Why the bias against medium to large families?

[hannajomar]

Some people are only “pro-choice” when it comes to abortion. It’s a backward world when a woman who chooses to abort her unborn baby is seen as some kind of hero, and parents who want to welcome all the children God wants to give them are seen as selfish or insane.

 

[SeaShoreGirl]

The op has an obligation to his wife (who is in need) and his children already born. While it’s none of the grocer’s busniess, words of a priest, psycologist and doctor should be taken into account. There is a woman on here to which a second pregnancy would be deadly. A few years ago there was a woman who had to stop after 5. It is VERY appropriate for some professionals to say “enough”

We are also able to overcome certian diseases that would of caused death…one of the reasons people had big families in the past. Of my friend’s 5 kids 3 have serious problems. 1 has a nut allergy…its very hard to maintain when there’s 7 people in the house. Numerous trips to the ER. Even 20 years ago he would of been dead by now. 1 requires occupational therepy. She’s normal, mostly, but 100 years ago would of been a deaf cripple going blind. Yet another has yet-to-be diagnosed learning problems. 100 years ago he could of forgotton school and just learned a trade. Today he needs alot of help. Homeschooling…because he needs a large amount of attenttion…may be out of the question.

So bully for you if you were able to produce 9+ healthy kids. (or special needs ones younger so they had sibiling help) In todays’ world its a rarity.

 

[bearkatjen]

Some people are only “pro-choice” when it comes to abortion. It’s a backward world when a woman who chooses to abort her unborn baby is seen as some kind of hero, and parents who want to welcome all the children God wants to give them are seen as selfish or insane.

I don’t know a single pro-choice person (and I know lots of pro-choice people), who considers a woman a “hero” for choosing abortion. All of the pro-choice people I know fall into two camps, they either don’t judge that woman, or they are disappointed in the woman’s choice.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

My daughter and I watched the original “cheaper by the dozen” from 1950 over the weekend. The story is set in the 1920’s…and in the story, people are often making remarks to the father about having so many children. I thought of this thread…

The best scene involved the whole family piled into their open-top automobile, pulling up to a Stop sign. At the bus stop, a crowd is waiting. A man at the stop says, “hey, Noah…what are you doing with that Ark?”. And the dad responds, “Collecting animals like the Good Lord told me to. All we need now is a jackass: Hop in!”

My daughter and I laughed and laughed! The funny comeback is still the best response to those people! My favorite response, read in another thread on this site: “we decided we’ll stop as soon as we get an ugly one!”

 

[anp1215]

My story is long, but the gist of it is that my wife and I are at a serious cross roads on how to move forward with respect to children. She is suffering from a mental illness and cannot get pregnant right now, so the only 100% way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. Apparently by putting her health ahead of any of our other physical desires, I am not showing that I love her - according to a counselor we saw tonight.

Anyways one big issue that I have is society’s view of what a family size should be. We currently have 4 children, I have said I would have more. After the learning curve of the first 3, the fourth has been a lot easier, I feel significantly more confident as a parent and feel that I could handle more.

My apologies for the rant, but why is it that so many people stick their noses in and say “four is a lot”, “more than enough”, “why would you want more”, “how do you think you will be able to afford them”, etc. It is just so frustrating, because not only can I afford them, it doesn’t seem to be anyone else’s business.

All her friends tell her four is enough/crazy. Doctor, four is enough. People on the street, four is enough/crazy. Society in general, four is crazy. Counsellors, four is enough/crazy. Seriously? Why do people have such an aversion to larger families.

Do you know how much university will cost, they ask. My response is, well, yes, and in fact according to the calculations made by my bank, my contribution rates are sufficient to cover a significant portion. Will they most likely have to hold down part time/summer jobs - yes. But is the value of having more family/best friends/confidants greater than the costs - I would say so.

The people who compliment are far and few between, but I value those compliments much more than any naysayers opinion. When the naysayers comment on how difficult it is, they are usually shocked when I say that four is no big deal and that they are generally well behaved. Routine, predictability good listening skills as well as being able to evaluate and react calmly on the fly along with love go a long way to raising kids properly.

I work part time at a grocery store (second job/an evening out of the house per week/a little extra money) and the other day saw a dad shopping with his 5 kids. I thought it was beautiful to see, and did have a little envy at the fact that he did have 5 and I will likely never see that number.

