Why the big fuss over homosexuality?

[Lynn-D]

Lisa N:

To say animals have sex for pleasure is somewhat misleading. Animals do not have sex ‘for pleasure’ although clearly there may well be some physical pleasure derived. Animals will have sex when the female is fertile and receptive and that’s IT. Anestrus females are NOT very friendly to amorous males and can actually seriously injure or kill the male if he gets too rowdy. If pleasure were the guiding force, they would, like humans, have sex at all times during the female’s cycle. Someone said that there are a few species that do have sexual relations in non estrus times but that is the exception, not the rule.

The drive to reproduce is extremely strong in both females and males. I assure you, having grown up on a farm, that both sexes will do anything to get together including going through or over fences or barriers, across water, or travel for miles. It’s an instinct though, not a desire for a pleasureable experience. Thank heavens as our fences would not have survived a daily assualt.

Lisa N

Lisa,
I owned and operated a horse farm for over 20yrs. I added pleasure to instinct purposefully. As you know the instinct is triggered by the female estrus. It is that of course that drives the male to copulate and the female to be a willing recipient. But, the fact remains, they both enjoy the ‘pleasure’ and the passion of it even though, forgive my humor, neither lights up a cigarette afterwards.
Lynn-D

 

[Lisa_N]

Lynn-D:

Lisa,
I owned and operated a horse farm for over 20yrs. I added pleasure to instinct purposefully. As you know the instinct is triggered by the female estrus. It is that of course that drives the male to copulate and the female to be a willing recipient. But, the fact remains, they both enjoy the ‘pleasure’ and the passion of it even though, forgive my humor, neither lights up a cigarette afterwards.
Lynn-D

Actually one of our stallions used to rest on the mare afterward. We used to joke “Willy’s having his cigarette.” Jokes aside, I guess my main point is that the pleasure is transitory, temporary and does not create a pair bond. Nor will animals copulate simply for ‘fun.’ That is one of the major differences between humans and other animals.

Lisa N

 

[milimac]

Don’t have time for a more in depth answer at this moment since I’m headed for bed, but I’d highly recommend reading or listening to Christopher West’s explanations of Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body:

theologyofthebody.com/works.htm

He makes the pope’s deep theology more accessible for everyday knuckleheads like me.

Basically there is a unitive and procreative dimension to a sexual relationship between a man and a woman that can never be fully expressed in a homosexual union. The arguments against homosexuality would be very similar to the arguments against contraception.

Keep in mind that the Church teaches what it does not because it’s on some sort of power trip but because it leads to happiness and fulfillment – not just eternal but to a lesser extent in this life as well. As the army slogan goes, “Be all you can be”. The Church discourages you from settling for less, but to “have life, and have it to the full”.

 

[sweetchuck]

Lynn-D:

Werner,
I understand your hurt although I do see the actions of some who condemn homosexuality, at least the acts, as wrong and sinful. I am not really sure and I would never condemn another simply on the words that come loosely from the bible as if Gods absolutes . I for one consider the book of Leviticus a book of hypocrisy and self serving for men. I wonder how such thinking in the present day of knowledge can be so accepted.

That’s disturbing that you would call the divinely inspired Word of God “a book of hypocrisy.” Clearly you are not reading it in its context. A lot of the topics written about in the book have to do with Jewish ritual purity, sacrifice rituals and other religious practices. Leviticus 17-26 has to do with a “holiness code” – codes for living moral lives and guidelines as to what is/isn’t an abomination. Homosexual sex falls into the latter category. There are mistranslations of Leviticus which states that homosexual sex is a “taboo.” But the original form of the word is the equivalent of an “abomination.”

New American Bible
Lev. 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

From Leviticus, which has its origins hundreds of years before Christ to Romans and other epistles, if you read the Bible, there is Bible-wide condemnation of homosexuality. You may not like it, but that’s the way it is.

