Why such a bias against homosexuals?

[melensdad]

Forgive me for not understanding, but why does it seem that so many folks here seem to be very hostile (or at least very biased) against homosexuals who want to be Catholic?

Now I understand that practicing homosexuality is considered a sin, and I support that. I also understand that practicing heterosexuality outside of the marriage union is also a sin, and I support that. So my thinking is in line with the Church teachings.

But it seems that many here are very quick to condemn homosexuals who want to join our Church. As we are sinners, should we not also welcome others who are sinners, who admit their sin, and who are trying to be good Catholics despite the sin?

I’m NOT advocating that we tolerate the radical homosexual agenda, that the Church change its position on homosexuality, gay marriage, or anything like that. I’m wondering why some members here at CA seem to be so intolerant of accepting gays who are trying to be good Catholics.

Just curious.

 

[Dale_M]

Forgive me for not understanding, but why does it seem that so many folks here seem to be very hostile (or at least very biased) against homosexuals who want to be Catholic?

That is actually a good question. I’ve noticed homosexuals who follow the Church’s teaching often get ripped into rather than being lauded for their courage, and listened to with respect. You can bet they don’t get a warm reception in the gay community. So why are so many CAF Catholics hard on our brothers and sisters?

I guess I am just repeating your question, Melensdad, but I figured it sounded better than simply typing “QFT”.

 

[melensdad]

You can bet they don’t get a warm reception in the gay community.

WOW that is a good point too. And I’m now ashamed I didn’t even consider it.

It just seems to me that we need to welcome them into our church in the same way we welcome in every other sinner, because that is all we are.

 

[Sir_Knight]

*If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death. If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.
*
*
*If a virtuous man turns away from virtue and does wrong when I place a stumbling block before him, he shall die. He shall die for his sin, and his virtuous deeds shall not be remembered; but I will hold you responsible for his death if you did not warn him. When, on the other hand, you have warned a virtuous man not to sin, and he has in fact not sinned, he shall surely live because of the warning, and you shall save your own life.

– Ezekiel 3:18-21
​

 

[iamscifimike]

I think the catechism expresses most beautifully our view of homosexual sin and the dignity to which homosexuals are to be held.

Homosexuality in the Catechism

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,1 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."2 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Perhaps these hostile members of the Church should be ecouraged to learn their faith. Misrepresentation has harmed us already too much.

 

[blessedtoo]

Forgive me for not understanding, but why does it seem that so many folks here seem to be very hostile (or at least very biased) against homosexuals who want to be Catholic?

.

I’ve been around these parts for a few years. I have never seen anyone discouraged from becoming Catholic because they are homosexual. Certainly not, as you allege, “many folks”.

Practicing homosexuals who come to CAF and state that they are Catholic are given the fraternal correction that we are obligated to offer. If debate ensues, we are responsible to uphold Catholic teaching and defend the truth. If it devolves into hostility, it is often due to the agressive and erroneous defense of sin on the part of the sinner. Such things occur on CAF regardless of what the sin is. Have you ever visited the threads on ABC vs. NFP? How about threads on abortion?

You’ve posted about this before but I think the bias you see is your own perception. This forum is equal opportunity in confronting unrepentent sinners.

There are also folks who just like to cause trouble, posters who persist in repeating the same old canards over and over that simply demand a response.

 

[Elric]

If it devolves into hostility, it is often due to the agressive and erroneous defense of sin on the part of the sinner. Such things occur on CAF regardless of what the sin is.

I have to call foul on this.

From what I have seen, it is usually the opposite of what you are suggesting and they can get quite nasty.

