Why such a bias against homosexuals?

[blessedtoo]

This is a great post and I appreciate it as there was a little cutie just one row in front of me today. But in another thread here on CAF there was a person who alleged that a female was a lesbian and wanted to prevent that person from taking communion. What I noticed in the thread was that homosexual relationships were somehow worse than unmarried heterosexual relationships where premarital sex is involved. I’ve seen similar bias in other threads. When I made my original post, I did not mean to imply that people here attack homosexuals who post in the threads, but it does seem to me that homosexuals are held to a higher standard of morality?

Not a higher standard. The same standard. But that standard is being neutralized more each day.

I am compelled to point out some should-be-obvious-to-everyone issues confronting out culture. Here are a few examples from recent weeks and the last few months:

The president of Iran comes to speak at Columbia. He is asked profoundly important questions about his position on Israel (wants to annihilate the Jews), his refusal to accept the Holocaust happened (says we need more evidence), his regime’s treatment of women (they’re happy as can be!), and his quest for nuclear weapons (but we’re a peaceful people!). What answer of his did the press cover relentlessly for 4 days (both liberal and conservative)? - the answer he gave about homosexuality in his country.

GLAAD recently issued a report stating that homosexuals are under-represented in television and film. Despite the fact that 3% of characters on screen are homosexual (and 4% of the population is said to be), GLAAD wants more gays on TV and film.

Bush recently considered a nominee for surgeon general who wrote a paper 15 years ago detailing the health risks of homosexual sex. A completely unbiased and strictly medical resport was shot down by gay activists as “homophobic”.

The push for same-sex marraige continues, despite the fact that the last three states it was tried in refused to grant the alleged “rights”.

So I ask you - who is obsessed? Personally, I would be quite content to never have to address this issue again. I would be very happy to go about my business were in not for the fact that nearly every traditional value upon which this country was based is being challenged.

 

[LSK]

I am a homosexual who does his best to live according to Church teaching and nobody has ever been hostile to me on that score here at CAF … except other homosexuals, and pro-homosexual heterosexuals, who did NOT fully accept Church teaching with regard to chastity.

Just sharing my experience.

I think I understand the problem you are alluding to - homosexuals not feeling welcomed in the Catholic Church - but I do not believe the problem is bias against homosexuals. I was evangelized by Mother Angelica over the radio, at a time when I was not attending Mass, and had not attended in many years. I did not go back to Mass because I felt she had a soft spot for homosexuals. I went back to Mass because I decided I believed that the Catholic Church represented the true teachings of Jesus Christ, and I grudgingly realized that, unfair though I felt it was at the time, I would have to “knuckle under” to this “unjustice” in order to follow Him. It was at this point that the Holy Spirit could finally get past the obstinate doorman known as urban-hermit’s free will and gain admittance to my heart to begin sanctifying me.

It is hard to evangelize somebody who is living an actively homosexual life, because the unavoidable fact is that a Catholic who wants to be in a state of friendship with God (i.e., the state of grace - the ability to join God in heaven) must repent of that activity (i.e., stop acting out their homosexual desires). The overwhelming majority of actively homosexual Catholics that I have met over the years (myself included, although in the past tense) take offense when told or reminded of this reality.

In a nutshell, homosexuality is a stumbling block to salvation. There are good ways and bad ways to tell people that this is the case. There are good times and bad times to mention it. But to shield a homosexual person from this basic reality is not doing him or her any favors.

My opinion is that fervent prayer and a sort of tough love are the keys to evangelizing the homosexual. Kind of along the lines of 1 Corinthians 5.

I think you are my hero - not because of the specific cross you bear, but because what you have written here can apply to a cross that any of us bears. thank you for what you have written and the excellent witness you give.

 

[melensdad]

Not a higher standard. The same standard. But that standard is being neutralized more each day.

I am compelled to point out some should-be-obvious-to-everyone issues confronting out culture. Here are a few examples from recent weeks and the last few months:

The president of Iran comes to speak at Columbia. He is asked profoundly important questions about his position on Israel (wants to annihilate the Jews), his refusal to accept the Holocaust happened (says we need more evidence), his regime’s treatment of women (they’re happy as can be!), and his quest for nuclear weapons (but we’re a peaceful people!). What answer of his did the press cover relentlessly for 4 days (both liberal and conservative)? - the answer he gave about homosexuality in his country.