Jesus does nothing to negate or reverse the moral teachings of the Old Covenant. A lot of what he makes new is the legislative, such acting out against stonings and such. But he does not OK to the woman’s sins. God doesn’t change moral law from the Old to the New Covenant.

Lynn-D:

I do wonder why it is that so many ignore the words given to Moses by God. To breach the laws as inscribed in the Ten Commandments seems not to be as serious as the rantings or raving given orally at some time and later written as if given to the orator by God Himself. Jesus did after all come to clarify the Word and that would not have been needed if the Word written by man was totally correct in my humble opinion.
I would never assume to judge another. That is God’s job and only His.

What? Are you kidding me? No wonder you’re suspended.

Jesus didn’t come into the world to clarify some sort of scriptural error. Jesus came into the world so that through Him, many may be saved. Jesus came into the world to save us because there was no other way for us to be reunited with God. Jesus came to become our Way, our Truth and our Life.

You’re right in that you cannot judge another person, but sins (actions) can be judged. Read the Wisdom books…

Prov. 13:24
“He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him.”

…there are oodles of similar maxims throughout the Bible. Plus, Jesus kind of gave us that authority himself.

Matt. 18:15-18:
“If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

It is foolhardy to believe in some sort of moral relativism governing the universe. If that were true, that would make humans God. But anyone with wisdom knows that humans are not God, nor can humans’ thoughts rewrite moral law – the very absurdity that is moral relativism.

Moral law is moral law is moral law.

If you are a homosexual, take heart, the Bible does not condemn you for being a homosexual. The Bible merely condemns lust and homosexual sex. So, if you are able to resist the temptation, you are more than capable of living a moral life as a nonpracticing homosexual. It CAN be done. The temptations will be with you until the day you die, but through prayer, their force and frequency will diminish. Trust in God, and do not listen to fools who act in hatred of you when they “spare the rod” and attempt to justify immoral actions. They would have you indulge your temptations and lead you down the path to destruction. Pray for strength and God will not leave you desolate.

 

[Brad]

fix:

I hope the moderator deletes the above perverted post. God have mercy on all of us.

No kidding. Glad they did. I had reported it also.

 

[Brad]

Werner:

Thank you all for your thoughts and good bye.
I really don’t think this forum is a place for me.
Luke, i want to thank you again for your postings, there aren’t too many who are willing to even think about the topic a little bit.

best regards
Werner

Hmmm. You write a well thought out post that addresses each point in a decent manner of dialogue, asking honest questions for clarification etc. and you get labeled as a “non-thinker”.

I wonder who is really doing the judging here and being less than compassionate?

 

[Brad]

Island Oak:

You apparently have not logged much time in the world of birth defects. Count yourself as lucky.

I would put it a different way than that Island. I’d say that people born with physical birth defects are not abnormal people. They are simply gifted in a different way than we are more accustomed too. God doesn’t make people that are less than human, whether they are labeled as a “homosexual” or with a “birth defect”. What a horrible way to classify someone - as defective (I know it wasn’t you that came up with that term - I’m making a general statement regarding society’s labeling).
Island Oak:

I do not dispute, nonetheless, that a significant proportion of homosexual practice is the result of environmental influence and that the related agenda promoting homosexual lifestyle/rights can be the result of narcisstic tendencies and disordered moral thought.

It seems to be the case. Really, we are all vulnerable to poor enviroments and temptations to do bad things. We must be vigilant in centering our lives on Jesus. Many children suffer due to their upbringing (or lack thereof) and we must strive to help them as early as possible.
Island Oak:

Apparently I missed some excitement on the boards today–how does someone with screen nameof “baal” get membership on a Catholic forum?

Everyone gets a chance - but I think at least being able to write coherently is a prerequisite.