 

[Bennie_P]

Myself, I just wondered why there seems to such prejudice against the Church teachings and Catholics on this forum? Why so many people assume a person “hates” when in fact they are attempting to present the Church teachings and oppose erroneous ideas propagated by the “gay” rights movement. When one labels a thread “why such a bias against …?” One may have just be fallen into a trap -

Being one that particpates in many of the debates on the subject of homosexuality, I have found there is concerted effort by a few, to promote homosexuality as a normal and acceptable behavior on this forum and in no way are presenting themselves as persons of interest to coming into the Church. They make ever effort to derail honest debate of the subject & related subjects attempting to shout down the debate. Accusations of hate is one of the first things you hear as persons present the Church teachings on the subject. There might be some under the guise of being Christian, pro Church/“anti” homosexuality that also seem to try to bring honest discussion on the subject to a halt by spewing out something that is truly hateful - I tend to believe it may be actually someone working to present Christians and Catholics in ill light on the subject.

Personally I have no trouble with someone who struggles with SSA coming into the Church or staying in the Church, I have noticed that keeping persons with SSA in the Church is a much bigger problem. But I do have to challenge the idea that open homosexuality, ‘gay’ marriage, “gay” adoption, ‘gay’ rights, the ‘gay’ lifstyle should be acceptable. Discussion and presenting the truth on the subject is not being bias.

I have to agree with blessedtoo,

blessedtoo forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif “Such things occur on CAF regardless of what the sin is. Have you ever visited the threads on ABC vs. NFP? How about threads on abortion?”

Personally myself, I think people get wrong ideas about each other in these threads on this forum, they see heated debate as hate, when in fact it just happens to be passion.

CAF for me is a place to learn from others and practice my arguments on Church teachings on many subjects. So when I’m envanglizing in ‘real’ life, face to face, working with a troubled person on the street, at the work place or where ever God puts me, I will be able to do it with knowledge of truth, love and compassion.

 

[urban-hermit]

I am a homosexual who does his best to live according to Church teaching and nobody has ever been hostile to me on that score here at CAF … except other homosexuals, and pro-homosexual heterosexuals, who did NOT fully accept Church teaching with regard to chastity.

Just sharing my experience.

I think I understand the problem you are alluding to - homosexuals not feeling welcomed in the Catholic Church - but I do not believe the problem is bias against homosexuals. I was evangelized by Mother Angelica over the radio, at a time when I was not attending Mass, and had not attended in many years. I did not go back to Mass because I felt she had a soft spot for homosexuals. I went back to Mass because I decided I believed that the Catholic Church represented the true teachings of Jesus Christ, and I grudgingly realized that, unfair though I felt it was at the time, I would have to “knuckle under” to this “unjustice” in order to follow Him. It was at this point that the Holy Spirit could finally get past the obstinate doorman known as urban-hermit’s free will and gain admittance to my heart to begin sanctifying me.

It is hard to evangelize somebody who is living an actively homosexual life, because the unavoidable fact is that a Catholic who wants to be in a state of friendship with God (i.e., the state of grace - the ability to join God in heaven) must repent of that activity (i.e., stop acting out their homosexual desires). The overwhelming majority of actively homosexual Catholics that I have met over the years (myself included, although in the past tense) take offense when told or reminded of this reality.

In a nutshell, homosexuality is a stumbling block to salvation. There are good ways and bad ways to tell people that this is the case. There are good times and bad times to mention it. But to shield a homosexual person from this basic reality is not doing him or her any favors.

My opinion is that fervent prayer and a sort of tough love are the keys to evangelizing the homosexual. Kind of along the lines of 1 Corinthians 5.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I have to call foul on this.

From what I have seen, it is usually the opposite of what you are suggesting and they can get quite nasty.

Please cite your examples. It has been brought up that this is a perception issue and both sides see aggression in each other. It’s a thorny issue to charitably confront an unrepentant sinner. This thread could be a learning experience.

Please bring us quotes.

I know mods will lock threads for being uncharitable; I remember many warnings in the political threads I used to haunt, but I don’t recall that happening too often in threads where homosexual behaviour is condemned.

 

[Elric]

Please cite your examples. It has been brought up that this is a perception issue and both sides see aggression in each other. It’s a thorny issue to charitably confront an unrepentant sinner. This thread could be a learning experience.

Please bring us quotes.