GLAAD recently issued a report stating that homosexuals are under-represented in television and film. Despite the fact that 3% of characters on screen are homosexual (and 4% of the population is said to be), GLAAD wants more gays on TV and film.

Bush recently considered a nominee for surgeon general who wrote a paper 15 years ago detailing the health risks of homosexual sex. A completely unbiased and strictly medical resport was shot down by gay activists as “homophobic”.

The push for same-sex marraige continues, despite the fact that the last three states it was tried in refused to grant the alleged “rights”.
**
So I ask you - who is obsessed? Personally, I would be quite content to never have to address this issue again. I would be very happy to go about my business were in not for the fact that nearly every traditional value upon which this country was based is being challenged.**

I’m sorry but you seem to have missed the point completely. I am talking about the CAF not the world in general. I’m talking about welcoming gays into our Church and our local parish with open arms and asking them to embrace our teachings.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with those things which you cite as examples, but they are certainly obvious issues for the world.

But your very last paragraph illustrates, in a subtle way, your clear bias against gays. The gays here, those few who have identified themselves, are NOT bashing the traditional values or challenging every traditional value that this country was based upon. You are the one who makes that claim. If I were gay and Catholic, I’d say your last paragraph were offensive because you are making some broadstroke claims that do not seem to be true with the homosexual community that desires to live a good Catholic life. I don’t see Catholics here who have SSA striving to dismantle the church and push their agenda down our throats. They are trying to live chaste lives and follow Christ. But they seem to get lumped into the same group as the ‘radical’ gays and your post clearly illustrates that.

 

[Bennie_P]

I am a homosexual who does his best to live according to Church teaching and nobody has ever been hostile to me on that score here at CAF … except other homosexuals, and pro-homosexual heterosexuals, who did NOT fully accept Church teaching with regard to chastity.

Just sharing my experience.

I think I understand the problem you are alluding to - homosexuals not feeling welcomed in the Catholic Church - but I do not believe the problem is bias against homosexuals. I was evangelized by Mother Angelica over the radio, at a time when I was not attending Mass, and had not attended in many years. I did not go back to Mass because I felt she had a soft spot for homosexuals. I went back to Mass because I decided I believed that the Catholic Church represented the true teachings of Jesus Christ, and I grudgingly realized that, unfair though I felt it was at the time, I would have to “knuckle under” to this “unjustice” in order to follow Him. It was at this point that the Holy Spirit could finally get past the obstinate doorman known as urban-hermit’s free will and gain admittance to my heart to begin sanctifying me.

It is hard to evangelize somebody who is living an actively homosexual life, because the unavoidable fact is that a Catholic who wants to be in a state of friendship with God (i.e., the state of grace - the ability to join God in heaven) must repent of that activity (i.e., stop acting out their homosexual desires). The overwhelming majority of actively homosexual Catholics that I have met over the years (myself included, although in the past tense) take offense when told or reminded of this reality.

In a nutshell, homosexuality is a stumbling block to salvation. There are good ways and bad ways to tell people that this is the case. There are good times and bad times to mention it. But to shield a homosexual person from this basic reality is not doing him or her any favors.

My opinion is that fervent prayer and a sort of tough love are the keys to evangelizing the homosexual. Kind of along the lines of 1 Corinthians 5.

I think you say it all in a nutshell -

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t see Catholics here who have SSA striving to dismantle the church and push their agenda down our throats. They are trying to live chaste lives and follow Christ. But they seem to get lumped into the same group as the ‘radical’ gays and your post clearly illustrates that.

Hi melensdad,

Keep in mind, that we don’t just have Catholics with SSA on the CAF. Most of the “gay” threads also have non-Catholics and non-Christians with SSA who are living a gay lifestyle and do not accept Catholic teaching. I think we are right to point out that they are wrong.

For the few with SSA who are living chaste lives, I have seen a lot of love and support from the majority of posters. The only contentious posts seem to be when they have a need to defend the gay community, including gay marriage, despite their Catholic beliefs.

I would agree that there are a couple of posters who are a little over-the-top regarding homosexual issues, but I think it is only a few. So, when it comes to lumping people into a group, you might want to consider your original post. I don’t think “many” is an apt description.

Pax,
Robert

 

[blessedtoo]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with those things which you cite as examples, but they are certainly obvious issues for the world.

