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Hildebrand
Guest
Apparently, someone does not like the Catholic Church very much.
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Apparently, someone does not like the Catholic Church very much.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Hildebrand said:
Apparently, someone does not like the Catholic Church very much.
It’s not that at all. More specifically, I was referring to my own former denomination. I contemplated converting to Catholicism some 9 months ago and respect Pope JP2 tremendously, along with some fine Catholics here. At this point, I don’t like any Christian denominations really, even though I grew up Southern Baptist. I have renounced all that and become a Noahide - which I believe is the only faith that makes sense and offers freedom.
Peace…
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Mickey
Guest
Your journey is not finished yet, my friend!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_15.gif
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Ignatius
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Michael,
Throughout Holy Writ, whenever the Keys are given, it is a metaphor for giving of power and authority.
God Bless.
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bjcros
Guest
I don’t know what my question is I’m confused. I don’t believe the Pope has ultimate authority and I was trying to understand how he got that in catholic understanding, and other things about the catholic faith. maybe I have misconceptions about the faith but the more I learn about the Catholic the more I disagree with it.
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bjcros
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I’m not looking to convert to catholicism b/c it doesn’t make any sense to me, and goes against some of my beliefs right now. I am trying to understand it b/c I have a catholic teacher at school and he isn’t good at defending his position at all. I want to know what arguments there are for the issues. So that I can see both sides.
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bjcros
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Church Militant:
I knew what you meant by the Eucharist, but I can just say that it is you that have the misconceptions lol. Where is that passage that Jesus say that we are grafted into an olive tree? Without looking back over the passage, I’m not sure but I think that the olive tree didn’t symbolize the Jews. Your right we ceased to be purely a jewish sect. Did the sanhedrin or other jewish council recognize the seperation?
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adnauseum
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Romans 11:16-21
The branch grafted to the olive tree is most certainly a reference to Jews and Christians.
Catholics have known this for thousands of years.
The branch grafted to the olive tree is most certainly a reference to Jews and Christians.
Catholics have known this for thousands of years.
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bjcros
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Alright so the Jews are going to Heaven just because they are jewish? I understand it as the jews who reject Jesus are the branches that were cut off. That is how I interpret the passage. I don’t care what race you are if you reject Jesus you are condemned to Hell. That is Biblical. Jesus said I am the Way the Truth and the Life no man commeth before the Father except through me.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
What many of our Protestant brethern fail to realize is that there cannot be as many as two competing truths. When as few as two churches have different teachings, one must be wrong.
They seek to find victories in two ways – first by saying, “It isn’t REALLY 33,000 separate churches, and there’s a BIG difference between 33,000 and 3.300 or 330.”
That, of course is nonsense – as stated above, a mere two would be enough to show the results of splitting from the one Church which has preserved the message for nearly 2,000 years.
The second argument they make is, “Well, there REALLY isn’t all that much difference between these churches.”
And the proper reply to that is, “There was enough difference to cause them to split. And there remains enough difference to keep them split.”
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SusanL
Guest
Ok. I understand. Have you checked out the tracts on Catholic.com? They would probably give you a much clearer understanding of what Catholics believe. It might be easier for you than reading some of our arguments.
This would give you information on the Church and the papacy:
catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
This might help you to understand why we believe in the Eucharist and other sacraments:
catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
I fear that you will get more confused if you rely solely on the message boards. Some posters are very educated and some (not unlike myself) are still very much in the learning phase. (smile)
You can trust what you read in the tracts. They are easy to read and exactly what the church teaches.
Thank you for making yourself clear to me. I also appreciate your not bashing us. It is so refreshing to find someone who really is interested in hearing what the others have to say.
May God lead us both to truth.
Your sister in Christ,
Sue
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ahimsaman72
Guest
vern humphrey:
Every person has their understanding of “truth”. Just because you or Christ claims they have/are/know the truth doesn’t make it so. I can’t measure it or calculate it. I can’t dissect it and verify it by simple observation or scientific principles. The best humans have to go on is the logic and reasoning abilities given them in this life and the guide of their moral conscience. And, after that, simple faith comes into play. If I have used the capabilites given me by G-d to the best of my ability and still can’t find the “truth” (your definition of it), then the rest is not up to me - it is in the hands of the One who made me - the G-d of Israel, blessed be His name. I trust in His good judgement and not anyone else’s.
Peace…
That’s the fallacy in your thinking. You automatically declare one true and the other false. This logic may work in mathematics and science, but is unreasonable in religion. You can’t put G-d under a microscope and verify His message. You can, however, dissect a frog and know his inmost parts using the scientific method. You can’t arrive at truth by scientific method in the spiritual/supernatural realm.
