Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

[allhers]

No, and yes.

Could I ask you a question? I know many people who are Lutheran and in the past we had some conversations about how and why they have crosses in their places of worship and in their homes instead of Crusifixes, when did you start using Crusifixes?

 

[Gamera]

Apples to oranges.

“Apples to oranges” is a perfect analogy for worship to veneration. Worship is fundamentally different from mere verneration.

I don’t salute the flag as part of a religious context …

Huh? Everything in life should have a religous context to a Christian. You can’t just slap the label “religious” onto certain acts of veneration and poof! they transform into worship, while others don’t. What exactly in life lacks a “religious context?”

… nor do I invoke the flag to intercede with the Creator of the universe on my behalf.

If I ask you to intercede with the Creator of the universe on my behalf, does that mean I am worshipping you?

 

[RobHom]

Well, not always, since you also have the tradition of venerating relics as sacred objects. As for venerating the person, that would equally be wrong.

Considering the following:

**

Main Entry:
ven·er·a·tion Listen to the pronunciation of veneration
Pronunciation:
\ˌve-nə-ˈrā-shən\
Function:
noun
Date:
15th century

1 : respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person 2 : the act of venerating 3 : the condition of one that is venerated
**

and

**
Main Entry:
ven·er·ate Listen to the pronunciation of venerate
Pronunciation:
\ˈve-nə-ˌrāt\
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
ven·er·at·ed; ven·er·at·ing
Etymology:
Latin veneratus, past participle of venerari, from vener-, venus love, charm — more at win
Date:
circa 1623

1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference 2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion**

I tend to disagree. Veneration in reality is not “worship”. It is what it is, nothing more.

Showing respect for a person, or their memory is hardly wrong. Showing respect for their influence on us, or their example, or even their position in our life or religion is not worship and is not wrong.

Before you “lob” #2 at me about the icon or relic… some things are held in esteem, and reverence…as an important part of history and have meaning to the faithful.

As a side note…I can see where non-Catholic Christians have a problem with this…and I say this in all friendliness… The more modern denominations have not much of historical significance and have taken such great strides to move away from any or many semblances of similarity to the Catholic Church so as to put distance between the Churches.

We don’t commit idolatry, and the Church does not condone it.

In my life I have met and even followed men of great stature and power…on a military level. I followed them into war, and to this day… I would answer their call to arms, because I know them to be men of honest and careful thought and action. Would you say that my “respect” for them broaches on “worship” because in all honesty…there are a couple of them that I would follow through the gates of Hell…

I see little difference other than one is religiously inspired respect and the other is secular in nature.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=TriuneUnity;4038735]Actually, I’ve never discussed the issue with you.

I did not mean to imply that we have discussed this before. I meant just what I wrote that I am sure it has been said to you before

Mainly because I am not an iconoclast and have no problem with biblical imagery, icons or statues. Rather, I think they are necessary in a Christian context.

.
Ok, so it alright to have them. You just can not show any respect to the person they represent? In all your life there has never been any one that has meant something to you ( a friend or relative lets say ) that you have been given something from them or that was theirs that you do not keep or kept in a special place that when you looked at it brought to mind that person how they behaved and what is was about them that inspired you? That my friend is veneration. the statues and Icons and relics are there as reminders of that person.

I have been given things that were my grandmother and grandfathers that when I look upon them I can not help but to say I love you grandma / grandpa. that Is veneration. I don’t no that they are In heaven I pray that they are and I as if they are. I include them in my prayers when asking the Saints and angles to along with me Pray to God.

 

[c659smith]

Which Scripture makes no distinction between.

If Scripture makes no distinction to which you are relying on in Exodus then working on the Lord’s day you are saying no Protestant should do or support those that are in a state of sin

You should not go and stay at a hotel on Sunday or would you expect no one there.

You should not go out to a restaurant, supermarket, toll road, the hospital.

The soldier should stop working,

you should remove all family relics, do not visit the graves of friends and loved ones.

You take Exodus literally when you choose.

If you work on the Lord’s day are you disobeying a commandment.

the policeman
the fireman
the hotel worker
the restaurant worker

 

[TriuneUnity]

Could I ask you a question? I know many people who are Lutheran and in the past we had some conversations about how and why they have crosses in their places of worship and in their homes instead of Crusifixes, when did you start using Crusifixes?