 

[Brad]

Lynn-D:

Werner,
I understand your hurt although I do see the actions of some who condemn homosexuality, at least the acts, as wrong and sinful. I am not really sure and I would never condemn another simply on the words that come loosely from the bible as if Gods absolutes . I for one consider the book of Leviticus a book of hypocrisy and self serving for men. I wonder how such thinking in the present day of knowledge can be so accepted.
I do wonder why it is that so many ignore the words given to Moses by God. To breach the laws as inscribed in the Ten Commandments seems not to be as serious as the rantings or raving given orally at some time and later written as if given to the orator by God Himself. Jesus did after all come to clarify the Word and that would not have been needed if the Word written by man was totally correct in my humble opinion.
I would never assume to judge another. That is God’s job and only His.
Keep the faith.
Lynn-D

I’d never assume to judge another either. God is the only judge and He will do it one time for each person. But I would also never judge the Church (the Body of Christ) and I would not judge the Word of God (which is also Christ). When you decide which moral laws you want to believe in, you are making a judgement. But Jesus said not to do that - he said to judge what is right and wrong:

From Luke 12:

49"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!
50"But I have a (BA)baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
51"(BB)Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
53"They will be divided, (BC)father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
54And He was also saying to the crowds, "(BD)When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming,’ and so it turns out.
55"And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, ‘It will be a (BE)hot day,’ and it turns out that way.
56"You hypocrites! (BF)You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
57"And (BG)why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?

 

[fix]

Lisa N:

My sentiments as well. Many people struggle with ‘tendencies’ or issues that are extremely hard to overcome. I don’t know why sex drives are elevated to some kind of special status. It cannot be any easier to be an alcoholic and pass up a drink or an addict to pass up getting high. No sane person would accept an addict saying “Well this is the way God made me…” as an excuse for not seeking treatment and a normal existence.

I’d really like to hear one of the homosexual apologists explain why their cause is so much more important than the struggles and crosses others bear.

Indeed. The reality is that NO ONE needs to know about your sex life. That homosexuals make their sex lives a public statement and then complain when they ‘draw fire’ baffles me to no end. They ask why they can’t ‘just be left alone…’ Well most of us would LOVE to leave them alone. Very few people have any overt animosity toward homosexuals and seek them out to persecute them.

But the reality is this little bit of info is really not necessary to share with the world. And werner, no I do not want to see two men kissing in public. I don’t want to see ANYONE engaged in a passionate kiss in public, homo or hetero. Again there are parts of our lives that are private and should remain private.

In their determination to let the world know “who they are” I think they make Fis’x case in that they are narcissic, attention seeking, and frankly pathetic. Like the little child “look at me, look at me!”

Exactly. Again this elevates one particular struggle over all others. What justifies this?

Well said. That’s clearly the philosophy of many homosexuals, both on this board and in our everyday worlds.

Lisa N

Certain groups have “owned” the argument in public for so long that any dissent from the secular orthodoxy is labeled intolerant, bigoted, or even anti Christian. That needs to be changed.

 

[fix]

Brad:

I’d never assume to judge another either. God is the only judge and He will do it one time for each person. But I would also never judge the Church (the Body of Christ) and I would not judge the Word of God (which is also Christ). When you decide which moral laws you want to believe in, you are making a judgement. But Jesus said not to do that - he said to judge what is right and wrong:

From Luke 12:

49"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!
50"But I have a (BA)baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
51"(BB)Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
53"They will be divided, (BC)father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
54And He was also saying to the crowds, "(BD)When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming,’ and so it turns out.
55"And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, ‘It will be a (BE)hot day,’ and it turns out that way.
56"You hypocrites! (BF)You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
57"And (BG)why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?

How did we get to the point where we think God does not want us to properly judge? Are the civil courts a violation of the bible? Can we no longer hold any opinion about behavior or practices because that violates Christ’s words?

By their fruits you will know them…if that is not a call to judge, then what is it?

