Why the bible is most assuredly not a Catholic book,

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TriuneUnity said:
If you were an Old Testament Israelite, shortly after the Exodus, and were found in a tent with a statue of the recently departed Moses, with candles around it, offering requests for prayer, Joshua would not have been able to tell the difference and would’ve clubbed you post haste 😉
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And, as ST. John points out, since the Incarnation had not yet happened, he would have reason to do so.
 
When the followers of Jesus were finally convinced that HE was just what HE said He was…The Son of God…come to earth to teach we humans how to live…they began to preach the good word. Gradually as the church grew it was apparent some writing was needed to spread the Word quicker and wider. The various writings were not assembled under one cover until ,as I recall,397ad so for some 400 years millions were converted by the spoken word only…the 'bible’was not needed,plus literacy,the ability to read and comprehend ,was sadly lacking. It seems to me if Jesus had wanted His teachings to be put into booklet form He would have invented the printing press!!! But instead he invented a magic chair of sorts…situated in Rome and whomever sat in that chair spoke for HIm …down thru the centuries…re-defining words and their meanings and thus after 2,000 years of the worst persecution the RCC survives,billions strong!!!The RCC does NOT need the bible to stay afloat…onlyl the protestants…we are not a church of a series of diaries and letters but of Truth…founded on a Rock…not mush so easily swayed by the whims of being PC…thats why we are hated so…
 
TriuneUnity said:
If you were an Old Testament Israelite, shortly after the Exodus, and were found in a tent with a statue of the recently departed Moses, with candles around it, offering requests for prayer, Joshua would not have been able to tell the difference and would’ve clubbed you post haste 😉
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And yet when they built the ark to carry the covenant in upon it was place were two cherubim, with their faces turned toward one another. it from this it does appear that there were occasion when images where used by the Israelites very shortly after the Exodus.

I know you have more than like been told this before and that you will more than likely not pay in more attention now that then. the Icons and Statues are not worshiped, neither are the the saints for which they represent. Worship is only to God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Icons and statues of Saints serve as a reminder of those that have gone on to Glory in how they followed Christ the candles represent our prayer to God Or in the Case of those before the Tabernacle the Present of the Eucharist.

so just as the two cherubim upon the Ark with their wings spread out to represent the Throne of God so to the statues represent those that stand before the throne of God.
 
How about when the Israelites went around and around the walls of Jericho carrying the Ark of Covenant? i wonder what protestants say to that. oh, i forgot they are not ready to face Truth yet. their main goal is to find something, something in the SS to condenm the CC.
 
Gamera said:
But see, that’s exactly the point. This isn’t the Old Covenant. The Incarnation changed that. God became man, meaning that for the first time, we could see Him physically here on earth. “By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new economy of images.” CCC 2131. “The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God.” CCC 2141. The very reason why it’s now permissible to depict holy images is because we *aren’t * “an Old Testament Israelite shortly after the Exodus.”
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I don’t agree with the concept of a new economy to images. Images were ALWAYS permissable. There were images in the Temple, on the Ark of the Covenant, and there was the bronze statue of the serpent of Moses.

Veneration of those images has never been permissable and still is not. Christ’s incarnation did not change the prohibitions of the first commandment. There is no scriptural support for such an argument.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
And yet when they built the ark to carry the covenant in upon it was place were two cherubim, with their faces turned toward one another. it from this it does appear that there were occasion when images where used by the Israelites very shortly after the Exodus.

I know you have more than like been told this before and that you will more than likely not pay in more attention now that then.
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Actually, I’ve never discussed the issue with you. Mainly because I am not an iconoclast and have no problem with biblical imagery, icons or statues. Rather, I think they are necessary in a Christian context.
 
TriuneUnity said:
I don’t agree with the concept of a new economy to images. Images were ALWAYS permissable. There were images in the Temple, on the Ark of the Covenant, and there was the bronze statue of the serpent of Moses.

Veneration of those images has never been permissable and still is not. Christ’s incarnation did not change the prohibitions of the first commandment. There is no scriptural support for such an argument.
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Catholics do not pray to an image but to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

What does the cross (an image) mean to you? You do not pray to the image of the cross but the meaning of the cross as we relate to Jesus’s sacrafice to us.

Exodus chapter 20
1
1 Then God delivered all these commandments:
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"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
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You shall not have other gods besides me.
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**You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
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2 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; **6
but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.
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"You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain.
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**"Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
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Six days you may labor and do all your work,
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but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you. **11
In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
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"Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you.
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"You shall not kill.
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"You shall not commit adultery.
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"You shall not steal.
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"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
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“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ***, nor anything else that belongs to him.”
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When the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the trumpet blast and the mountain smoking, they all feared and trembled. So they took up a position much farther away
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and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we shall die.”
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Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid, for God has come to you only to test you and put his fear upon you, lest you should sin.”
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Still the people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the cloud where God was.
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The LORD told Moses, "Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven.
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Do not make anything to rank with me; neither gods of silver nor gods of gold shall you make for yourselves.
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3 "An altar of earth you shall make for me, and upon it you shall sacrifice your holocausts and peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In whatever place I choose for the remembrance of my name I will come to you and bless you.
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If you make an altar of stone for me, do not build it of cut stone, for by putting a tool to it you desecrate it.
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You shall not go up by steps to my altar, on which you must not be indecently uncovered.

