Why Students Leave The Engineering Track

[Monte_RCMS]

each week. They can make a little spread sheet. By hand. Don’t need a computer.

Actually, kids CAN learn by osmosis … they learn music. They learn sports scores. They learn fan information about their favorite celebrities.

So, give them challenges with cash rewards so they can learn “boring” stuff from real life.

When you go to a store, ask the kids to help by writing down prices of items and adding up the list. Which items are the best price deal on a per ounce basis.

Have them keep track of how many miles per gallon your car gets. Just note the mileage on the odometer each time you fill up the tank. Keep track of miles traveled and gallons purchased.

On trips, let them keep track of how many miles and how many hours and minutes and calculate average speed. Let them follow along on a map.

[Leave the computer and the GPS behind.]

Take ten minutes and ask them to help you measure your house … length and width and calculate the area. Ask them to make a scale drawing.

Measure the length and width and height of your car. How much does it weigh? How much horsepower does it have? Compare with other cars. [Not a good or bad thing, just a comparison]

When your electric bill comes in, ask them to calculate the average kwh per day. Show them on the computer how to find the degree days and relate degree days to heating and cooling costs.

Ask them to graph the data.

Give them all your old electric and heating bills and make a data table and then graph the data.

If your town has droughts or floods, have the kids research previous such events and plot them on a time line. They can learn history AND physics at the same time.

We live in a world of math, but the kids are not encouraged to observe or learn the math.

 

[Catholic90]

Anglophones seem to use this excuse a lot these days. In math and the sciences, this happens a lot but shouldn’t be a barrier. I had teachers back in the 60’s who had such heavy accents when they talked no one could understand them either but once they started using the chalkboard, all understood. If you don’t know math symbols and shorthand or don’t know the many pronunciations of different technical terms, you have no business being in engineering or physics. The universe wasn’t written in English.

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood. The students should not spend all of class trying to decipher what us being said language-wise, but should be focusing on the material being taught. One of his professors was directly from china, and he often forgot to speak English, breaking in Chinese language explanations. He offered no help during office hours, telling students instead to “read the book”. They did, and learned it, so why was the prof even there? He clearly was not an asset to teaching.

 

[ProVobis]

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood.

Of course. But what do you expect when you study something like Nuclear Physics…a public school kindergarten teacher? Agree or don’t agree, but some of the world’s best teachers in science don’t speak English well. Why do you think to get a doctorate in Physics required you at one time to be able to read in French, German, and Russian? (Or two of the three anyway.)

Incidentally I was taught theology by Chinese and Polish priests. I don’t think it hurt me one bit.

 

[Cat]

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood. The students should not spend all of class trying to decipher what us being said language-wise, but should be focusing on the material being taught. One of his professors was directly from china, and he often forgot to speak English, breaking in Chinese language explanations. He offered no help during office hours, telling students instead to “read the book”. They did, and learned it, so why was the prof even there? He clearly was not an asset to teaching.

Amen!

 

[curlycool89]

However, I have noticed that a lot of my friends in the U.S. sort of design their own engineering college program. And end up with a degree in “cyber-thermodynamics” or some such thing. Because they got interested in infrared spectrometry and chip design for high temperature environments.

It must be different in the US then because that would never work here. They even have restrictions on which humanities electives you are allowed to take (there’s a list you have to prick from). If you’re missing classes from your program (as listed in the Calendar or courses that are counted as equivalent) they won’t give you a degree. Period.

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood. The students should not spend all of class trying to decipher what us being said language-wise, but should be focusing on the material being taught. One of his professors was directly from china, and he often forgot to speak English, breaking in Chinese language explanations. He offered no help during office hours, telling students instead to “read the book”. They did, and learned it, so why was the prof even there? He clearly was not an asset to teaching.

Ah, the professors that have no business teaching. If you’re going to stand in front of the class and read your powerpoint slides for an hour or tell me to read the book, then why are you even here? Why are we even paying you when I could replace you with a robot and get just as much understanding?

Now I don’t have any problems with having to look up some information, but if you aren’t even going to attempt to teach the basics then why are you even teaching?

You know how you know you have a good professor? When they can teach an entire class without even glancing at their prepared notes. They’ll make an example up off the top of their head and then take you through the steps of solving it (if it’s a type of problem that you’ve never encountered before). Or the ones that will go beyond prepared notes and handouts. The ones who just read them out you can tell just don’t care. The question pops up in your head pretty quickly after that: “If you don’t care about this, then why should I?”