Anyways, this is just a rant. I am so frustrated by so many people sending the message that four children is such a crazy/difficult thing. My wife always hears this and has bought into it so much that sometimes it’s like 4 kids is worse than managing an entire army. I am a teacher, so managing 25 all day, then coming home to 4 makes it seem so much easier.

Simple answer: The world tells us children are a burden and not a blessing. Good thing we are not of the world.

I can sympathize with some of what you’re going through. My wife’s pregnant for the sixth time and we are avoiding a large portion of my family due to how terribly they treated us during her last two pregnancies (including a miscarriage).

I think there’s a lot of reasons for the prejudice against large families. On the one hand, you have the zero-population-growth mentality that believes there’s no way the planet can cope with more people. Another related issue is the contraceptive, pro-death mentality that is so prominent now. Children are a burden; pregnancy is a disease. Voluntarily putting yourself through either is not only selfish, but borderline insane.

However, the biggest issue I see (just personal experience) is the overwhelming selfishness of the current crop of 18-40 year olds. The 70’s may have been called the “me decade,” but I think that period can’t hold a candle to what’s going on now. Partying, traveling, buying the biggest, latest toys and satisfying whatever other wants and cravings come along are all far more important than acting responsibly, getting married, settling down and meeting all the other traditional benchmarks of adulthood. So many of the people I know are in a state of perpetual adolescence that I often wonder how they’re able to hold down a job. We quit hanging out with some friends because we don’t drink anymore, and we don’t want our kids exposed to their weekly binges (and, unlike them, I wouldn’t think it was cute to see my daughters doing an imitation of me drunk). We know people our age who don’t have kids, but who do camp out to buy the latest big video game. We have one friend who has spent her entire pregnancy complaining about how she can’t wait to have that “thing” out of her so she can get drunk again. Another acquaintance didn’t want to try having a baby until she had checked everything off her “bucket list.” She’s now hitting 40 and has spent upwards of $30,000 on unsuccessful fertility treatments over the last few years. But, hey, at least she’s been to Paris. These same people criticize us because we don’t have the latest video game systems, don’t give our kids unrestricted TV & internet access, do teach our kids manners, don’t let them act vulgar or inappropriately, take them to Mass and send them to Catholic schools; and most of all, because we have so darn many of them.

Well said.

Some people are only “pro-choice” when it comes to abortion. It’s a backward world when a woman who chooses to abort her unborn baby is seen as some kind of hero, and parents who want to welcome all the children God wants to give them are seen as selfish or insane.

I know :banghead::banghead:

 

[SteveGC]

“Collecting animals like the Good Lord told me to. All we need now is a jackass: Hop in!”

“we decided we’ll stop as soon as we get an ugly one!”

 

[ajaffres]

Don’t I know it, I get a lot of those comments and we only have 3. Three boys. People say, wow, you have your hands full! Homeschooling has been the best blessing for us since many families that homeschool have larger families.
I never felt that I was giving less to my boys than those who have 1 child. I rarely need to organize ‘play dates’ because the boys are content with each other. We attend many social events and yes, I limit the kids on their extra-curricular activities compared to my friends who have only 1 child. (Many of them live with their mother and grow up with no Dad to speak of.) Learning that money doesn’t grow on trees, it not a bad thing. Teaching teens that they may have to contribute to their post secondary education by working in the summer and part-time during the school year and perhaps stay home instead to living in a dorm where young adult party, drink and are prone to pre-marital sex every weekend, may also be a blessing. Statistics also show, that the industry needs to produce more tradesmen/women then university graduates. How many university graduates do you know end up working in retail with not marketable skills?
In your case, your wife is not in a condition to have more children, things might change. I would have loved to have more children, but not my husband. I have learned recently to put relationships in perspective. My number one relationship should be with God, secondly with my husband and thirdly with the children.
Four is a beautiful number, you are not crazy. Enjoy your family, if a fifth is part of God’s plan, he will let you know when you wife is better.