I think I pretty much always have. I didn’t appreciate it as much as I do now, though, having gone through a more iconoclastic phase in my youth.

 

[allhers]

I think I pretty much always have. I didn’t appreciate it as much as I do now, though, having gone through a more iconoclastic phase in my youth.

Do you have a better understanding now also how we Catholics aren’t praying to the Crusifix itself but rather the one that it represents? The same goes with the statues, icons, etc…
The only difference really though, is that when we are in His Real Presence, at Adoration, we really do believe that He is there among us, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
We believe this because He said so, we didn’t make it up, we just simply believe Him.
Same goes for Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, it’s Him.
We worship only HIM. The statues and icons, relics of the Saints, we venerate, not worship. Big difference. We understand that, do you now?

 

[po18guy]

If you were an Old Testament Israelite, shortly after the Exodus, and were found in a tent with a statue of the recently departed Moses, with candles around it, offering requests for prayer, Joshua would not have been able to tell the difference and would’ve clubbed you post haste

Ah, but the new Joshua, (Yeshua, Jesus) Who brought the everlasting covenant, fulfilled what was lacking in the old. He gave the power of binding and loosing (Matthew 16:19, 18:18) to the Apostles, knowing full well what they and their successors would do with it. He assured all generations that the gates of hell would never prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18).

Is there a cross either in, or on your church building? If yes, is it idol worship? Sure looks like it. Does Pastor place the bible on a stand? Sure looks like bible worship. But, is it? Appearances can be deceiving, especially when filtered through misunderstanding.

 

[po18guy]

Could I ask you a question? I know many people who are Lutheran and in the past we had some conversations about how and why they have crosses in their places of worship and in their homes instead of Crusifixes, when did you start using Crusifixes?

Bishop Fulton Sheen remarked that Christ without His cross is a man without a mission. And, that the cross without Christ is a burden without a Reliever. Since the suffering and blood of Christ paid for all sins, where can it be seen on an empty cross? Why have a cross at all? Without Christ, it remains the universal symbol for death. Put Christ on it, now you have life - eternal life.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Which Scripture makes no distinction between.

Of course not! That is not within the limited purpose of scripture. Now, when you consider the church authority behind the act of veneration, it’s all good.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Bishop Fulton Sheen remarked that Christ without His cross is a man without a mission. And, that the cross without Christ is a burden without a Reliever. Since the suffering and blood of Christ paid for all sins, where can it be seen on an empty cross? Why have a cross at all? Without Christ, it remains the universal symbol for death. Put Christ on it, now you have life - eternal life.

Christ’s peace.

It is interesting that you wrote this. The priest at my parish said something similar a couple of years ago in a homily. It really made me think about the differences. Now, when I am out and about and I see a cross without Jesus on it, I miss seeing his sacrifice that gave us life. When I see a crucifix, it fills my heart with love for Him for what He gave us.

 

[Always_For_Him]

TriuneUnity (and every non-C),
I know that there are fundamental differences between your faith and the Catholic faith. But, I hope at this point, I can ask you to please realize that you are going to have to be open to what we are explaining to you. It occurs to me over and over again when I read what non-Catholics espouse as our beliefs. There is just simply no truth to those beliefs.

I don’t know exactly when each belief started, but it started at some point for some reason, and not in praise of the Catholic Church. Look at all of the untruths that the Catholics on this board are having to refute and spell out over and over again trying to explain the truth.

It comes down to this in regards to what non-Catholics believe about Catholics:

1. If you were taught it by your pastor, by your Church, by someone at your Church, by someone who is not-Catholic, it probably isn’t true.
2. If we say it isn’t true, even once, and explain why, then it ISN’T true!
3. You have to be able to at least realize that these untruths that we are refuting are untruths that have been taught in error, were told to you error, were taught to your Church in error, are not understood correctly by whoever taught it to you, or that your assumption on it was incorrect.

Every Church that came along as a result of the Reformation has had to teach untruths. They did, it got worse as time went on and more Churches were established, and those untruths are still taught and believed. That doesn’t make them true.