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood. The students should not spend all of class trying to decipher what us being said language-wise, but should be focusing on the material being taught. One of his professors was directly from china, and he often forgot to speak English, breaking in Chinese language explanations. He offered no help during office hours, telling students instead to “read the book”. They did, and learned it, so why was the prof even there? He clearly was not an asset to teaching.

It’s even more insulting when the students at my university (and any university in Canada I believe) are required to prove proficiency in english before enrolment. I think I should reasonably be able to expect the same from the professors, don’t you?

 

[ProVobis]

It’s even more insulting when the students at my university (and any university in Canada I believe) are required to prove proficiency in english before enrolment.

Do they still do that?

Last time I checked the US was about 25th in reading.

 

[jenkiedad]

Perhaps I can offer some perspective on the “engineering track”, since I’m an an engineering school graduate and a licensed professional engineer with quite a few years of experience under my belt:

• There are engineering schools, then there are engineering schools. In other words, not all engineering schools are created equal. Fortunately there is an organization that accredits engineering schools (www.abet.org). If a school is not ABET accredited, then avoid it.
• Some schools try and steer you to a program called “engineering technology”. My recommendation is to avoid it. There are no ABET accredited engineering technology degrees.
• Typical engineering degrees have a defined program of classes you must be taking each semester to stay on track. There are not a lot of options to take electives until your junior and senior years.
• As a “rule of thumb”, if you can pass the required calculus classes, your biggest academic hurdle is over. It’s just building up “sweat equity” after that. You’ll have the smarts at that point.
• For most engineering degrees, undergrads don’t even take a true engineering class until their junior year. The first 2 years are full of math, chemistry, physics, science, etc. Many schools offer a “general engineering” type seminar for freshmen so that they know what engineers really do.
• Girl friends or boy friends, as appropriate, and being a good engineering student do not mix well; you just don’t have the time to devote to a healthy relationship if you want to be an engineering major.
• 18 hours per week of study for an engineering student doesn’t cut it; maybe 18 hours per class per week for some classes and less for others. However, if you’re taking a full course load, you need to plan on a minimum of 40 hours per week outside of class in study time.
• If you make it to your senior year in engineering, take the fundamentals in engineering (or FE) exam offered by your state’s engineering board. If anybody tells you not to take this test (as some professors have been known to do), they are doing you a disservice. If successful, the test puts you on the path to obtaining an engineering license. The test mostly coveres junior level material, but if you wait until after you graduate, it will be amazing on how much you will forget once you’re out of college.
• Regarding professors that don’t have a command of the English language, I would recommend anyone that is not already knowledgeable in the specific course material, to avoid it like the plague. Yes, mathematics and formulas are a universal language, but when you don’t understand what the professor is saying, you are putting yourself at a distinct disadvantage.
• Not learning to read, speak and write well in the English language can put you at a serious disadvantage in the real world of business. Unfortunately, too many engineering schools have been de-emphasizing that aspect of a good education. This world is full of a lot of engineers that have a hard time communicating with those outside of the engineering community. This is a continuing problem. Colleges and universities don’t put enough emphasis on the mandatory English classes required for graduation and too often settle for substandard quality. Mandatory history and government classes, as well as some engineering courses that require written reports, are also not following up on requiring good grammar and composition.

I hope this provides some perspective from at least one engineer.

 

[ProVobis]

I hope this provides some perspective from at least one engineer.

Good analysis.

Business courses may help, though, since many engineers eventually become financial engineers. (I’m serious. Much more lucrative.)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

So, apparently there just aren’t enough U.S. students who love the applied sciences! No doubt India will supply them.

No, apparently China. At least according to Apple.

nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&ref=business

The Apple execs interviewed talk about how the US doesn’t educate the mid-level engineers they need to oversee manufacturing work. Of course the supply chain and huge factories aren’t in the US either.

 

[curlycool89]

Do they still do that?

Last time I checked the US was about 25th in reading.

It’s mostly for international students I believe. You have to show you’ve gotten a certain score in a test like TOEFL.

• There are engineering schools, then there are engineering schools. In other words, not all engineering schools are created equal. Fortunately there is an organization that accredits engineering schools (www.abet.org). If a school is not ABET accredited, then avoid it.