I was attempting to demonstrate the culture’s aggressive efforts to normalize homosexual behavior. This is certainly reflected in our Church as a whole. There is much confusion within Catholic communities about what the Church position on homosexual behavior is exactly, which can be clearly illustrated here:
americansfortruth.com/news/protest-most-holy-redeemer-marching-in-shameful-san-fran-gay-pride-parade.html

But your very last paragraph illustrates, in a subtle way, your clear bias against gays. The gays here, those few who have identified themselves, are NOT bashing the traditional values or challenging every traditional value that this country was based upon.

If that were true, I would have to be biased against myself, my sister, and all my friends from my past life. Hardly seems possible.

When you’ve been around a few years and have seen the persistance of those who would come to CAF to confront Catholics just for the sake of argument then perhaps you will reconsider your position. The number of folks who come to CAF to defend homosexual behavior outnumbers those who walk with the Church on this issue, unfortunately. I know because I have personally reached out to those who strive to follow a life of chastity, encouraging them one on one and sharing my own private story.

You are the one who makes that claim. If I were gay and Catholic, I’d say your last paragraph were offensive because you are making some broadstroke claims that do not seem to be true with the homosexual community that desires to live a good Catholic life. I don’t see Catholics here who have SSA striving to dismantle the church and push their agenda down our throats. They are trying to live chaste lives and follow Christ. But they seem to get lumped into the same group as the ‘radical’ gays and your post clearly illustrates that.

I would say the “broadstrokes” are coming from you, my friend. You’ve made accusations here with nothing to back them up. As someone who has struggled with SSA, and as someone who is currently “reaching out” to family and friends still in the lifestyle, I can assure you that I am keenly aware of the difference between the “radicals” and those who are trying to lead a chaste life in keeping with Church teaching.

I encourage you to spend some time searching CAF threads for evidence that “many of us” are wicked harsh on chaste homosexual Catholics who want to join the Church. Expecially my posts. Please post what you find.

 

[melensdad]

I was attempting to demonstrate the culture’s aggressive efforts to normalize homosexual behavior. . .

Right, I understood that is what you were doing. It also has nothing to do with the thread.

I encourage you to spend some time searching CAF threads for evidence that “many of us” are wicked harsh on chaste homosexual Catholics who want to join the Church. Expecially my posts. Please post what you find.

I did cite the example of the thread about the lesbian and communion. That was a thread here recently. It is just one of the examples that I have seen that prompted this topic.

 

[blessedtoo]

I did cite the example of the thread about the lesbian and communion. That was a thread here recently.

And that’s what led you to conclude:

But it seems that many here are very quick to condemn homosexuals who want to join our Church.

Doesn’t seem very fair.

 

[melensdad]

Doesn’t seem very fair.

It does, based on various PM’s I’ve gotten thanking me for starting this thread, however seem to be accurate.

And it is not just in the one thread that I’ve noticed the bias.

If you disagree with my conclusion, that is fine, I think we just will agree to disagree. But it sure appears to me that some here don’t want to admit homosexuals into our Church community and I was simply asking why, but certainly was not suggesting we invite homosexuals in who push a sinful lifestyle. It seems to me we have a problem here with the “pot calling the kettle black” type of scenario. Again, if you don’t see it then I’m OK with that too.

 

[blessedtoo]

But in another thread here on CAF there was a person who alleged that a female was a lesbian and wanted to prevent that person from taking communion.

BTW: this was the appropriate Catholic counsel that was offered to the “lesbian” who posted. Someone who is in a state of mortal sin should not take Communion.

Any other examples?

 

[melensdad]

BTW: this was the appropriate Catholic counsel that was offered to the “lesbian” who posted. Someone who is in a state of mortal sin should not take Communion.

Clearly you are not reading carefully what I wrote. The lesbian did not post. The thread was about a lesbian. The entire thread was basically about someone who wanted to inform the priest that this person was a lesbian and was taking communion. There was no proof given that she was a practicing lesbian or that she was in a state of mortal sin. It was mostly supposition and rumor and nothing concrete. And yes, I did state that I had seen other examples in other threads that showed bias.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Right, I understood that is what you were doing. It also has nothing to do with the thread.

I did cite the example of the thread about the lesbian and communion. That was a thread here recently. It is just one of the examples that I have seen that prompted this topic.

There is a patron saint of handguns? How awefully bizarre. This must be a joke?