Every person has their understanding of “truth”. Just because you or Christ claims they have/are/know the truth doesn’t make it so. I can’t measure it or calculate it. I can’t dissect it and verify it by simple observation or scientific principles. The best humans have to go on is the logic and reasoning abilities given them in this life and the guide of their moral conscience. And, after that, simple faith comes into play. If I have used the capabilites given me by G-d to the best of my ability and still can’t find the “truth” (your definition of it), then the rest is not up to me - it is in the hands of the One who made me - the G-d of Israel, blessed be His name. I trust in His good judgement and not anyone else’s.
Peace…
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I LOVE it! To maintain your postion, you have to reject basic logic and pretend that truth is somehow mutable and fungible.
I congratulate you. A person who could sincerly advance THAT argument could believe anything, anything at all.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
Who put God under a microscope?
Did you do it? If not you, then who?
I agree with your comment that Every person has their understanding of “truth” That’s certainly true among Protestant denomiations – which is why there are so many Protestant denominations.
But “every person’s understanding” is not Christ’s message. Truth doesn’t mutate and modify itself from person to person. It remains constant. What changes occur, occur in the minds of men who have broken away from the Church.
Christ obvioulsy understood this would happen, if He didn’t take steps to prevent it. Those steps included establishing His Church, appointing Peter and his successors to lead it, and granting the Magisterium to the Church.
I belive if Christ claims He has/is/knows the truth, that DOES make it so.
I don’t see how you can disagree and claim to be a Christian.
I agree with your comment that Every person has their understanding of “truth” That’s certainly true among Protestant denomiations – which is why there are so many Protestant denominations.
But “every person’s understanding” is not Christ’s message. Truth doesn’t mutate and modify itself from person to person. It remains constant. What changes occur, occur in the minds of men who have broken away from the Church.
Christ foresaw that – which is why He created His Church the way He did. His wisdom is evident when you see how His Church has taught a consistent message for 2,000 years, and the break-away churches keep splitting and re-splitting.
Obviously you DON’T trust His good judgement – because you work very hard to circumvent the process He set up to keep His message pure.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
vern humphrey:
Basic logic we all use. The reasoning you are using to get to your religious conclusions is based on mathematical and scientific reasoning. My point is that natural and spiritual are two different realms of existence. You can’t use mathematical logic to arrive at the conclusion that G-d exists or that G-d has said, “X is the truth”. Faith comes in at some point.
No one has done that to date, although scientific achievement is advancing every day. It’s physically impossible to put Him under a microscope as far as I know.
It is true of every human being on this planet. There’s not one Catholic that agrees with another on each and every issue. Some practice birth control, some don’t, etc. It’s not just a protestant thing. As I have already stated, every religion on earth is segmented - fractured. I see no difference in the world’s religions today. All claim infallible truth. All have “proofs”. All have what they believe is truth and work very hard to convince you of this.
Just because you claim to be the President of the US doesn’t make it so, does it? It boils down to your BELIEF that Christ claimed what he did and that He is who He is. I don’t claim to be a Christian. Where do you get your ideas?
Again, your version of truth is different than Mohammed’s and Buddha’s. So, why should your truth be followed any more than theirs?
Obviously since I don’t prescribe to your views and religion you can do nothing else but cast doubt on mine and attempt to know what I think and how I feel. I’ve worked very hard to figure out this truth you are proclaiming, however I came to the conclusion that the Jews had it right all along and it is Christians that have circumvented G-d’s process.
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SusanL
Guest
All right. Here I go, walking where angels fear to tread. 
Wasn’t there a prediction in the Book of Isaiah about Jesus? It seems to me that there was a school that would only allow Old Testament scriptures to be read so not to offend the Jewish people. (Old Testament was accepted by both the Jews and the Christians).
When the scripture was read, a Jewish family objected because it sounded like the New Testament reading of Jesus. It wasn’t. It was Isaiah predicting the coming of Jesus.
I guess that I’m going to have to go and look it up. Ahimsaman72, have you ever heard about the scriptures from our Old Testament (your Torah, is it?–not sure of the proper name so please forgive me in advance) that described Jesus’ birth and death?
I know, I know. I have to go look it up.
Wasn’t there a prediction in the Book of Isaiah about Jesus? It seems to me that there was a school that would only allow Old Testament scriptures to be read so not to offend the Jewish people. (Old Testament was accepted by both the Jews and the Christians).
When the scripture was read, a Jewish family objected because it sounded like the New Testament reading of Jesus. It wasn’t. It was Isaiah predicting the coming of Jesus.
I guess that I’m going to have to go and look it up. Ahimsaman72, have you ever heard about the scriptures from our Old Testament (your Torah, is it?–not sure of the proper name so please forgive me in advance) that described Jesus’ birth and death?
I know, I know. I have to go look it up.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Susan,All right. Here I go, walking where angels fear to tread.