Ah, there is an accreditation board in the US. The equivalent Canadian body is Engineers Canada. I’ve heard they’re working on a bi-lateral agreement to recognize each others credentials to streamline movement between countries (it makes it so much easier when it’s 2 non-governmental entities, because they care more about making sure the technicalities are smoothed out instead of just political posturing).

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Good engineers are born, not made. I’ve been in engineering (electronics, process controls, some mechanical) for almost 2 decades and I find that many of the younger folks are indeed smart “kids” but have not really had any real hands-on experiences. Or, they truly just do not grasp certain principles. It’s not a youth-thing either. Some kids are really good students, they can pass tests, but just don’t have engineering-minds. Pushing kids thru Engineering schools doesn’t automatically turn out engineers. And yes the number one reason I hear is that they can make good money quicker.

Also, the lines between scientist and engineer are blurred today. (who knew there was a line, right?). Scientists are the free thinkers, they work in laboratory environments, and are not necessarily pressured with deadlines, so they can work more creatively at research. Engineers however need to be more disciplined, they take the ideas of science and make them into practical things. Engineers need to understand common sizes of materials for example, and realistic manufacturing processes in order to make things that work properly and are cost effective. They need to know how stuff works, but also how to put something that has many random outcomes into a few finite boxes, while understanding what to do with the remaining outcomes. What I find is that many young engineers are taking the scientist approach, which is good for a while, but are not objective enough to make real decisions. A scientist will tinker forever on a really good idea, and is perfectly happy with a career in a lab. However an engineer has to make tough decisions and know when to stop certain things, and be objective enough to move ahead with an application.

My own personal opinion is that many of the “kids” I encounter have been taught there are no wrong outcomes in life, that everything is a winner. What happens now as they are adults is that they can’t reject bad ideas, they are afraid to make real decisions. For many reasons; not wanting to hurt someone else feelings, a fear of being judgemental, intimidation of finding more problems, etc. Every idea and project gets attention now, every idea gets approval. But no problems really get solved, just moved around a bit.

I have about 20yrs yet to retire, but I’m a little pessimistic about our country’s mfg future. I don’t believe we have the same engineering and manufacturing potential as we did during WW2. Having grown up in an farming lifestyle, I had some real hands on experience when I started down the road in engineering. As a young guy my first technicians experiences were working with an old retired GE engineer; good Lord he worked me like a mule! He was a WW2 era engineer, and he was fluent on his Mac as he was on his old slide rule. But I got to like working with him because he taught me some good engineering discipline. And to make hard decisions; even if it may hurt someones feelings a bit, you cannot appease the entire office and put a bad design into a product.

God Bless

My father in law was an engineer (very high tech stuff on defense contracts) and he absolutely agrees with this. Without the discipline to say no, you spin your wheels and design cycles and end up with a very expensive inferior product.

I am beginning to think that we are already past any manufacturing potential in this country simply because not too many people know how to work hard or think they have to rise through the ranks. I see too many new graduates who think they should be project leaders or executives immediately.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I disagree. When a student chooses a US university and PAYS TUITION to learn something and earn a degree, he or she should be taught in a language that is understood. The students should not spend all of class trying to decipher what us being said language-wise, but should be focusing on the material being taught. One of his professors was directly from china, and he often forgot to speak English, breaking in Chinese language explanations. He offered no help during office hours, telling students instead to “read the book”. They did, and learned it, so why was the prof even there? He clearly was not an asset to teaching.

And when your child graduates and gets his first job, will he complain to HR because his co-workers are from India, China, Japan, Germany and speak with an accent? Or perhaps speak Farsi at lunch and solve issues without his (name removed by moderator)ut?

Certainly the professor should have spoken English in class. But there is nothing wrong with a college professor expecting students to have read the textbook before coming to him with questions.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

A basic high school four-year program should include:

1. Math … up through calculus; how to collect data (part of science lab) and how to do statistical analysis. At the least knowing about averages, means, medians, and plotting data and getting various curves and best straight lines.

In reality, math and science are one and the same. And physics is really “the same” as chemistry.

1. Science … including at a minimum … physics, chemistry, biology, physics lab, chemistry lab, biology lab. Mastery of the periodic table. Chemical reactions. Calculations for ballistics, energy, motion, acceleration … half-life calculations. Some kind of science fair so the students get the idea of how to do stuff. It’s tedious. “Some kind” of a project.