 

[caroljm36]

Tantum ergo:

C.S. Lewis once spoke of the problem with those who say, “Just let me have this one (wrong) thing which I want, and the price I pay will be worth it”. They seem to think that the “experience” will somehow be worthwhile even if they go to hell for it. They fail to realize that, by doing the wrong, they will turn even that “good” into evil and that it will be their biggest curse throughout eternity. We’ve all seen, or experienced, times where we “love” someone and then either “fall out of love” or otherwise “move on”, and that same person who once was the light of our eyes and the joy of our existence becomes, not even just “not cared about” but actually hateful to our minds and hearts. That’s what we’ll get when we elevate any one or any thing as our “god” instead of worshipping the one true God. I have to say it, you’ve made your homosexuality/ your partner into your “god” or “idol” in that you’re more concerned about it/ him than you are about God Himself, and that instead of attempting to model your life and self on God, you’re attempting to either fit God into your life or ignore or change Him to suit your own needs/ ideas. .

How true. I speak from experience! My major was social-cultural history, and I continued to read in this area long after college. We have to remember that the great Romantic myth has been shoved down our throats since the early 1800s, in Victorian novels, then in movies, then TV, in pop songs, even in later classical music. The myth was that the point of life was to gain experience, adventure, live for today, live for your feelings, to hell with everything and everyone else. It wreaked havoc with family for sure.

 

[dumspirospero]

Good Stuff

GoodKnight1443:

I actually find that amusing. Because your post is a classic troll, if you wanted answers you would ask an intelligent question. You joined this forum a few minutes before you posted, most likely with the intent of causing commotion. You obviouly have an agenda based on your other post in the lds/pro-life thread and the one you deleted.

Your use of “Xian God” is also suspicious. Xian God is a term used by athiests, wiccans, satanists, occustlists etc. and others who are attcking the Judeo-Christian belief system.

If you want to discuss issues, great, then do so. Don’t come in here and troll bait. You are not fooling me.

 

[Brad]

fix:

How did we get to the point where we think God does not want us to properly judge? Are the civil courts a violation of the bible? Can we no longer hold any opinion about behavior or practices because that violates Christ’s words?

By their fruits you will know them…if that is not a call to judge, then what is it?

Oh… It’s ALL OVER the Bible that we need to make judgements but then some people “judge” that the person didn’t really say that.

Blah, blah, blah.

 

[crusader4life]

This is from what I understand…Please correct me if I’m wrong.
There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, it’s how the homosexual person acts upon it is what makes this right or wrong. If one with this cross stays chaste, there’s nothing wrong and the person is well off on this matter. But if this person were to step out of line and do somethings against Church’s teachings, it’s wrong (of course).

Everyone has a cross to bear, but not every cross is made of the same wood.

Like others said before: We can only judge the action, not the person, only God can do that.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Werner:

Michael,

thanks for your post which differs nicely from many others that are of the “how dare you to have a different opinion” sort.

Yes, i am still a Catholic, and i believe everything you wrote in your post about God and Jesus Christ.

But there is one topic the church is wrong about, it took me a whole decade of struggling and fighting to see that. Now if you have searched your consience about that topic, all the pro’s and con’s at least one tenth of that time we can discuss that again.

And those coming up with “natural law” should go to the trouble of looking at it from the perspective of an homosexual (if they are able to do so, what i doubt), and they will find out what a nonsense it is to call it “against natural law”.

I don’t think i will post again here in the forum, i don’t want to “stir the pot” as one member said. If just a few here would think a little bit about themselves and the other side before throwing stones, i would be happy.

bless you,
Werner

Werner:

I’ve read most of the rest of this thread (I was gone for awhile), and, luckily, you don’t get to read the unedited version, which has almost as many errors as words…

I can only tell you that I’m not a lifeling Catholic, and that it took quite the “Rescue Operation” to bring me back from the brink after I was GONE for 20 years.