I know mods will lock threads for being uncharitable; I remember many warnings in the political threads I used to haunt, but I don’t recall that happening too often in threads where homosexual behaviour is condemned.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=183458

Thats one you can look at, you might get the idea.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=181864

This one was quite interesting.

I do find it interesting that you seem to single me out, yet you didnt ask for cited examples from those who suggest the opposite of what I have.

I suppose that I might be one of those “trouble makers” that has been mentioned. But the funny thing is that I support a Cathloics right to believe that homosexuality is a sin (of course that support extends to the organisation), I dont agree with homosexuality and personally find it somewhat “distasteful”.

Yet I usually find myself on the side of homosexuality on these forums (one thread I was condemning what a homosexual did along with laws that were being enforced on cathloic organisations, towards the end I was on the other side of the debate).

 

[Alda]

Excellent post urban-hermit, thank you.

 

[blessedtoo]

Mr. Hermit,
Was hoping you’d pop in and give your witness! Praise the Lord!

 

[blessedtoo]

[
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=183458)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=183458[

Thats one you can look at, you might get the idea.
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=183458)

I read through the whole thread and saw absolutely nothing indicating hostility or bias. Nothing.

[
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=181864)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=181864[

This one was quite interesting.
](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=181864)

It would be helpful if you could link the individual post that you found hostile to homosexuals. Reading a 6 page thread to hunt for evidence is a bit time consuming.

I do find it interesting that you seem to single me out, yet you didnt ask for cited examples from those who suggest the opposite of what I have.

The OP has alleged there is a bias on the forums. You seem to concur. What “opposite” examples should we be demanding?

Yet I usually find myself on the side of homosexuality on these forums (one thread I was condemning what a homosexual did along with laws that were being enforced on cathloic organisations, towards the end I was on the other side of the debate).

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel the need to create controversy where none exists? If you are in agreement with Church teaching, what’s the problem?

 

[Elric]

Well if you couldnt see it, what else can I do?

The OP has alleged there is a bias on the forums. You seem to concur. What “opposite” examples should we be demanding?

Never mind.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you feel the need to create controversy where none exists? If you are in agreement with Church teaching, what’s the problem?

Create controversy?

What controversy would that be exactly?

The problem is the lengths that some people will go to opposing homosexuality.

Its one thing to be opposed to it, it another to think that its ok for someone to harrass a gay person in a public place or that there is some huge “gay agenda” that is trying to stomp on everyones rights.

 

[blessedtoo]

Its one thing to be opposed to it, it another to think that its ok for someone to harrass a gay person in a public place or that there is some huge “gay agenda” that is trying to stomp on everyones rights.

Don’t confuse the two.
It is clearly wrong and completely un-Christian to harrass ANYONE in a public place because of their race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. Where, on these forums, have you ever witnessed someone promoting such a thing?

There is a gay agenda. It is naive to think otherwise. Here are some statements from the gay community itself:

“The broadcast networks have a responsibility to replace ‘Will & Grace,’” Giuliano said. “Not only is a show like this good TV, but it can foster acceptance, dialogue and respect — and it’s the right thing to do. If the success of ‘Will & Grace’ proved anything, it’s that inclusion is good business.”

santacruzlive.com/ex/content/view/5602/147/

Satinover writes that Hooker’s work has helped the homosexual movement - in keeping with the Marxist theories from which it came - to convince judicial and legislative bodies such as the US Supreme Court that homosexuality comprises an oppressed “class” whose rights have been trampled by irrational prejudice.
Hooker’s work itself, however, was the product of a deliberate effort by homosexual activists to bring forward particular, pre-arranged outcomes, an approach that precludes scientific objectivity.

lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07071603.html

 

[drafdog]

People who oppose homosexuality do so largely because they do not understand the condition and its underlying causes, both physiological and psychological.
This forum is not the place to discuss the scientific evidence currently being offered that demonstrates a physical basis for same sex attraction as so few here have the requisite educational background to intelligently present and explain it or comment upon its validity. This is new and valuable research and deserves time for discussion and evaluation by the neuro-science community.