We shouldn’t have to bend over backwards to explain why these “untruths” aren’t true. If we say they aren’t true, then they aren’t true.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Do you have a better understanding now also how we Catholics aren’t praying to the Crusifix itself but rather the one that it represents? The same goes with the statues, icons, etc…

That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

Same goes for Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, it’s Him.
We worship only HIM. The statues and icons, relics of the Saints, we venerate, not worship. Big difference. We understand that, do you now?

I understand that Catholics do not believe they are in an act of worship when venerating an image. Whether it’s a crucifix or a statue of Christ or Mary. The Israelites did not think so either with that whole golden calf affair.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ah, but the new Joshua, (Yeshua, Jesus) Who brought the everlasting covenant, fulfilled what was lacking in the old. He gave the power of binding and loosing (Matthew 16:19, 18:18) to the Apostles, knowing full well what they and their successors would do with it. He assured all generations that the gates of hell would never prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18).

So I should believe this theology of veneration simply on the word of a bishop rather than simply taking the first commandment to mean what it means?

 

[TriuneUnity]

If Scripture makes no distinction to which you are relying on in Exodus then working on the Lord’s day you are saying no Protestant should do or support those that are in a state of sin

You should not go and stay at a hotel on Sunday or would you expect no one there.

You should not go out to a restaurant, supermarket, toll road, the hospital.

The soldier should stop working,

you should remove all family relics, do not visit the graves of friends and loved ones.

You take Exodus literally when you choose.

If you work on the Lord’s day are you disobeying a commandment.

the policeman
the fireman
the hotel worker
the restaurant worker

We are given an explanation of the meaning of the Sabbath in the New Testament. We are not given a different understanding of the first commandment. And certainly nothing close to what is being advocated here.

 

[cazayoux]

That’s the problem. “Venerating” anything but God is a violation of the first commandment.

I understand that Catholics do not believe they are in an act of worship when venerating an image. Whether it’s a crucifix or a statue of Christ or Mary. The Israelites did not think so either with that whole golden calf affair.

God Himself told us to honor our mother and father.
… and I think you misunderstand the commandment regarding graven images. God didn’t forbid graven images, he forbade the worship of graven images.
This is exactly what the Israelites did with the golden calf.

If God hated graven images, why did he command the use of them.
For example,
Staff with snakes (Moses or Aaron, can’t remember which)
The ark that held the stone tablets had two angels on the lid and horns at the corners.
The veil itself that separated the holiest of holies where the ark resided had winged beast on it.
The temple that Solomon built is full of statues of animals. I remember that there are statues of 12 oxen (3 north, 3 …).

This shows me that there is a distinction between having graven images (which God obviously allows) and worshipping graven images (which God forbids).

michel

 

[PerryJ]

So I should believe this theology of veneration simply on the word of a bishop rather than simply taking the first commandment to mean what it means?

I discussed this with several Jewish individuals that stated that one should not have any image as this was breaking the first commandment. As such they did not allow any images in their synagogues. They would perceive a cross in a church or a house as breaking the first commandment. From their perspective none of us are following the word of the Lord in the Old Testament.

 

[cazayoux]

I discussed this with several Jewish individuals that stated that one should not have any image as this was breaking the first commandment. As such they did not allow any images in their synagogues. They would perceive a cross in a church or a house as breaking the first commandment. From their perspective none of us are following the word of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Yet they wear a star of David.
How is this different from wearing a cross?

michel

 

[PerryJ]

Yet they wear a star of David.
How is this different from wearing a cross?

michel

I agree with your statement.

I was hopeful that putting a third perspective in the discussion would shed some light on the difference between Catholicism and other religions. Jewish people would hold any cross as being sacrilegious. Protestants do not hold that this is true; yet, some Jewish people would hold that Protestants are worshipping idols. Just as a Protestant may believe we are worshipping idols. Some Jewish people see no difference in what Protestants are doing and what we are doing. Placing it on a wall in remembrance to them is venerating the object and is sacrilegious. When does an object become sacrilegious? When one places it on a wall as remembrance. When one get on his or her knees in remembrance.

 

[mercygate]

Awesome…can I go by “Blade: Gnostic Hunter?”

Works for me!