 

[GraceDK]

I think its sad that some of the only times where I see child abuse in the news in my country its comitted by people who have many children. For some people having many babies is part of not taking responsibility… We have a case like that running in the news right now. That coupled with the historical fact that women have often had more children than they had energy for because the man was ‘the leader’ and didn’t wanna give up sex… well I think these things play into public prejudize.
If you see a really big family, you look at these kids to see if they are well mentally stimulated by both parents etc…

In the environment where I now live there are some large Christian families. These people are wonderful but sometimes there are children all over the place tearing plants out of the ground, making a lot of noise and drawing on the walls, and their parents are nowhere in sight. This makes the neighbours go crazy… and prejudize thrive when such things keep happening.

I think that people of this generation generelly have trouble being disciplinarian… when you have guests with one or two kids even, those kids can destroy all reasonable conversation, you see them yelling and slapping their parents… and if there are many of these kids you start to get irritated… I think its natural. So people need to raise their children well.

I don’t think having many kids is bad, what I do not like is father-less homes where the dads work all the time and never see their children, however they might rationalize this behaviour. A healthy home is not made up by a stay at home mom and 10 children who never see their dad… Or homes where little kids, especially girls, are asked to help the mommy out all the time so they don’t have the freedom to play and be children.

Can people follow these thoughts?

 

[ajaffres]

In the environment where I now live there are some large Christian families. These people are wonderful but sometimes there are children all over the place tearing plants out of the ground, making a lot of noise and drawing on the walls, and their parents are nowhere in sight. This makes the neighbours go crazy… and prejudize thrive when such things keep happening.

I think that people of this generation generelly have trouble being disciplinarian… when you have guests with one or two kids even, those kids can destroy all reasonable conversation, you see them yelling and slapping their parents… and if there are many of these kids you start to get irritated… I think its natural. So people need to raise their children well.

I don’t think having many kids is bad, what I do not like is father-less homes where the dads work all the time and never see their children, however they might rationalize this behaviour. A healthy home is not made up by a stay at home mom and 10 children who never see their dad… Or homes where little kids, especially girls, are asked to help the mommy out all the time so they don’t have the freedom to play and be children.

Can people follow these thoughts?

As Catholics we are called to responsible parenthood, it is not better to be an irresponsible parent of 1,2,3 or more. When a woman gets pregnant, she should be rejoicing, not feeling like lab rat. Vatican II is very clear on this matter. I unfortunately do not have the document on hand to quote it personally. Those families you are referring to are possibly not Catholic and may receive different teachings in that regards.

Teaching kids to pitch in around the house (not just the girls) is a great way to eventually prepare them to take care of their own home later in life. A balance between academics, play and learning life skills are important.

 

[Brendan]

We all can’t have large families though. I mean if one family has 12 children, then their children have 12 children each, and then there children have 12 children…and so on, somewhere along the line there is a point at which that the population exceeds the resources (food and water) needed to sustain them in a comfortable life. Therefore does society not have a right to be judgemental?

Your statement conveys a lack of understanding of the creative role of God and His omniscience.

Remember that the couple are participatory in the creation of a new human person, but God is the primary actor. It is only by a positive act of His Will that a new soul is created. It is not something that God merely allows to happen, but something God does.

As such, it can only be for our good that a child is created.

In addition, God has a much better understanding of what the natural resources are, and how many humans He can support via the fruits of the Earth than we do.

Ergo, there can NEVER be more people on the Earth than God desires there to be. In fact, throught the scourge of abortion and other forms of murder, there are most certainly fewer people than God desired to be alive today.

So that couple that you mentioned, and their children, and their children’s children, can only have as many offspring as God desires there to be and whom God speciically created there to be.

 

[GraceDK]

As Catholics we are called to responsible parenthood, it is not better to be an irresponsible parent of 1,2,3 or more. When a woman gets pregnant, she should be rejoicing, not feeling like lab rat. Vatican II is very clear on this matter. I unfortunately do not have the document on hand to quote it personally.***** Those families you are referring to are possibly not Catholic***** and may receive different teachings in that regards.

Yes they are

Teaching kids to pitch in around the house (not just the girls) is a great way to eventually prepare them to take care of their own home later in life. A balance between academics, play and learning life skills are important.

Indeed, but this should be done in moderation.

