Why some conservative Catholics want to stop Pope John Paul II being made a saint
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didymus
Guest
There’s something to be said for the old process where it took a couple centuries to canonise someone. With the new, streamlined process (thx to JPII) several causes have gone thru or are in process where historical wounds are still fresh: Sts Edith Stein and Maxamillian Kolbe, Pope Pius XII and Pope John Paul II himself*.
*I do not want to start a debate about the worthiness of any of these Causes, which I do not question.
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hansard
Guest
Doesn’t he need to have several miracles attributed to his direct intercession? By that, I mean that the prospective saint cannot actually have performed the miracle (that’s for God alone).
I never thought it was good enough simply to have been Pope, or just a “good, holy guy”.
I never thought it was good enough simply to have been Pope, or just a “good, holy guy”.
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Tsuwano
Guest
Not all saints required “a couple centuries” to be canonized. Both St. Francis and St. Claire were canonized relatively recently after their deaths. In fact, I believe the miracles normally required for canonization were even waived for St. Francis. The old process for canonization of saints was probably less consistant that the present one.
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MrS
Guest
I think Catholics, for the most part, need to concentrate on getting their own holiness level elevated. I know I do.
When I hear “…the Great”, I usually respond, “… oh, you mean the Pretty Good.”
Let’s see what fruits come from a few decades or more of studying his massive writings. Then the discussion might turn to one of sainthood. I rather doubt it, IMHO.
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When I hear “…the Great”, I usually respond, “… oh, you mean the Pretty Good.”
Let’s see what fruits come from a few decades or more of studying his massive writings. Then the discussion might turn to one of sainthood. I rather doubt it, IMHO.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I’m feeling some validation here, as I’ve never been overly impressed with JP2 as a pope. That is distinct from my huge respect for him for what he did in Poland, before his papacy: in those actions he was outright heroic, in my view. But I’ve had very mixed feelings about his papacy for a very long time. Now, having read the linked blog, my concerns have been echoed in others. One thing that really got to me is how little time during his 26 years, which included extensive traveling, he spent in the U.S. When someone ignores you, it speaks volumes. The U.S. desperately needs a pope committed to in-person dialogue with the Catholic faithful in this country. I’m not even vaguely surprised at the continuing falling-away of cradle Catholics over the last generation. I was impressed with how quickly Benedict decided to come to NY. That was the right move, i.m.o.
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mdgspencer
Guest
There is room for feeling that a pope was holy but largely a failure (and in fact that is what I think of Pope Paul VI). However, I don’t feel this is the case with Pope John Paul II. Some bad problems in the Church that developed after Vatican II were being dealt with. Younger priests for example are more orthodox and it is the older 1960s style liberal priests that are dying out. The craziest days of liturigal abuses are over (for exmaple in the 1960s a priest I know concelebrated mass with a Protestant minister), and he has dealt with this problem with some success, He did too try to deal with the secularization of Catholic universities in the U.S. too for example, though most of the “Catholic” universities have been so far gone that they would not listen. I did find it unsettling that some bad problems were being dealt with so slowly, but perhaps he was concerned that if he acted more forcefully and rapidly, there would have been some serious schisms in the Church–and there would have been. There have been bad problems, but most of them were being deal with well in time.
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canadianguy1143
Guest
St Anthony of Padua was canonized a Saint within 1 year of his death!!
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canadianguy1143
Guest
Emphasis mine.
Lack of travelling does not equal ignoring you for Papal travells.
How many times did he go to the USA?
1979
1987
1993
1995
Considering how big the World is, I’d say he wasn’t ignoring the USA at all.
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CGDouglas
Guest
canadianguy, according to USCCB it was:
- 1979
- 1981
- 1984
- 1987
- 1993
- 1995
- 1999
Source #2.
I agree, I highly doubt he was ignoring the states…
God Bless.
Chris.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Some Americans need to get over themselves and realize there are other Nations besides us. He seem to visit alot but the world is rather large, what do they want? The Pope to ignore the rest of the world?
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thunderballs75
Guest
Look. I like JPII. He was a great man with a great soul. He most likely is in heaven. He did great things against communism. He also did a lot to promote the Rosary, such as his writings and addition of the Luminous Mysteries.
However, it is true. During his pontificate abuses during Masses flourished. Not to mention his sometimes heretical, though well-intentioned, indifferentism towards Judaism and other religions. His traveling all of the time may have been one reason he wasn’t able to focus so much on these problems.
God bless, and may the Holy Spirit give us wisdom.
However, it is true. During his pontificate abuses during Masses flourished. Not to mention his sometimes heretical, though well-intentioned, indifferentism towards Judaism and other religions. His traveling all of the time may have been one reason he wasn’t able to focus so much on these problems.
God bless, and may the Holy Spirit give us wisdom.
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cyberwolf001
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Digitonomy
Guest
I agree with your general assessment of his papacy - pretty good, not great.
On the other hand, I think the argument from the blog is a bit misguided:
Most would agree that John Paul showed heroic virtue during the Nazi years and during the final months of his life. As for “papal” virtue, I’m not sure what that is - is there a different kind of virtue practiced only by popes? John Paul was more competent at some things than others, and administration was not one of his stronger suits. But a lack of competence is not the same as a lack of virtue.
I don’t think there should be any hurry, but I think it’s quite possible John Paul will be named a saint. We are supremely blessed that God brought him into this world. How much or how little we are blessed that he was pope for 25 years is an argument that shouldn’t affect his sainthood.
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thunderballs75
Guest
I said most likely. I’m not sure.
But how about all of those other things I talked about?
God bless.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
That was all I had a question on and wanted it cleared up.I said most likely. I’m not sure.
But how about all of those other things I talked about?
God bless.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Other Americans need to understand that token visits are not enough. It’s my observation that Pope Benedict already wants to engage with the U.S. way more than JP2 ever wanted to and ever did – visits or not.
The U.S. has a disproportional influence on the rest of the world – whether you like or I like it (and in some areas, I don’t necessarily like it). Since the U.S. is a major power, any other major leader needs to make the U.S. a prominent part of his or her agenda if he or she wants the U.S. to contribute to positive changes in the world, in the sphere of influence of concern.
Otherwise, face the consequences of further moral decay.
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cyberwolf001
Guest
Why?
An either of there actions are bad things why? The USA isn’t the center of the world or the Church.
Believe it or not but many nations do a lot of good without having the US on board, the US is not the capital of this planet and getting to tell every other nation what they may and may not do.
So if the Pope doesn’t visit and make a priority of the US the world’s morality will decay? You do realize we dont have as much influence as many in our Goverment and Media would like us to think we do right?
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Ceil-1
Guest
I suggest we let the Holy Spirit guide the Church in this matter, and stop giving ourselves authority we don’t have to judge this man.
I am certainly grateful I will be judged by God and not the posters on this thread, that’s for sure. I wonder how you’ll hold up, in the “the mercy you give will be the mercy you recieve” category. My guess is, John Paul II will hold up better than you. But, not to worry, I’m sure you’ll tell God what to think, too.
I am certainly grateful I will be judged by God and not the posters on this thread, that’s for sure. I wonder how you’ll hold up, in the “the mercy you give will be the mercy you recieve” category. My guess is, John Paul II will hold up better than you. But, not to worry, I’m sure you’ll tell God what to think, too.
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Mattapoisett64
Guest
If I recall correctly, only a handful of popes over the 2,000 years of the Church have been canonized. However, 3 of the most recent 5 late popes are in some stage of the process (Pius XII, Bl John XXIII, John Paul II). My concern is that at some level even just *being *pope seems to have become equated with the level of “heroic virtue” associated with sainthood.
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