Matthew

 

[Delphinus85]

Forgive me for not understanding, but why does it seem that so many folks here seem to be very hostile (or at least very biased) against homosexuals who want to be Catholic?

Now I understand that practicing homosexuality is considered a sin, and I support that. I also understand that practicing heterosexuality outside of the marriage union is also a sin, and I support that. So my thinking is in line with the Church teachings.

But it seems that many here are very quick to condemn homosexuals who want to join our Church. As we are sinners, should we not also welcome others who are sinners, who admit their sin, and who are trying to be good Catholics despite the sin?

I’m NOT advocating that we tolerate the radical homosexual agenda, that the Church change its position on homosexuality, gay marriage, or anything like that. I’m wondering why some members here at CA seem to be so intolerant of accepting gays who are trying to be good Catholics.

Just curious.

I’m afraid I agree with you. It seems that sexual sin is sexual sin, and it’s all perversion of the sacred gift of sexuality. Whether it’s a cohabiting couple, a gay man, or a lesbian, and even a contracepting married couple (according to church law).

Jesus never asked anyone to change themselves before they came to him. We can’t ask a man to stop being gay, or a cohabiting couple to move apart before they can become catholic. They do, however, need to sek Jesus truly before they can recieve the sacraments, as all of us do. In the case of a cohabiting couple who want to follow Chist, but don’t have the money yet to live separate, we can ask them to live chastely until they can live apart (think of a couple who may have bought a house together, and have to wait for it to sell) but we have to be forgiving if that couple makes a mistake. Same with a gay guy. I may be in the minority in beliving that it is a struggle he can have his whole life, and can’t just turn it off, but he can be asked to live chastely to follow Christ. We have to forgive if he makes mistakes. Truth is, he’s no better than any of us. We are all sinners saved by the grace of our Lord, and we have to remember that so that we can deal with all people in love. Yes, to live as a christian requires a certain standard, but bigger than that standard is forgiveness when someone messes up and is truly repentant. Imagine having a church so forgiving that someone could stand up at the end of mass and say “I made a mistake and slept with another man, please help and forgive me so I don’t do this again” and the community comes around him and helps him. Imagine the strength we could have. Not to downplay the seriousness of his sin, but to pity him for his struggle, and help him.

 

[Bennie_P]

People who oppose homosexuality do so largely because they do not understand the condition and its underlying causes, both physiological and psychological.
This forum is not the place to discuss the scientific evidence currently being offered that demonstrates a physical basis for same sex attraction as so few here have the requisite educational background to intelligently present and explain it or comment upon its validity. This is new and valuable research and deserves time for discussion and evaluation by the neuro-science community.

Matthew

These is no credulable evidence about the physical basis for homosexulity. The few studies that have done have been have been proven to be lacking in proper scientific methods and validity and all have been made by self-proclaimed homosexual-bent- scientists trying to justify thier behavior. Psycological studies had been discouraged if not practically stopped, when the APA declared that homosexual behavior was not a mental disorder. something that was not done because of Scientific research, but pressure group politics.
But pointing this out should not considered bias, nor a prejudice.
Anyone that is seeking to come into the Church should be welcome. Most of the discussion in these threads on CAF on the subject of homosexuality and SSA are not about who is more right about who should be accepted into the Church, for we all have sinned and sin, but the morality and the acceptance of certain behviors as a normal and those behaviors should be accepted by the Church and/or society as normal with no need to seek conversion from, or repentance of those behaviors. A Catholic struggling from homosexual behaviors is the same as any other Catholic struggling with other sins. If you fail, you don’t demand the Church to change it’s teachings, you repent, do your penance and with the Grace of God you work toward holiness - we each have our cross to bear.

 

[RowBoat]

I don’t think it’s fair to say there is a bias against gays. It’s more accurate to say there is an imbalance in the attention given to various sins. For example, there are far more Catholics practicing ABC than homosexuality, yet there is a great difference degree of vocal opposition given to each.