**Idols are other Gods than Him

Catholics believe in one God—The Holy Trinity–Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The other area in Bold --Working on the Sabbath—

A policemen, fireman, soldier, etc… is he or she in violation of this commandment/ Was Jesus when He healed and cured on the Sabbath? My friend you are judging without knowing the substance of what you judge.**
 
c659smith said:
Catholics do not pray to an image but to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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So the processions in the streets with statues of the mother of God being carried while the faithful send up pleas to her for protection and favor are fictional?
What does the cross (an image) mean to you? You do not pray to the image of the cross but the meaning of the cross as we relate to Jesus’s sacrafice to us.
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I don’t have a problem with crucifixes. I have one in every room of the house.
 
TriuneUnity said:
So the processions in the streets with statues of the mother of God being carried while the faithful send up pleas to her for protection and favor are fictional?

I don’t have a problem with crucifixes. I have one in every room of the house.
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Are not crucifixes images?
 
c659smith said:
Are not crucifixes images?
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Mary we plead as an intecessor same as you would ask a family member or friend to pray for you in time of need. It is not the image but the knowing Mary is close to God in Heaven and just as those in heaven that are offering prayers to our Lord.

They are in heaven already so who do you think they are saying prayers for?

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold *; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

What about a Dove representing the Holy Spirit?*
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. My argument is not against images. It’s the veneration of images. Images are perfectly fine and biblical.
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I don’t understand your objection. Why do you think veneration is the same as worship? When I salute my country’s flag during the national anthem, do you consider that worship? I am venerating (showing respect and devotion), not worshipping (adoration). And even the veneration is not directed at the flag itself, but at the country which the flag symbolizes. What is wrong with that?

In the same way, I venerate (show respect and devotion) around sacred images, but it isn’t worship, and even the veneration is directed only at that which is symbolized by the image (the particular saint depicted), not the image itself.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. My argument is not against images. It’s the veneration of images. Images are perfectly fine and biblical.
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Come now… 🙂 You know its NOT veneration of the image. Its veneration of the person whom the image represents or should I say the person whom the image causes you to think of?

Peace!
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. My argument is not against images. It’s the veneration of images. Images are perfectly fine and biblical.
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In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglo Catholic theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the worship due to God alone. Church theologians have long adopted the terms latria for the sacrificial worship due to God alone, and dulia for the veneration given to saints and icons. Catholic theology also includes the term hyperdulia for the type of veneration specifically paid to Mary, mother of Jesus, in Catholic tradition. This distinction is spelled out in the dogmatic conclusions of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787), which also decreed that iconoclasm (forbidding icons and their veneration) is a heresy that amounts to a denial of the incarnation of Jesus.

Earthly remains of the saints are venerated because the saints are living members of Christ and their bodies, like ours, were temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16-17, 6:15, 19, Eph. 2:19-22). These remains will one day be awakened and glorified (1 Cor. 15:42-54). While the saints were on earth, God bestowed many graces upon his Church through them (2 Cor. 1:11), and he continues to do so now that they are glorified in God’s presence (Heb. 12:1). We honor (dulia) the relics, statues, and images of the saints with a veneration that is directed toward the saints themselves, and in honoring the saints we honor Christ whose members they are (1 Cor. 12:27). In fact, Protestants honor the relics of their dead when they visit or lay flowers on the graves of their loved ones. If a Catholic does something similar with respect to a saint to whom he may have no blood relation, he is accused of idolatry.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Yes. My argument is not against images. It’s the veneration of images. Images are perfectly fine and biblical.
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Don’t you ever kiss your Crucifix on the five wounds? Wouldn’t that be classified as “veneration”?
 
Gamera said:
I don’t understand your objection. Why do you think veneration is the same as worship? When I salute my country’s flag during the national anthem, do you consider that worship? I am venerating (showing respect and devotion), not worshipping (adoration). And even the veneration is not directed at the flag itself, but at the country which the flag symbolizes. What is wrong with that?
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Apples to oranges. I don’t salute the flag as part of a religious context nor do I invoke the flag to intercede with the Creator of the universe on my behalf.
 
RobHom said:
Come now… 🙂 You know its NOT veneration of the image. Its veneration of the person whom the image represents or should I say the person whom the image causes you to think of?

Peace!
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Well, not always, since you also have the tradition of venerating relics as sacred objects. As for venerating the person, that would equally be wrong.
 
Theyy followed Christ they were chirstian.

All Christians are really jews.

That would make it not a protestant book either.

The Catholic Church choose what books went into the new testament.

Hope this is enough.👍
 
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