Wasn’t there a prediction in the Book of Isaiah about Jesus? It seems to me that there was a school that would only allow Old Testament scriptures to be read so not to offend the Jewish people. (Old Testament was accepted by both the Jews and the Christians).
When the scripture was read, a Jewish family objected because it sounded like the New Testament reading of Jesus. It wasn’t. It was Isaiah predicting the coming of Jesus.
I guess that I’m going to have to go and look it up. Ahimsaman72, have you ever heard about the scriptures from our Old Testament (your Torah, is it?–not sure of the proper name so please forgive me in advance) that described Jesus’ birth and death?
I know, I know. I have to go look it up.
The predictions that Christians cite for reference to Jesus can all be refuted, even the Isaiah passage. I refer you to www.jewsforjudaism.org and click on the e-book referring to the messiah on that front page. There are plenty of resources that will help explain. Also, a site I often refer to is: www.jewfaq.org
Torah is a term used differently by different people. In its broad usage it refers to the Pentateuch, Writings and Prophets which are similar to the Protestant OT, not the Catholic OT. In its narrow usage it refers to the Pentateuch only (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy). The whole Jewish text is referred to as the Tanakh, which is comprised of Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim. Here is a link that briefly describes this: topicguide.com/Bible.html
I respect your gentle spirit and zeal for your faith, however it is a faith which I do not espouse. I have many wonderful Christian family members and friends whom I love very much. But, I must follow my own path in life as you must follow yours.
Peace…
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vern_humphrey
Guest
You’re creating a strawman argument. No one has said we can arrive at God with scientific methods. But logic holds, whether we discuss religion or politics. It is no accident that the great Christian teachers were also logicians.
Then why do you imply that someone IS putting God under a microscope?
That’s the Protestant Smokescreen. Catholics do not determine dogma by voting on it.
To say that some Catholics are poorly-educated in their religion, or are willfully resisting the teaching of the Church is one thing. To pretend that somehow invalidates Church teaching, or shows the Church’s teaching is not consistent is simply false.
The sins or lack of knowledge of individual Catholics do not change Catholic dogma.
When did I claim to be President of the United States?
If you’re not a Christian, where do you get the authority to tell Christians what they believe?
I’m beginning to suspect you don’t know what Mohammed or Buddha taught.
So are you a Jew?
If not, why not?
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Mickey
Guest
Greetings my friend,
The Catholic Church teaches a unified doctrine. I’ve said this so many times, but I’ll say it again. Men don’t corrupt doctrine. Men corrupt men. Why do you continue to insist that since some individual Catholics refuse to follow certain teachings of the bride of Christ (the Church), that it is the Church teaching this? You see many protestant churches actually teach pro-choice, birth control etc. from the pulpit!
Correct me if I’m wrong but you were baptist, and then psuedo baptist buddhist and now you are noahist(sp?). You are searching my friend. Sometimes analyzing something to death can cause frustaration and confusion. Open your heart and let the grace of God lead you home. Ephphatha!
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ahimsaman72
Guest
vern humphrey:
G-d does not expect more from those who cannot give it. No matter how hard I try, I cannot change the fact that I am a Gentile born to Gentile parents and grew up in a Christian environment. G-d expects all mankind to follow at least the 7 laws of Noah and if one does, then one is righteous.
Peace…
Just creating a bridge between your claim that Jesus is the truth and said, X, Y and Z and the fact that you could say the same thing and it wouldn’t change anything
I was a Christian for 32 years and studied that faith extensively over time. I’m not obsessive compulsive about authority myself. Many get overly excited about that idea, but I do not.
And again you would be wrong partially. I know little of Mohammed and alot about Buddha. I studied Buddhism heavily and practiced it. Your supposed knowledge of me is incredibly arrogant. I have posted numerous times of Buddhist teaching and started a long thread about the teaching of Buddha, both of which you can easily look up.
I am not a Jew. I am a Noahide. The only way I could be one is to convert to Judaism. Non-Jews are discouraged from converting because of the complexity of the conversion. Instead of following the 7 Noahide laws, one must follow the 613 laws and be an observant Jew. You do the math. G-d has declared that the one who follows the 7 Noahide laws is righteous in G-d’s eyes, so why burden oneself with further laws?
G-d does not expect more from those who cannot give it. No matter how hard I try, I cannot change the fact that I am a Gentile born to Gentile parents and grew up in a Christian environment. G-d expects all mankind to follow at least the 7 laws of Noah and if one does, then one is righteous.
Peace…
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Mickey
Guest
I know you love Jesus. So do I. And I would be ecstatic if the whole world loved Jesus! But we must be careful about stating who is condemned to hell. I know that Jesus says that no one comes to the Father except through Him, but we also must remember the verse about that plank in the eye thing. Catch my drift?
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