Regarding Homelessness, Starvation, etc., - Those things aren’t sins unless 1. The people want to be helped, 2. The Christians know about them & have some idea about what to do, 3. The Christians have the means to help, and 4. The Christians actively ignore their plight. That’s the Standard in Matt 25: 31-46.

That doesn’t change the Church’s teaching with regard to Homosexuality, Fornication, Adultery or any of those other abuses of our sexual nature which are among the things that tend to separate us from God.

I’ve also been there, I’ve also done that, and I’ve also been very much separated from God, and that’s why He had to send an Orthodox Rabbi to get me after I had been gone 20 years.

When God Created everything and stepped back and, “Said that it was very good.” That was BEFORE sin came into the picture and warped and damaged everything, including you and me.

I tried picking and choosing which Scriptures and teachings of the Church I was going to accept, and when I was going to decide the Church was wrong or mistaken. You can see some of what it took to get me back and where I was going in a Post I wrote to one of the Eastern Orthodox
Re: Eastern Orthodox anti-Catholicism? #171
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=386287&postcount=171

I can go into detail about what a disaster I made of my life, but you probably get the picture, and who likes to watch self-engineered train wrecks, anyway?

Werner, that becomes the problem, who’s the God of your life? Is it Our Lord and Savior, who redeemed you with the price of His life and suffering? or, Is it your sexual urges and your (I know how strong they are) needs for intimacy and genital contact?

Jesus said that this type only can be solved by prayer and fasting. He wasn’t joking!

You know, we have Confession (I know, they want me to call it the Sacrament of Reconciliation!), which you can use whether you think you’ve sinned or not. If I were in you’re situation, I’d find an orthodox Priest with a LOT of understanding and patience, and I’d go to him weekly! There is NO reason to struggle with your difficulty on your own, which is what I’ve imagined you’ve done so far.

Werner, “With God, all things are possible.” except changing His Commandments. God freed Russia from the Communists, and you can see what He saved me from.

You have some tough choices to make. Maybe this will help.

St. Francis used to bless people even though he never became a Priest, and I’ve done so on a SECULAR Board:

*“May the Lord bless you and keep you; may the Lord cause his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; may the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and grant you peace.” *

Numbers 6:24-26

In Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Lisa N:

Have the moderators already deleted it? I thought fix meant my post and I didn’t see anything objectionable about it. Hopefully if there has been a ‘stinkbomb’ dropped, it’s gone.

werner I am sorry if you have interpreted our disagreement with your position as “lack of thought” about the issue. I have spent a lot of time thinking, reading, studying, and considering the issues of homosexuals. I have two dear friends whom I met before they ‘came out’ and I pray for them all of the time. This is an issue very close to my heart but I still do not think the homosexual lifestyle is either normal, healthy or life affirming.

Lisa N

Lisa:

The stinkbomb by the “abomination of desolation” is quite gone, As is, I assume, the false god who wrote it.

I agree with you about Werner, and I’m also sorry to see him go.

Werner:

My blessing to you is in my previous post, and I do wish that you would reconsider.

If you do decide not to pick and choose, but to try to submit to the church on this issue, you will need all of the help and prayers that you can get.

Lisa:

Thank you for allowing me to do that.

God Bless.

Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Sweetchuck,

Your #83
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=384126&postcount=83

May need some clarification.

Rabinnical Sources will tell you that the term translated as “Abomination” that was used in Leviticus 18: 22

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination."

Lev. 18:22 NAB

Had to do with an act that was GUARANTEED to SEPARATE someone from God and His Plan for their lives and that it substantially puts them on the path away from God and towards Sheol (Hell).

Basically, you could say that Lev. 18:22 is stating that homosexual sex for a man is a MORTAL SIN. We believe that it’s just one of many such SINS that separate us from God and put us in danger of damantion.

Part of what the Holy Spirit does is to give us the power to overcome those urges and to free us from that SIN along with all the rest of our SINFUL urges.

You did well catching Lynn-D’d problems with Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium. Try to be patient. I was there once.