 

[melensdad]

THIS SEEMS TOTALLY OFF TOPIC BUT I WILL ADDRESS IT:

There is a patron saint of handguns? How awefully bizarre. This must be a joke?

Not officially a patron Saint yet, but there is an organization working toward it, if you follow the link you will be taken to their webpage.

Not sure why it is bizarre. There are patron saints of all sorts of things. This particular Saint used a handgun to ward off aggressors. There are many Saints who were defenders of others, this one was not a warrior Saint, but rather a priest who was protecting his town. I do know of priests who currently carry guns and have valid concealed carry permits to carry guns in public.

Let’s not forget that the CCC does require us to defend our own lives and makes it a grave duty to defend the lives of those in our care.

 

[Bennie_P]

THIS SEEMS TOTALLY OFF TOPIC BUT I WILL ADDRESS IT:

Not officially a patron Saint yet, but there is an organization working toward it, if you follow the link you will be taken to their webpage.

Not sure why it is bizarre. There are patron saints of all sorts of things. This particular Saint used a handgun to ward off aggressors. There are many Saints who were defenders of others, this one was not a warrior Saint, but rather a priest who was protecting his town. I do know of priests who currently carry guns and have valid concealed carry permits to carry guns in public.

Let’s not forget that the CCC does require us to defend our own lives and makes it a grave duty to defend the lives of those in our care.

Couldn’t resist could You.

 

[agangbern]

Now I understand that practicing homosexuality is considered a sin, and I support that. I also understand that practicing heterosexuality outside of the marriage union is also a sin, and I support that. So my thinking is in line with the Church teachings.

But it seems that many here are very quick to condemn homosexuals who want to join our Church. As we are sinners, should we not also welcome others who are sinners, who admit their sin, and who are trying to be good Catholics despite the sin?

I’m NOT advocating that we tolerate the radical homosexual agenda, that the Church change its position on homosexuality, gay marriage, or anything like that. I’m wondering why some members here at CA seem to be so intolerant of accepting gays who are trying to be good Catholics.

Just curious.

I am curious too of your curiosity. You seem to classify homosexuals into “practicing” and “non-practicing” homosexuals or “radical” and “non-radical” homosexuals. What is the difference between practicing and non-practicing homosexuals or radical and non-radical homosexuals? Is there really a difference?

 

[melensdad]

I am curious too of your curiosity. You seem to classify homosexuals into “practicing” and “non-practicing” homosexuals or “radical” and “non-radical” homosexuals. What is the difference between practicing and non-practicing homosexuals or radical and non-radical homosexuals? Is there really a difference?

Let me ask you, is there a difference between a wanton slut and a chaste woman? Obviously there is. One lives a life of debauchery and the other lives a life of chastity. Men can sleep around with whatever whore they happen to find in a bar, or they can remain chaste and look for the one woman who will become their life partner and wife.

The same sort of thought can be applied to those who have homosexual tendencies. There is no reason to assume that someone with same sex attraction is a pervert who will abuse children, etc.

We have many members here who have same sex attraction. They live a chaste life, or at least try to live one in the same way that heterosexuals here try to live chaste lives. They do not march in the “gay pride” parades dressed in nothing but a thong and high heel hooker shoes. They do not petition our TV networks for more “gay” characters on prime time TV shows. They do not push our school systems to introduce books titled “My 2 Daddies”

 

[blessedtoo]

Clearly you are not reading carefully what I wrote. The lesbian did not post. The thread was about a lesbian. The entire thread was basically about someone who wanted to inform the priest that this person was a lesbian and was taking communion. There was no proof given that she was a practicing lesbian or that she was in a state of mortal sin. It was mostly supposition and rumor and nothing concrete. And yes, I did state that I had seen other examples in other threads that showed bias.

I QUOTED exactle what you posted:

But in another thread here on CAF there was a person who alleged that a female was a lesbian and wanted to prevent that person from taking communion.

You did not elaborate until now.

I participated in that thread. First, it was not a homosexual who wanted to be Catholic asking this question. It was someone who was concerned about whether he was obligated to inform the priest of potential sacrilidge against the Eucharist.