Good teachers can explain a whole terms work in one class; what I have found is that * most teachers drag out the work … job security? job protection? … Young students pick stuff up very very quickly. So there is no need for trig to take more than one class, for example. Sines and cosines can be explained in 15 minutes. [In one case, the students didn’t understand it, so I explained it at home and my child tutored the whole class during a ten minute break. It is made more difficult than it needs to be.]

What seems to be the case is that the teachers are barely one lesson ahead of the class, all too often.

What happens is that the students do not even receive the material … OR the study material is sooo dragged out, that the students zone out from boredom. You don’t have to wait for high school to introduce a lot of this stuff.

1. Writing … a LOT of writing … book reports, essays. Cribbing/borrowing the work of other people on-line does not qualify as writing. In my opinion, all writing should be done long-hand. It’s too easy to plagiarize the work of others, if comes spewing out of a computer.
2. Reading … a LOT of reading … articles, books, essays, various sources. Not just a subscription to the New York Times.

If the students do not have access to a public library with a 100,000 volume collection, then they need a good school library.

The point is that students need to be able to understand stuff.

Opinions don’t count for much.

My experience has been that too many high schools insist on things like “math tracks” … whereas in reality my experience is that all students can do well in all of these subjects in high school. Some will clearly do better than others, but there is no reason for anyone to be denied those classes.*

Check your state graduation requirements. Usually high school students are required to have 4 years of math, 3-4 science, 4 English, 3-4 history/civics and at least 2 years of foreign language. They then have a few slots for art, music, and other electives.

The teachers have a core curriculum they need to cover. The problem with beign bored needs to be solved by the child taking an honors or upper level class. Many parents though want all As and let the kids enroll in classes that are too easy. Then “super-smart” Sam gets bored and gets in trouble and it’s all the school’s fault.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Actually, kids CAN learn by osmosis … they learn music. They learn sports scores. They learn fan information about their favorite celebrities.

So, give them challenges with cash rewards so they can learn “boring” stuff from real life.

When you go to a store, ask the kids to help by writing down prices of items and adding up the list. Which items are the best price deal on a per ounce basis.

Have them keep track of how many miles per gallon your car gets. Just note the mileage on the odometer each time you fill up the tank. Keep track of miles traveled and gallons purchased.

On trips, let them keep track of how many miles and how many hours and minutes and calculate average speed. Let them follow along on a map.

[Leave the computer and the GPS behind.]

Take ten minutes and ask them to help you measure your house … length and width and calculate the area. Ask them to make a scale drawing.

Measure the length and width and height of your car. How much does it weigh? How much horsepower does it have? Compare with other cars. [Not a good or bad thing, just a comparison]

When your electric bill comes in, ask them to calculate the average kwh per day. Show them on the computer how to find the degree days and relate degree days to heating and cooling costs.

Ask them to graph the data.

Give them all your old electric and heating bills and make a data table and then graph the data.

If your town has droughts or floods, have the kids research previous such events and plot them on a time line. They can learn history AND physics at the same time.

We live in a world of math, but the kids are not encouraged to observe or learn the math.

All good ideas. And things that can be done even with elementary school kids. We need to make math and science more normal and less scary. If even the parents are talking about how much they hate math or how chemistry is so hard, then of course the kids are going to want to do something else.

 

[curlycool89]

And when your child graduates and gets his first job, will he complain to HR because his co-workers are from India, China, Japan, Germany and speak with an accent? Or perhaps speak Farsi at lunch and solve issues without his (name removed by moderator)ut?

I don’t think anyone would care which languages they speak or with which accent (one of my professors currently is German actually), as long as they are able to speak English fluently to you when you need to collaborate. I don’t care if he wants to solve problems in Koine Greek using Roman Numerals, but if he needs to explain it to me then he better be able to do it in English (preferably using arabic numerals).

This isn’t about racism or “English being superior” or anything like that. If you’re going to be in the US or Canada and are going to work or teach though, you should be able to speak with others in the primary language, which is English (or French in Quebec). Similarly, if you’re going to teach in the US or english Canada, you have to be able to teach fluently in the language of the majority, which is english (the exception is if it is a class explicitly stated to be in another language, such as “math in french”, or “history in spanish” or something).