Good Catch. God Bless.

In Him, Michael

 

[Riley259]

Werner:

Michael,

thanks for your post which differs nicely from many others that are of the “how dare you to have a different opinion” sort.

I can tell you i’ve been a Catholic all my livetime, and even a very devout Catholic for a long time.

On the other side i am a gay man.

I have been struggling, praying and fighting for years until i came to a point where i came to the conclusion that this is the way how God in his uncomprehensibility decided to create me.

As i said, this was no easy decision (to accept that) but i finally came up with and i am 100% convinced that “HE SAW IT WAS GOOD”.

I know that you will think i’m a sinner, will go to hell etc, but i don’t fear to meet Him on judgement day, at least not for that topic.

Now what am i looking for here? I thought this to be a place to exchage ideas with fellow Catholics, but it hurts me and upsets me to see the zeal of some people, who NEVER EVER have wasted one single thought about the topic of homosexuality but are faster in judging about others than all the pharisees together.

Why can’t these people just leave homosexuals alone? What is the big problem, when two people who truely love each others, sign a contract at the town hall?

Yes, the church calls it a big sin, but there are other big sins out there we see each and every day. People starving, people who have no place to sleep and many more.

If us Christians would care about all those sins with the same zeal the world would be a better place.

Yes, i am still a Catholic, and i believe everything you wrote in your post about God and Jesus Christ.

But there is one topic the church is wrong about, it took me a whole decade of struggling and fighting to see that. Now if you have searched your consience about that topic, all the pro’s and con’s at least one tenth of that time we can discuss that again.

And those coming up with “natural law” should go to the trouble of looking at it from the perspective of an homosexual (if they are able to do so, what i doubt), and they will find out what a nonsense it is to call it “against natural law”.

I don’t think i will post again here in the forum, i don’t want to “stir the pot” as one member said. If just a few here would think a little bit about themselves and the other side before throwing stones, i would be happy.

bless you,
Werner

Werner,

I appreciate your candor in this post. I have several friends who are openly gay. I respect them and admire them for many of their qualities as a human being. However, I also have looked at the issue of homosexuality in detail and feel very strongly that the Church is correct regarding their position. To be homosexual is not inherently sinful and yes, people with same-sex attractions in the majority of cases do not choose their sexual orientation. But most of the evidence (religious issues aside) points very strongly to homosexuality being the result of a constellation of environmental issues often including a psycho-sexual disorder very early in life - there is simply no credible evidence that it is biologically determined (see works of Joseph Nicolosi and Richard Fitzgibbons for a wealth of empirical studies on this issue). Homosexuality is a disorder and it is possible to live chastely - we don’t have to obey sexual urges! Please don’t define yourself by your sexual orientation - too many gay individuals do this (my friends included). You are so much more than that. You are a human being who God loves - you are made in His image and as a result have incomparable dignity. Your Catholic faith is not worth throwing away or dissenting from because you can’t help giving in to same-sex urges. I’d also recommend visiting the Courage website and reading some material by Fr. John Harvey and David Armstrong (a gay man who wrote the wonderful book, “Beyond Gay”). To be a faithful Catholic these days means being counter-cultural and sometimes politically incorrect. Pray hard and be strong but faithful to the Church’s teachings - it won’t be easy but it will definitely be worth it. God Bless.

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

caroljm36:

How true. I speak from experience! My major was social-cultural history, and I continued to read in this area long after college. We have to remember that the great Romantic myth has been shoved down our throats since the early 1800s, in Victorian novels, then in movies, then TV, in pop songs, even in later classical music. The myth was that the point of life was to gain experience, adventure, live for today, live for your feelings, to hell with everything and everyone else. It wreaked havoc with family for sure.

True. I call this myth the Soulmate heresy.

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

Lynn-D:

All feeling animals have sex for pleasure.

Are there any “unfeeling” animals?