 

[ajaffres]

It still boils down to responsible parenthood. The problems you are talking about would be present whether those people had a small or large family. It is like any incidence, you can’t judge something just by the people you know. We would need empirical evidence supporting that this kind of behavior is linked to large families before asserting it. I do not have any to prove either way. I have found though in my personal experience, that poor behavior from kids tend to happen more often in single parent families or in families where both parents are not directly involved with their children.

 

[Halo]

I think it is wonderful that Pope Benedict, last week spoke out encouraging people to have larger families. I know several large families, have one myself and we all seem to be doing just fine. We have been open to the life that God wanted to give us and we are all content and not in need nor want.

 

[ryecroft]

It’s wonderrful that you are so happy with four kids! I think you’ve already gotten your answers to “why” it’s not a popular situation in the “western” world for most. You’re right - unless someone else is going to have to support these children - it’s no business of theirs-only yours, your wife, God and possibly the other kids in the family. But from your post, it sounded like it was you who wanted to have a fifth child. How does your wife feel about it? Does she want a fifth when she gets better? Or does she feel that she’s worn out from the four you already have? Does she feel the same way that you do, that it’s been fairly easy as far as work load to add the fourth? I don’t even know when her last pregnancy was, but how does she feel about possibly being pregnant again. I’m sure you’ve spoken with her about all these things, I just havn’t read about them on this thread. If she’s well enough for a fifth and she’s 100% on board with trying and having a fifth when her health improves, then that’s wonderful. Not to be rude, but please make sure that she’s as on board with having a fifth as you are.
God Bless
Rye

 

[ajaffres]

It’s wonderrful that you are so happy with four kids! I think you’ve already gotten your answers to “why” it’s not a popular situation in the “western” world for most. You’re right - unless someone else is going to have to support these children - it’s no business of theirs-only yours, your wife, God and possibly the other kids in the family. But from your post, it sounded like it was you who wanted to have a fifth child. How does your wife feel about it? Does she want a fifth when she gets better? Or does she feel that she’s worn out from the four you already have? Does she feel the same way that you do, that it’s been fairly easy as far as work load to add the fourth? I don’t even know when her last pregnancy was, but how does she feel about possibly being pregnant again. I’m sure you’ve spoken with her about all these things, I just havn’t read about them on this thread. If she’s well enough for a fifth and she’s 100% on board with trying and having a fifth when her health improves, then that’s wonderful. Not to be rude, but please make sure that she’s as on board with having a fifth as you are.
God Bless
Rye

Of course her health needs to be the primary concern since she is the one possible at home caring for the entire family. If her health permits, why in the world would she ever deny her husband life? It is not simply about desiring a child or not it is about having serious reasons not to welcome life that warrants limiting life to a family. In this case, her health is a serious reason to delay new life.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

A healthy home is not made up by a stay at home mom and 10 children who never see their dad… Or homes where little kids, especially girls, are asked to help the mommy out all the time so they don’t have the freedom to play and be children.

Can people follow these thoughts?

I always take issue with this argument, mainly because my wife & I have been hearing it for years. Granted, the people who make it are seldom if ever in our house and have no idea what sort of chores are kids are expected to perform, but that doesn’t stop them from criticizing the way we are “stealing” their childhood and not letting them play, socialize, etc. Our son is 21 and his regular chores consist of mowing the lawn, taking the trash out and emptying the dishwasher. We’ll occasionally ask him to help with other chores as well, but those are the only set, regular chores for a legal adult who doesn’t pay rent. We hear all the time about how unfair this is and how we shouldn’t be putting so much on his shoulders. During the summer, this unfair burden averages out to about 20 minutes a day.

Our older daughters are in 3rd & 4th grade. Their daily chores consist of doing their homework, reading and picking up after themselves. All in all, that usually takes less than an hour each day. We recently started having them help load and unload the dishwasher, and my wife will have them help with their baby sister from time to time (they play with her while my wife does the laundry or takes care of other things around the house, not to mention the 7-8 times a day we lock them outside so we can have sex (not true, but we’ve been accused of that as well, because, you know, with 4 kids and another on the way we must be neglecting the kids so we can go at it like rabbits)). We were lambasted recently because our 10-year-old told someone she changes her sister’s diapers. That she asked to change the diapers (she’s excited about the new baby on the way and wanted to learn how so she could help more when she gets here), and that my wife was sick and 7 months pregnant at the time but still watching and helping her were irrelevant. We were still told that we were ruining our daughter’s life by expecting her to be “mommy” while my wife apparently sat around watching talk shows and eating chocolates.