Certainly the professor should have spoken English in class. But there is nothing wrong with a college professor expecting students to have read the textbook before coming to him with questions.

There is something wrong with refusing to help your students when you were the one not making sense in the first place in my opinion.

 

[karaleigh]

Apparently, because it’s too much work, and there’s no grade inflation.

economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/why-students-leave-the-engineering-track/?hp

My nephew, who graduated with an engineering degree and was hired even before graduation by a tech firm, sent me this link. Maybe it explains why the U.S. is falling behind in engineering graduates.

What, there’s homework?
What, you have to work really hard to get an A?

I think a strong possibility for the decline, is that the USA is nearly completely technological. Technos do every thing for us. We’ve left little room for our brains to figuratively work; meaning, to figure things out. Either the lesser degree, as considered to the greater.

With the ‘mind-worker’ demands and the lack for fashionable techno constructions, it is just a matter of waiting until we, as a society, grow out of the gadgets that have been created, and a new supply of interesting machinery becomes the vogue. Human brains simply have to evolve naturally. Really, what do we need right now from technology? I say, let’s relax. Let’s enjoy the gadgets we have. Ultimately, when nearly finish with the latest tinkering, technos, the demand will be for men and women to attend, complete, and compete in engineering fields. Then we’ll see the nation’s new engineers, and what they come up with.

 

[Catholic90]

And when your child graduates and gets his first job, will he complain to HR because his co-workers are from India, China, Japan, Germany and speak with an accent? Or perhaps speak Farsi at lunch and solve issues without his (name removed by moderator)ut?

Certainly the professor should have spoken English in class. But there is nothing wrong with a college professor expecting students to have read the textbook before coming to him with questions.

My son reads all his assignments before class. He made the Dean’s List this last semester, thank you very much. He is a smart student. When he does not understand something, he utilizes the professors’ office hours to get clarification. So when he does that, and the professor simply says, “Read the book,” it does nothing to help my son or any other student. What it does convey to my son is that the teacher really does not understand it either, since he obviously cannot explain it, and it caused the entire class to contact the Dean and aid in getting this professor removed from teaching.

I don’t think anyone would care which languages they speak or with which accent (one of my professors currently is German actually), as long as they are able to speak English fluently to you when you need to collaborate. I don’t care if he wants to solve problems in Koine Greek using Roman Numerals, but if he needs to explain it to me then he better be able to do it in English (preferably using arabic numerals).

This isn’t about racism or “English being superior” or anything like that. If you’re going to be in the US or Canada and are going to work or teach though, you should be able to speak with others in the primary language, which is English (or French in Quebec). Similarly, if you’re going to teach in the US or english Canada, you have to be able to teach fluently in the language of the majority, which is english (the exception is if it is a class explicitly stated to be in another language, such as “math in french”, or “history in spanish” or something).

There is something wrong with refusing to help your students when you were the one not making sense in the first place in my opinion.

Amen! The good news is enough students had this inferior professor (who had never taught before) and they raised such a stink that he is no longer teaching at the University.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Check your state graduation requirements. Usually high school students are required to have 4 years of math, 3-4 science, 4 English, 3-4 history/civics and at least 2 years of foreign language. They then have a few slots for art, music, and other electives.

The teachers have a core curriculum they need to cover. The problem with beign bored needs to be solved by the child taking an honors or upper level class. Many parents though want all As and let the kids enroll in classes that are too easy. Then “super-smart” Sam gets bored and gets in trouble and it’s all the school’s fault.

Something with this statement:

Usually high school students are required to have 4 years of math

doesn’t square with my experience.

Is the four year math requirement … does that include calculus?

I have witnessed high school graduates being unable to basic math … addition and multiplication.

Seems to me also, that world-wide surveys of student accomplishment put U.S. students down around 25th place in math.

 

[ProVobis]

Amen! The good news is enough students had this inferior professor (who had never taught before) and they raised such a stink that he is no longer teaching at the University.

Well, there you go. Can’t handle it, kick them all out and problem solved. No more bad accents. No more bad teachers. No more university.

Maybe try Phoenix online?

 

[ProVobis]

I have witnessed high school graduates being unable to basic math … addition and multiplication.

I don’t doubt it. With the advent of calculators, I haven’t heard anyone knowing how to do long-division or square root calculations anymore.

Even with slide-rules available, we still needed to do the basic math.