I know of a person who attends my parish (and is also a coworker of mine) who is a lesbian and is in a relationship with a woman. I saw her receiving communion at Mass yesterday. Correct me if I’m wrong, but a homosexual should not be receiving communion. My wife did not go up to receive yesterday, only because she had missed Mass last week and did not yet get to confession. Yet I see a practicing homosexual receiving the body and blood of our Lord.
In my opinion, this should be reported to our parish priest, if not the bishop.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=172948

There were many responses to this question, most of which decried the poster’s assumption that the alleged “lesbian” was, in fact, committing sacrilidge by receiving communion. I would encourage folks to read the thread themselves because it is a poor illustration of what you call “bias against homosexuals.”

And yes, I did state that I had seen other examples in other threads that showed bias.

Yes, I know you said that. I would like to see other examples besides the one you provided since that one hardly shows evidence of your claim that:

many here are very quick to condemn homosexuals who want to join our Church.

If you disagree with my conclusion, that is fine, I think we just will agree to disagree. But it sure appears to me that some here don’t want to admit homosexuals into our Church community and I was simply asking why,

Sorry. You’ve alleged something quite serious in your OP. Not only is this a perception Catholics must face out in the secular world, but apparently now, there is confusion among Catholics themselves. If one makes an allegation, they should be able to provide ample evidence for their claim, especially when the allegation is so weighty.

 

[melensdad]

Sorry. You’ve alleged something quite serious in your OP. Not only is this a perception Catholics must face out in the secular world, but apparently now, there is confusion among Catholics themselves. If one makes an allegation, they should be able to provide ample evidence for their claim, especially when the allegation is so weighty.

Again we disagree. And I will not share with you the support that I have gotten via PMs regarding this thread. I do not feel obligated to put up examples that were shared with me in confidence. I understand your opinion, I simply disagree with it.

But if you want further evidence that there is at least some confusion and bias, simply look 2 posts up from your post to the question posed to me. Does that not show at least a level of confusion on this issue or lack of understanding when someone asks*** “is there really a difference?”*** Further there are posts in this very thread linking pedophiles to gays as if the 2 are one in the same, does that not also show some level of bias, confusion, and lack of understanding? BTW, no need to answer me, it is a rhetorical question.

 

[agangbern]

The same sort of thought can be applied to those who have homosexual tendencies. There is no reason to assume that someone with same sex attraction is a pervert who will abuse children, etc.

We have many members here who have same sex attraction.

Please bear with me. I am still curious. Just what do you mean by
“homosexual tendencies” and “same sex attraction”? What is that attraction? Attraction of what?

 

[blessedtoo]

Again we disagree. And I will not share with you the support that I have gotten via PMs regarding this thread. I do not feel obligated to put up examples that were shared with me in confidence. I understand your opinion, I simply disagree with it.

I’m not interested in your PM’s. You started this thread alleging that many people hold a bias against homosexuals who want to belong to the Catholic Church and follow Church teaching. I assume the PM’s came AFTER you started the thread. I am interested in how you drew your conclusion based on evidence available to us all.

But if you want further evidence that there is at least some confusion and bias, simply look 2 posts up from your post to the question posed to me. Does that not show at least a level of confusion on this issue or lack of understanding when someone asks*** “is there really a difference?”***

No. I read the posts as they are written. This post was a question:

I am curious too of your curiosity. You seem to classify homosexuals into “practicing” and “non-practicing” homosexuals or “radical” and “non-radical” homosexuals. What is the difference between practicing and non-practicing homosexuals or radical and non-radical homosexuals? Is there really a difference?

How do you read bias into that? Perhaps you are looking for bias? (No need to answer that-rhetorical.)

Further there are posts in this very thread linking pedophiles to gays as if the 2 are one in the same, does that not also show some level of bias, confusion, and lack of understanding? BTW, no need to answer me, it is a rhetorical question.

You have again mischaracterized someone’s post. Here is the ONLY post referring to pedolphilia:

Temptations are sinful like a pediphile even though he might not molest again what about his attraction to children? Is not that still sinful?

And here is the response to that confused poster:

Temptation is not sin.

I am persisting because this is not the first time you’ve alleged bias on these forums.

Why are so many people here (seemingly) judging those who are gay and Catholic when each of us is also a sinner in so many other ways?

Lighten up and show a more Christian attitude.

For those of us who feel called to minister to those with SSA, it is important that we call attention to the tendency of people to call “bias”. If you really had any idea how difficult it is to reach out to those who are still in darkness, who are confused about the Church teaching on homosexuality, who resist, at all costs, the suggestion of chastity, who perceive Christian efforts as “hate”, you would be very very careful about using language as you have on these forums.