrect? You may not like the tone, and perhaps these souls are in the grip of invincible error, but what they do is harmful to themselves and to society at large. For their concept of what a human being ought to be is wrong.

 

[ASimon]

But your point is ultimately:

“Gay people are selfish, they don’t care about religious people. They don’t even think about them. They just live their lives for themselves and don’t ever spend time even thinking about other people.”

I know that’s not exactly what you said, but it’s not that far of a stretch is it?

It is, I’m sorry to say. It is religious folks, not gay people, who are being selfish. It is not selfish to want to be left alone, and not be told that their personal business, which harms nobody, legally prevents them from enjoying the same freedoms as their neighbors.

It is profoundly selfish, however, to presume to stand as spokepersons for God, the Creator of the Universe, and insist that complete strangers are nothing but poorly calibrated clockwork, and assert their right to stand as arbiters of how everyone else should live.

You are, in no way, entitled to have your opinions respected by the homosexual community. In turn, they are no more entitled to respect from you. What they are entitled to, given that the State has no demonstrated interest in prohibiting it, is the equal protection guaranteed by the 14th Amendment. Your problem is that you think you have legitimate right to deny them this (or expect your government to deny it for you) based on your presumed authority as religious people. Aside from the fact that there exists no compelling evidence that this authority is worth the Bible it’s printed on, the government explicitly denies that you have such authority.

And then, obviously religious people spend time praying for ALL people, irregardless of which group they might be in. I think your outlook on life is dramatically different if you spend time at least a few times a week praying for people suffering in Syria, Nigeria, or wherever it happens to be. *…but our worldview is based off of that. And you’re pretty much admitting that gays are just totally self-obsessed and narcissistic in their own little communities.

IE: how many of them pray for people in countries with civil wars?

Or, in the words of your post… Christians DO LOSE SLEEP worrying about people in oppressive countries [you know REAL oppression, where people are dying], we DO LOSE SLEEP about that.*

I’m sorry, but this is quite amusing. You accuse gay people, who want the same rights as straight people, of being self-obsessed and narcissistic, while patting yourself on the back for spending a few minutes every week praying - that is, asking an invisible man who might not even be there - praying that he will relieve the suffering of CHRISTIANS in other parts of the world. Not Muslims. Nor Buddhists. Not the functionally a-religious - who might want a relationship with some God, if only they didn’t have to focus so much on finding food and not being murdered by drug-addled soldiers. None of these people who, incidentally, are destined for an eternity in Hell if they don’t manage to get their theological act together. Just the Christians.

I don’t know how many gay people actually pray for those living lives more unfortunate than their own. My guess is that few do. Part of the reason could be that if they’re going to commit to helping people, they have more practical ideas for accomplishing this than kneeling at one’s bedside and asking God to do all the heavy lifting.

 

[ASimon]

Of course, they don’t care. What they do care about is someone SAYING that what they do is sinful. Indeed, they want to use the full force of the law against anyone who does.

“The full force of the law” doesn’t count for much in this case. The 1st Amendment is still the 1st Amendment, and you can still freely act like a bigot without legal reprisal, and I don’t support any effort to change that. As an atheist, I have to listen to people talk about how people who think like me should be put on public lists, alongside sex offenders, and be basically denied any realistic chance of winning political office. Ultimately, I can only sigh and await a more tolerant day. My existence is probably affront to more than a small percentage of my countrymen, but I’m not afforded any more right to be unoffended than they are.

 

[Seeker1961]

Homosexuality is a unique topic-and people really do love to talk about it!. It is a sin that few people have ever or will ever have any inclination to commit, so it’s really easy to look at “them” and even use them to avoid looking at the sins many people do have the inclination to commit. Thst’s why there is a whole lot more fuss about homosexuality than there is about divorce or adultery or greed or lust…or any of those sins common to a larger population of people.

 

[kbwall]

Gay people aren’t trying to be seen as sinless - they don’t accept the implied premise that their acts are sinful. What they are doing is trying to be seen as deserving the equal protections of the 14th Amendment.

You need to get it out of your head that everybody else is walking around living life on your terms. Most homosexuals don’t lose one minute of sleep worrying about whether people like you think they’re violating God’s laws.

If gay people did not care about how the church sees their actions, then why are they constantly complaining about it? Why are there churches that choose to ignore homosexuality as a sin? Why do they try and use Bible verses out of context to justify their actions? Why is calling homosexuality out on its sinfulness considered intolerant now?

I’m sorry, but what you just said is blatantly false. Yes, I’m sure there are some homosexuals who are atheist and therefore do not care at all what the church thinks of them, but there are also many homosexuals who want to not be seen as sinners.