We don’t arrange play dates for our son anymore, or sign him up for extracurricular activities because he’s twenty-freaking-one years old and the reasons should be pretty self-explanatory (should be, but aren’t, since we still have to explain them to others all the time). We do have our girls in several activities which we take them to anywhere from 2-4 nights each week. Play dates have been a rarity lately, but that’s due more to the weather and their friends’ parents’ changing schedules than to my wife’s pregnancy, although that is a factor. Still, unless we have them in various activities 4-5 hours per night and then ship them off to the neighbors the rest of the time, we’re going to be looked at as bad parents. I think that’s a bit on the insane side, but that’s the standard we’re supposed to measure up to.

 

[mark_a]

Why do people have such an aversion to larger families.

Your example pricks their conscience!!

 

[fm1982]

Thank you for all the supportive responses. I was almost afraid to read them because it is usually hot topic.

My big concern is that through the comments and attitude of so many people my wife’s condition is being worsened rather than helped. She already sees everything in such a negative light that when others “confirm” this view it makes life that much tougher.

Unfortunately it looks like four is it and we will be lucky to hold things together and heal through all of this. I had a very upsetting conversation with her last night. Even though we are both Catholic, she has now turned her back on God and her faith. When I reminded her that there are three of us in the marriage she said that there wasn’t and for I don’t put her first, before even God, there will be no more marriage. This includes being OK with an abortion as birth control should she ever get pregnant (by accident for lack of a better word). All her friends and therapist think that is OK and that if I love her I will be OK with that too. Fortunately my Catholic therapist supports me and I am working on talking to my priest about this new development.

I am so lost by all of this right now. I don’t know the answer to this, other than a know that God does come first and everything else must follow.

 

[ryecroft]

Of course her health needs to be the primary concern since she is the one possible at home caring for the entire family. If her health permits, why in the world would she ever deny her husband life? It is not simply about desiring a child or not it is about having serious reasons not to welcome life that warrants limiting life to a family. In this case, her health is a serious reason to delay new life.

Yes, I agree, but I believe another serious reason to delay is if either parent feels that they are getting “overwhelmed” - in my personal experinece, (not saying this is what’s happening here) - I have friends who have husbands that would “love to have another child” - but this is a husband who is working outside of the home -gone for probably 60 hours out of the week at least - if the woman is feeling she’s “had enough” or isn’t sure she could happily welcome and care for another then that is also a serious and just reason. I know this isn’t the case with all husbands out there but I’ve seen it happen with some and that is plenty of reason to ‘deny her husband life…’
God Bless
Rye

 

[GraceDK]

Thank you for all the supportive responses. I was almost afraid to read them because it is usually hot topic.

My big concern is that through the comments and attitude of so many people my wife’s condition is being worsened rather than helped. She already sees everything in such a negative light that when others “confirm” this view it makes life that much tougher.

Unfortunately it looks like four is it and we will be lucky to hold things together and heal through all of this. I had a very upsetting conversation with her last night. Even though we are both Catholic, she has now turned her back on God and her faith. When I reminded her that there are three of us in the marriage she said that there wasn’t and for I don’t put her first, before even God, there will be no more marriage. This includes being OK with an abortion as birth control should she ever get pregnant (by accident for lack of a better word). All her friends and therapist think that is OK and that if I love her I will be OK with that too. Fortunately my Catholic therapist supports me and I am working on talking to my priest about this new development.

I am so lost by all of this right now. I don’t know the answer to this, other than a know that God does come first and everything else must follow.

Brother, you say your wife has psychological problems. Have you yourself ever gone through something like that? Have you ever eg. suffered a period with stress, depression or anxiety? If you have you might understand more…
Your wife might feel pushed into a corner and feel that you are not on her team at all and thats why she says such desperate things.
I have a friend who has a agreat husband. They have just one kid and the wife is so exhausted and going out of her mind. She has struggled with depression and anxiety for many years and take medicin. For her takin care of just one child is like when another woman takes care of 8.
You understand?